College Applications, Financing, & more

[bros]

Feb 26, 2010 10:12:09 GMT -5 Mayleng said:

Healthy, with regards to an Engineering major, how much do you really have to like math (particularly algebra)? My younger one (the one with adhd/ld in written expression) is ok in math (will get better if I push him lol!), but even though he is ok with it, he tells me he does not like algebra. I told him with his ld in writing, Liberal arts is not the way to go for him since there is a lot of writing. So I am thinking of what options there are for him now, so he can take electives in HS to see if he likes them. The good thing about their HS is that there are a lot of electives that is available. I told him to try them in HS while he has a chance even the ones he does not think he will like because he might find out that he really likes them.

They have to take a lot of calculus. Like up to calculus three or above

[shawbridge]

Many thoughts: I'm a thorough researcher and have just gone through college apps with one kid and my second is a HS junior, so we are going to visit our first schools next month but I've been researching them as her needs are different than others.

1. There are many, many colleges in the US so most people can find one.

2. In our neighborhood, kids apply to 10 schools. New England is painfully competitive (though they often apply to the same NE schools).

3. My son applied to 16 schools, but he was unusual in being qualified for the most competitive schools in the country (and wanted to go to a school where the kids were as smart as he is) and had serious LDs, which we chose to disclose. We just couldn't predict where he would get in. He got into 10 and was wait listed at 3. One of the rejections was from a safety.

4. SharonF is correct. Private can be less costly than public (or not). There are also lots of private scholarships out there, which are quirky. For example, Reading for the Blind & Dyslexic has some. My daughter's college counselor suggested she look for scholarships for kids with vision problems -- my daughter had very serious vision problems, though things are fine now.

5. When deciding on applicants, it is not necessarily harder to get in if you say you are going to major in English or Psych or Physics. The main exceptions to this are that engineering often has a separate applicant pool and some schools are trying to boost their female population in math, physics, chem, and engineering.

6. Unless your kid is planning to go to grad school in English, it probably doesn't matter if the department is in the top 25. What matters is if they are dedicated teachers who will interact with kids. In many fields (I don't know English), a high ranking is negatively correlated with attention to teaching.

7. A gap year was a fabulous thing for my son and for a number of kids. Good experiences during the year (though he also needed extensive surgery and had the recovery time) and had time to study carefully for SATs/ACTs/SAT II's and do a careful job on college apps. He's also a year more mature now that he's a freshman. My daughter intends to apply with her class but to take a gap year before going to college.

8. teacherabc, my daughter wants to be out of the state, and in particular, far enough that her mom doesn't drop in for breakfast. Of course, our son is in school 1.5 hours away and she doesn't drop in for breakfast. You might try to engage your daughter about what she might like about schools. Does your daughter like intellectual challenge? Does she like a warm supportive community? Although it sounds like it might be like tooth extraction to get this conversation started, it might help. Do you have an adult friend whom she might talk to (i.e., couldn't walk away from without feeling embarrassed even if she does so with you). My daughter is not introspective and she is very scared by the process -- apparently, she met with her guidance counselor (in her small school, they are called "college counselors") and broke into tears, nearly immediately, because she feels a lot of pressure. I have been doing the nudging, but have found schools that are reasonably high in quality but not cutthroat and feel (at least on paper/website) really good for her. I'm also finding some that should be relatively likely to admit her and hopefully at least one of those that admits in the fall, so we can take anxiety down. There is likely to be virtually no overlap between the schools my son applied to and those my daughter will apply to.

[Mayleng]

Feb 26, 2010 12:30:41 GMT -5 bros said:

Feb 26, 2010 10:12:09 GMT -5 Mayleng said:

Healthy, with regards to an Engineering major, how much do you really have to like math (particularly algebra)? My younger one (the one with adhd/ld in written expression) is ok in math (will get better if I push him lol!), but even though he is ok with it, he tells me he does not like algebra. I told him with his ld in writing, Liberal arts is not the way to go for him since there is a lot of writing. So I am thinking of what options there are for him now, so he can take electives in HS to see if he likes them. The good thing about their HS is that there are a lot of electives that is available. I told him to try them in HS while he has a chance even the ones he does not think he will like because he might find out that he really likes them.

