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Post by teacherabc on Dec 20, 2014 7:27:08 GMT -5
The father of one of my students, a tenth grader, is asking for my recommendation as to whether he should request a 504 or an evaluation for the student. I have only worked with the student for a couple of months (he was transferred from a parochial school so he wasn't in our school last year). What I have observed/know about him is the following:
--Writing is very difficult for him. Quite often, he will sit there for 20 or 30 minutes thinking about the task or looking at the task paper before beginning to write anything, if it is an in class writing assignment. He tells me that the same thing happens at home with full scale essays. What he ends up producing is often incomplete if he is not given extra time. Even when he has more time, his writing his technically good (he knows essay structure and mechanics are good) but very lacking in details. However, his analysis is usually spot on.
--Physically, handwriting is sloppy but readable and he presses hard into the paper.
--Reading comprehension is good, but it takes him longer to read than some kids (though not as long as some others).
--While he claims he is organized, he seems to have tremendous difficulty actually handing in work that he has completed. He is always getting points off because he doesn't hand in work on time when he has done it. In the classes I have been with him, I have seen him put the papers in his bookbag and have had to remind him to hand them in. I was told yesterday that he never handed in a multiple choice quiz in science, even though his teacher was sure he had done it (and multiple choice is his strong suit).
--Focus/attention/other: seems in the average range for a teenaged boy, except when it comes to writing tasks where his attention drifts quickly. His oral comprehension is good--he can (and does) participate orally and is always spot on.
The student initially came to my attention when the principal put him under house arrest (so to speak) because he was failing everything--set up a lunch and after school schedule and he started coming to me since I was in the two classes of his that were the toughest for him because of the writing.
He also has emotional stuff going on. In an assignment about the Holocaust, they had to write their feelings about what survivors had gone through. It took him two hours to write a paragraph because he simply could not make any kind of emotional connection. He said that it happened so long ago and he didn't know the people. We had a discussion about empathy and he knew the definition of it but said that he did not get the idea of it or understand how to feel it. This raised some concerns and I spoke to dad who is now trying to get him counseling. Dad said that four years ago, when he was 11/12, he was living with mom upstate and something happened and dad went and got him and brought him back to the city and the child (and father) went through a contested custody trial. I don't know why and didn't ask but in any case, the child refuses to have contact with mom at all and I am guessing that his lack of empathy is a wall or defense mechanism.
I am not sure what to recommend to dad because I think in many ways, the kid is on grade level. I haven't tested his reading (which I might try to do when we come back from break) but I suspect he is on grade level. Math is not a problem at all. Any imput?
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Post by healthy11 on Dec 20, 2014 12:05:31 GMT -5
I think it could be helpful to first ask the father why he transferred his son to the public school this year; I wonder if he has any reports from the boy's previous schools that would indicate ongoing writing problems, or other difficulties. Emotionally, I'm glad to hear the father is trying to get his son counseling. A bright student with learning and/or attentional issues can still appear "on grade level in many ways," so I would not use that as a reason to ignore his struggles. I believe requesting an educational evaluation now would be the best approach; it seems like the boy could very well have a Specific Learning Disability in Written Expression, which is an IEP eligibility category, in which case he could possibly qualify for more than just a 504 accommodation plan. emedicine.medscape.com/article/1835883-workup
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Post by bros on Dec 20, 2014 12:22:30 GMT -5
Pressing hard onto the paper could indicate an OT issue. Request an evaluation in all areas of disability, then if an IEP isn't needed, the team can always recommend a 504.
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Post by teacherabc on Dec 20, 2014 13:48:21 GMT -5
Apparently, the school had a work study program that kids had to do. They had to work outside of the building at a job. His dad says he was reported multiple times napping, on the computer playing, having headphones on when working. They switched him to in school job assignments but he didn't complete all of the assignments.
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Post by healthy11 on Dec 20, 2014 15:27:18 GMT -5
If the boy is napping a lot during the daytime, I wonder if it's because he's awake at late hours of the night playing on the computer (which the dad should be cognizant of) or if he might have a medical condition like narcolepsy? Again, it's good that the father is seeking counseling for the boy; hopefully, if it's narcolepsy, the counselor would also notice it, so he could get appropriate treatment.
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Post by teacherabc on Dec 20, 2014 15:30:20 GMT -5
I don't know if this is true, but in other conversations, the kid is swearing that he gets enough sleep--that even though he could get by on less, he tends to go to sleep by about 11. But who knows.
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Post by teacherabc on Dec 20, 2014 15:32:34 GMT -5
Also, I would be shocked if dad doesn't limit his game playing. I know dad is really monitoring him this year. He took away his cell phone so it wouldn't be a distraction. It would be hard for me to believe that if he did that, he also didn't take away gaming as well.
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Post by healthy11 on Dec 20, 2014 15:41:27 GMT -5
If he's really getting enough sleep and not gaming into the wee hours of the night or abusing substances, then the boy's napping could very well have a medical cause. Even if it's not narcolepsy, it could be blood sugar level issues, etc. Hopefully, the boy has had a recent full physical exam to rule out any problems. (Most educational evaluators ask when the student's last physical was done, so if the dad hasn't already had his son see a regular Dr. and have bloodwork drawn, he should schedule that soon.)
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Post by teacherabc on Dec 20, 2014 16:58:57 GMT -5
Funny--I haven't seen that in school at all. Either he is bundle of energy or calm and alert.
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Post by kewpie on Dec 23, 2014 13:08:17 GMT -5
If he is doing the work and not turning it it plus having problems with expository writing, this points to Executive Functioning issues. He is having a hard time organizing his thoughts but probably unable to put in to works why. It may not be lack of empathy re the paper, he just doesn't know how to put his difficulties into works and "not knowing the people" just sounds like something he pulled out of thin air as an excuse. There is also the possibility he may have some autistic tendencies which could explain the empathy thing too. Lots of ASD people suffer from EF issues too, so it could be an overlap.
Re sleep: Is there a possibly this kids is still growing or has sleep apnea?
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Post by teacherabc on Dec 24, 2014 7:56:44 GMT -5
He is at the level with papers that not only had he forgotten to turn in a quiz, he also had someone else's quiz in his backpack that he had grabbed by accident. As far as the empathy, he doesn't have the social issues that I have seen other kids with autistic tendencies have; he is very social, has friends, etc. He doesn't have the literalness I have seen--he gets jokes and sarcasm, symbolism, and all that. I really think he cannot find that part of himself; dad says he has never expressed how he felt about what happened with mom. I had a conversation with the kid where he said he knew the definition