They have to take a lot of calculus. Like up to calculus three or above

No, not calculus, say it isn't so. LOL!
My dh hated calculus.

[Mayleng]

Thanks for your thoughts shawbridge.

6. Unless your kid is planning to go to grad school in English, it probably doesn't matter if the department is in the top 25. What matters is if they are dedicated teachers who will interact with kids. In many fields (I don't know English), a high ranking is negatively correlated with attention to teaching.

It is not that I want my son to go to this school because the English Department is ranked in the top 25 in the nation. I was bemoaning the fact that this would make it much harder for him to get in, it was already difficult to get into this State Uni in the first place, but with English as his major, it makes it even harder because this Uni is very much in demand here. This is the closest one to us, and is the one my son wants plus it is also my husband's alma mater. Cost wise it is very reasonable. So keeping my fingers crossed.

[healthy11]

Mayleng, as others have said, engineering is very math-intensive. Most students in high school take algebra, geometry, Algebra2/trigonometry, and a pre-calculus course, if not a calculus course. At my son's well-regarded university, for Electrical Engineering, he will be required to take 6 Math classes: Calculus I, II, and III(which he's in now), Differential Equations, Matrix Algebra & Complex Variables, and a senior level Probability and Statistics course.

As an alternative, there are some 4-year colleges, both public and private, that offer programs in Engineering Technology, and the math requirements for that are usually just Calc I and II. It's more of a hands-on, rather than theoretical curriculum... Truthfully, even DeVry is supposed to have a decent program in Electrical Engineering Technology, and that may be another option for your son to consider, if he doesn't find something else from all the great elective choices that your high school seems to offer. (By the way, I know there are some schools that offer video gaming/programming options, but it may not be easy. My son is struggling in his required software courses because he often forgets coding details...you can imagine if a kid can't remember to always "dot his i's and cross his t's" in English, it's tough to get a computer program to run properly.) Has your son ever considered something like becoming an x-ray tech? There's high demand in the health-care fields...

[SharonF]

Mayleng--

You asked when the student will hear if they were accepted. Of course, say it with me now...that depends on the college.

Plus a few other things.

Most important, it depends on when the student applies.

For many colleges, the enrollment deadline is January 1st. On that timetable, colleges often mail out acceptance letters in March or April. But I know of kids who've been getting acceptance letters since December.

Some colleges have rolling admissions. That means they are constantly receiving applications and deciding who gets in or not. Those schools often have a relatively small number of applicants or they know what type of students they want--and look for that specific gpa, SAT, certain courses on the high school transcript, etc. Under rolling admissions, the college usually sends a letter of acceptance/denial/waitlist within 6 to 10 weeks of the student applying. Sometimes less.

Regardless, once the incoming freshman class is full, that's it. Any other applicant who meets the criteria is wait-listed.

Early Decision requires an early application (by November 1st or November 15th) *and* is binding. If the student applies there under ED and is accepted, he MUST go there and withdraw any application to any other college. If he is not accepted, he has time to apply to other schools.

Early Action also requires an early application (in October or early November) but it is not binding. The student can EA apply to several schools and will usually hear in January where he's been accepted. He usually has to decide by a certain date where he's going, usually by early spring. EA students are sometimes given admissions preference because they applied early, beating the rush and making things easier on the college admissions office.

My kids found that colleges were pretty quick to send responses. My kids applied in October and had their answers in January. Maybe that is not the case in other parts of the country.

Once students make their final choice, they notify the schools which accepted them but they don't plan to attend. Those schools then begin contacting wait-listed students to see if they are still interested. That process can begin as early as March, but some slots might not all be filled until summer. Again, it depends on the school, their deadlines, number of applicants, length of waitlist, etc.

[shawbridge]

Mayleng, I don't know UB, so what I'm saying may not apply. In general, most US schools, especially larger ones, just accept kids based upon grades, SATs, and extra-curriculars and don't have prospective English majors competing against other prospective English majors. If that is true, your son competes against the whole non-engineering applicant pool, which may be more mixed in quality than the prospective English major pool. Does UB have people state their majors? Do they have prospective majors compete in these sub-pools? I would think this unlikely because kids change majors several times (as a statistical fact). If they do, your son could put down undecided -- as mine did.

[Mayleng]

(By the way, I know there are some schools that offer video gaming/programming options, but it may not be easy. My son is struggling in his required software courses because he often forgets coding details...you can imagine if a kid can't remember to always "dot his i's and cross his t's" in English, it's tough to get a computer program to run properly.) Has your son ever considered something like becoming an x-ray tech? There's high demand in the health-care fields...

This would be my ADDer. I did try to direct him to the computer field, but being and ADDer he more than likely will have problems with coding.
No, he has not considered Xray tech. He is 14, lol! he has not considered much about anything yet. I am trying to direct him since he starts HS this Fall.

[healthy11]

Mayleng, one more "monkey wrench" that can affect some student's decisions, although it may not matter for your son since you're able to afford college without financial assistance, is the issue of financial aid.
It's often problematic for students who go the "Early Decision" route, to know or compare scholarship awards and financial packages from multiple schools, unless you've got a student who happens to be offered a "full ride, all-expenses paid" award. The FAFSA isn't completed until after January 1st in your student's Senior year (because it utilizes information from the family's prior year income tax return) so the colleges are going to be extending admissions offers without having a full picture of the applicants.
There are situations where students intentionally delay making a decision on which college to attend, by "negotiating" between schools. (ie, they may tell school A that they'd really like to go there, but school B has offered $x more, making the total tuition/room&board, etc. more affordable.) I'm not sure how effective this tactic is, given the current lousy economy, but it's one more consideration. (Note: if you delay a decision too long, the college could decide to withdraw the offer, but usually the only impact might be jeopardizing selection for which dorm your child gets into, etc, because usually they are handled on a first-come, first-served basis.)

[Mayleng]

Sharon, so let's say ds applies for Early Decision and gets accepted, then he notifies other school he is not attending. Can the school who accepted him with ED then decide later on not to accept him?

[Mayleng]

shawbridge, would it work better to declare a major or go in undecided i.e. would it sway the admission decisions one way or another

[Mayleng]

Healthy, that is a good point about the scholarship. I would probably only go for Early Admission on the one State School which is unlikely to give us any financial aid. But if my son decides that he wants a private school, that is a whole other ballgame. I would need some grants/scholarships for those.

I am surprised all your heads haven't exploded yet from having to go thru' this process with your kids because mine is about to and I am only just starting.

[healthy11]

If your son fails to meet the final requirements to get into a college, even though they gave him an ED offer, yes. (For example, if the college requires 4 years of math and English, and a student fails his last semester in high school, then he'd be in jeopardy. Perhaps they'd allow him to make it up in summer school, but it would likely mean he'd be unable to register for classes or get signed up for a dorm room until everything is complete.)
I do not believe the benefits of Early Decision outweigh the possible negatives for most students...

[Mayleng]

" do not believe the benefits of Early Decision outweigh the possible negatives for most students... "

Why?

[SharonF]

healthy makes an important point.

The acceptance letter may come BEFORE the financial aid package. Sometimes several weeks (months?) before. That's because admissions is based on the student's application package. But financial aid is based on your FAFSA. The FAFSA deadline for most colleges is Feb. or March--and with colleges sending financial aid letters in April or May.

I do know this: if your child is accepted at a school, decides to go there, and then you get a financial aid package you don't like, you can try to negotiate. This is especially true with private schools. State universities may not be as flexible.

When you fill out the FAFSA, it calculates your Estimated Family Contribution. If you compare the college's financial aid package to your EFC and you are being asked to pay a LOT more than your EFC, you can try to negotiate. But the college does not have to change its financial aid package just because it's above your EFC or because you asked them nicely.

We were told that negotiations work best if you have two schools vying for your child and you pit one college against the other--trying to convince them to offer more financial incentives. But that didn't work for us. Neither college budged from their original offer. Their original offers were very similar to each other, so dd went to her #1 choice. And we're paying 70% more than her EFC but only a little more than what we'd pay if she were at a state university.

I don't know much about the pros and cons of Early Decision. We never considered it because neither of my kids had their heart set on only one college. They applied in October to colleges with rolling admissions or December/January deadlines.

[shawbridge]

Mayleng, other than a liberal arts versus engineering divide, most schools don't pay much attention to declared major unless it is rare. For example, one of my son's good friends is a young woman who is deeply interested in geology. She'd gotten summer jobs in geology during high school. She's a pretty smart kid but not incredibly so. But, she may be one of five girls on the East Coast with a passion for geology and work experience for geology and wants wants wants to be a geology major. I'm sure that in her case, the novelty of it and the passion behind it helped her (as did the fact of being a female in a heavily male-dominated field). But, I'd listen to others as well, but I don't think it hurts to say undecided versus English or that saying English will necessarily hurt even if there are a lot of English major applicants. I think the choice of major helps if it makes you seem interesting and unusual and hurts if they don't have that major at the school (the kid shouldn't say he wants to be an international relations major if that isn't offered by the school -- seems like he's just recycling another application).

Typically, if you apply Early Decision, you agree not to apply to any other school and barring catastrophe to attend if admitted ED, but you find out in November (?) so you have a chance to apply to the other schools if you haven't gotten in. The advantage is that schools that are playing a game of making their numbers look good to elevate their ranking in the US News rankings. One way to do this is to have high selectivity (lots of applicants per spot) and the other is to have high yield (everyone you admit says yes). ED applicants raise the yield and thus they typically have a better shot at getting in (but a lesser shot at financial or merit aid because they have no alternatives).

There is also Early Action, that allows you to apply to other schools, including other Early Action schools. There is no commitment not to apply elsewhere and you don't have to go if you get in. Then there is Single Choice Early Action (Stanford and Yale have this IIRC) in which you apply EA but are only allowed to do this to one school.

ED works if a) the kid knows where he wants to go; b) the parents aren't so worried about financial or merit aid.

[healthy11]

Unless you've got a student who is so certain of where they want to attend college (ie, a kid who has always dreamed of playing sports on a particular team, or a "legacy" situation, where 2 or 3 generations in the family have all attended a specific school) then what are the benefits of limiting a student's options, ESPECIALLY in view of the early decision deadlines, which come before you'd know about financial offers from other schools? Kids often do overnight "shadow" visits during Senior year, and as you can tell, they continue to gather more information and think about different options/majors as their Senior year progresses.

I don't know if all colleges handle Early Decisions the exact same way, but I'd definitely ask about all of the limitations at whatever school you're thinking about applying that way. I would expect that if your son submits his application to colleges before Nov. 1st, he'd be doing the best that he could to increase his acceptance chances across the board. (My son actually got one application done to a college with "rolling admissions" over the summer, and submitted it as soon as the high school reopened in Aug. and could send out his transcripts...he got an acceptance letter from them by October, and it really "took pressure off" as far as knowing he already had someplace to go. Still, we did more tours and overnight visits to additional colleges from Dec. to April of his Senior year, and he made up his mind the week before the May 1st "drop dead line."

As far as going in "undecided," I want to clarify that it's not just engineering vs. liberal arts where it's important, but also if you have a child interested in performing arts, where there may be additional criteria, such as an audition, to get into a music or dance program. (I actually have a good friend whose daughter is at U. Buffalo in their dance program, and it was easy for her to get acceptance into the school, but a more complicated process and waiting period for them to evaluate all of the candidates for the dance department.....)

[Mayleng]

Thanks guys, you have been very helpful.

Yup, some of the colleges on my list has rolling admissions, early decision by 15 Nov, and others dateline December.

But, I'd listen to others as well, but I don't think it hurts to say undecided versus English or that saying English will necessarily hurt even if there are a lot of English major applicants. I think the choice of major helps if it makes you seem interesting and unusual and hurts if they don't have that major at the school (the kid shouldn't say he wants to be an international relations major if that isn't offered by the school -- seems like he's just recycling another application).

LOL! shawbridge. The schools I have put on my list all have English and a writing component in the majors. That was how I managed to compile a list for his majesty's (my son) consideration. Hey, one of my good friend teaches geology at a college here. Rocks and music are her passions LOL!


With all the great nuggets of information you all have imparted to me, this thread should be very useful for those who will be starting their kids' college process. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experiences.

[shawbridge]

Good catch, healthy. Performing arts and visual arts may be different.

Let's get your opinion: Do you think a school will judge you differently from an admissions perspective whether you say English or undecided?

[momfromma]

A lot of good info in here.

Just a few more point. My son applied to 4 colleges, none in early admissions, all with a declared major of Chinese. He got his first admission in December (just after Christmas), the second in January, the third one, which is a local university and the one he chose in March, and he got the rejection for the last one in April (he had already chosen where he wanted to go at this point and had forgotten about it).

I can concur with everybody else here that you need a high level in maths for engineering. My son university does not take people without pre-calculus for these classes, and then they ask at least 3 classes of calculus and higher level maths.

As for the question concerning English vs undecided, I think declaring the major will only matter if the application (essays and recommendation letters) support the choice of the major while his GPA and SATs may not. My son, for example, had an average GPA (from a hard school) and a weak SAT and middle of the road ACT. He had, however, a strong argument, great grades, and great recommendation letters if he was gearing his application toward a Chinese major. He chose to declare his major and was accepted where he wanted. I am not sure that he would have gotten it if he had been undecided.

Now, if a kid has a great GPA, a good SAT, and good recommendation letters, but not necessarily a strong preference and a strong argument to present it, it may be better for him/her to go for undecided and show how he is a great student.

[healthy11]

Now that I think of it, nursing is another major where you need to define your interests at the start.....
Getting back to the last question that shawbridge posed, I believe colleges do consider "undecided" applicants differently from declared majors. They always anticipate accepting a certain number of undeclared students, and likely have some "past history" that shows, on average, how undecided applicants eventually disburse at their school (ie, 30% drop out, 15% end up as business majors, 10% as education majors, 5% as English majors, etc.) but I think you have to consider the student's ability to "stand out" among whatever peers are in the same applicant pool.

There are usually a given number of professors within each university who teach a given subject. Obviously, most colleges want to ensure that each department has enough students to make it a viable major, but not so many as to overwhelm the current staff or dilute the program.

It doesn't do a university much good to have, for example, a geology department with 5 profs, and only 10 students, while the computer science department has 10 profs but 250 students clamoring for admission. The college would probably not be able to press a geology professor into service teaching computer classes, and they may not want to hire new instructors, and may not even have the physical resources of particular computer labs available, etc. While the university will probably accept every student who expresses interest in becoming a geologist, including those whose grades are mediocre, the university will probably "cherry pick" among the computer science applicants, and look for the most stellar candidates. That's what you'll be up against as an undeclared major, too, being compared against a larger pool of similarly undecided majors. Schools prefer that students have goals, even if the goals change over time.

In shawbridge's case, his son was exemplary in many areas, and had significant gap year accomplishments (I believe he was authoring a book, etc.) so he would stand out favorably among undecided students, and probably exceeded credentials of most of the students in virtually any department. Mayleng, I don't know enough about your son's background to say whether he would stand out among other undecided applicants at the colleges you'd like him to apply to. It certainly wouldn't hurt him, in any case, to join more activities related to writing, if he thinks he might like to major in it (ie, be on the school newspaper or yearbook.)

I can't recall if it was in the old Schwablearning archives, but we had a similar discussion thread, with a lot of great information about the college selection/application process. I specifically remember Sharon_F talking about schools predetermining the "makeup" of their student bodies ahead of time, and then selecting students to fill those spots. It "hit home" to me, because at the time I had a good friend whose son was so-so academically, but he played the bassoon, and some other uncommon musical instrument, and he was actually recruited and offered a scholarship by an in-state public university to fill a spot in their marching band. My friend never thought mediocre kids at public universities could get financial help, but they'll make exceptions if you're a student who can help fill their quotas.

[Mayleng]

Healthy, he has signed up for creative writing, and writing composition for his senior year. He is also writing a fiction book (Fantasy genre), he has composed 3 songs (his passion is to write songs). I was going to actually post under coffeetalk to see if any of our members were in the music industry to ask for tips on how he can "sell" his songs.

But I am glad you brought up shawbridge's son authoring a book. I had not thought about putting that in his "resume" or the forms I have to fill in for the colleges and I have to add the songwriting part too. He wrote both lyrics and music. The one song he composed for his Music composition class in school was pretty good if I do say so myself (I was actually surprised).

[jisp]

Mayleng,
There was just an article in the New York Times about how some colleges (Tufts and University of Chicago) are accepting UTube videos as part of the application process. Also many colleges have an arts supplement, where you can submit a recording or a piece of work and have it reviewed by somebody in that department. My son submitted an art portfolio as part of his application.

Good luck with this brutal process. BTW, I definitely think that the admissions process is a bit random at times. I just saw a friend of mine whose son was admitted early to University of Rochester with a scholarship. I was a bit shocked for many reasons relating to this particular kid, but the admissions process is not always opaque and so sometimes it seems like good kids get rejected while other less motivated and capable kids get in.

[teacherabc]

My head is swimming with all of this information as well as everything else that I have heard. The college application process seems to be a morass, no matter what kind of student your kid is. I understand why early decision isn't good. But does the same drawbacks apply to early action? Do they withdraw offers if you don't decide within a certain time?

In the school I teach at, there have already been acceptances at state schools. So obviously they do not wait until later to make their decisions if you get your apps in early.

My daughter will almost certainly start as an undeclared major. She does not really know what she wants and is not the kind of kid to be pigeonholed. She decides when she is ready.

Shawbridge, my daughter, like yours, is not introspective. As far as I know, she does not have an adult friend to go to, though it is not like we cannot talk about stuff. Judging from past experience and things that she HAS said, she does indeed enjoy intellectual challenge. She does not like to be pressured from the outside because she exerts enough pressure on herself from the inside. Therefore, I believe she would not like any place that is cutthroat at all. On the other hand, she does not need to be coddled. She does not need to be anywhere that is warm and fuzzy. She does not need pushing or a whole lot of direction to get stuff done in terms of classwork. On the other hand, she can get intimidated somewhat easily by administrators or higher ups, even though she has no trouble whatsoever speaking out in class--when she has had to take care of problems at school and needs to go to a guidance counselor or AP, it usually takes several days of pushing, like with HP. At first she wants tp go to a large school with a lot of course offerings. Then she said it didn't matter so much, though her high school and middle school were both big and she has loved them. The high school she attends is similar to college in that there is a lot of choice in courses and classes do not meet every day--schedules vary. They do not coddle you--if you are not independent and work without someone to stand over you, will not succeed. The same was true with her middle school, though to a lesser degree since kids are younger. The biggest issue has been location--country/city, region. She said that most of her friends plan to go to state schools and since she tends to be a sheep--well...I do not want her to limit her options especially since I suspect that many of her friends have less good credentials than she does. She has close to a 95 average and she is taking the SAT next month but did extremely well on the PSAT.

[Mayleng]

jisp, that is very interesting. I do think that with music (he is not going to go in for music), they probably would want the kids to audition. His love of music is on his own terms ie. he doodles in it rather than join the band, orchestra and dedicate himself like the kids who are really into performance. So he would not have the necessary credentials to be a music major. He writes songs (music and lyrics), sings and makes recordings at home and in his music tech class. I would actually like him to take a music business course at some point in time if he really wants to pursue this.

Does sending extra stuff like an art portfolio, music recordings, or sample of a book he is currently working even though it is not asked by the colleges a good initiative? Even though he is not necessarily going in for music or art but rather English/Writing or even maybe undeclared? (since he will probably change his mind after i have done kazillion hours of research for him).

[shawbridge]

It's hard to say whether sending extra stuff helps. Brown says that sending an art portfolio cannot help but can hurt. I do recall the schwablearning post that healthy was mentioning and it is excellent. Whether undecided (presumably a large group) is worse than English (another large group) is unclear. I think unusual can help. healthy, you are probably right that my son had enough stuff that he was unusual and stood out without a declared major (good at math/science including 800's and 5's on all math/science tests, writing a novel and good at English despite being highly dyslexic, competing in Moot Court and campaigning for Obama, partially homeschooled with a rec from Superintendent of Schools saying that he was one of the brightest kids she'd come across in 25 years in education).

My son is still completing his novel, which is also a fantasy novel. He's working too hard at school to attend to it. But, they clearly noticed it, because at freshman orientation, the freshman were greeted by the Dean of Admission who noted what a wonderful and brilliiant and fabulous group of kids they have. Without naming names, they described a few kids, including one who was completing his first novel with enough details that when kids later talked to each other, they could tell it was him. Given that there are something like 425 or 450 freshman, people knew him. So, they noticed, mayleng. It could be worth noting.

teacherabc, I think we're fortunate that my daughter is willing to take guidance from me as well as her friends [and contrary guidance from her mother]. We bought Princeton Review and College Prowler books. I picked out several reasonably high quality and apparently non-cutthroat. and asked her to read about them and tell me what she thought about them. She also looks at the website. She was enthused by them. Then we talked about their characteristics and what about these might be attractive. Key criteria -- not a lot of distribution requirements, project based learning, non-cutthroat atmosphere, supportive teachers, no more than 60/40 female to male ratio and preferable 50/50. She is concerned (and the guidebooks mention this) that if it is much above 60/40, the social environment can be competitive and girls compete to get boys by becoming more available sexually. I told her she could go to a school with a big engineering school. But, she found a quote in one of the books, that says at one of the engineering schools that "the odds are good, but the goods are odd." Supportiveness of the environment is important for her as she is bright but doesn't have the confidence she should and can get anxious/panic.

I've told her repeatedly that the key criteria for me are that it is a place where she can learn, have fun, feel comfortable and prepare for the future and that she does not have to go to a big name school (though she's smart enough to do so). She's clear that most of the super-prestigious schools are too cutthroat. So, we're looking elsewhere, which feels right to me.

[Mayleng]

shawbridge, did your son have to send sample pages of his book, or just mention that he is writing one?

[shawbridge]

mayleng, he sent sample pages (I don't think the whole first chapter, though I can't remember with certainty) and an expression of interest from an editor at a big publishing company. Because he was partially homeschooled, we sent lots of stuff as evidence of the work in his homeschool courses.

[healthy11]

"The odds are good, but the goods are odd!"
Shawbridge, thanks for bringing back memories ~ they were saying that even when I attended an engineering university many years ago!!

Sadly, it's accurate...While the ratio of men:women was about 10:1 at the time I was in school, half the guys at my college didn't speak much English, and were often in the U.S. to earn a degree, then return to their native countries and pre-arranged marriages. That meant the "available" pool of guys was more like 5:1, however about half of them clearly couldn't relate to anything other than their books and electronics, and the thought of speaking to a girl was enough to make them cross to the opposite side of the street and avoid all possible contact. (I used to work in the Registrar's office, and even when they had to come in to drop/add classes, they couldn't look a girl in the eye.) That brought the ratio of males:females was down to about 2:1, and about half of those guys were already "involved" or dating someone, so in the end, it was probably about 1:1 as far as the actual "eligible" number of guys and girls.)

As it happened, I didn't meet my husband at college; I ended up meeting him after I started working, and he was a summer intern! I kept in touch with him about one of the projects, after he returned to his college out of state, and we started dating several months later, then got serious after he graduated. Only afterwards did he get his master's degree from my undergrad alma mater, but we didn't attend at the same time....(yes, I'm the "older woman.")

Truthfully, another thing that makes it difficult to date engineers attending school is the amount of additional homework they do, compared to most liberal arts majors. I would definitely not advise any girl to pick an engineering university to look for guys, unless they know what they're getting into ahead of time, and like "talking tech," too.

[shawbridge]

A joke I heard last night in that vein: What is the difference between an introverted mathematician and an extroverted mathematician? The extroverted mathematician stares at your shoes.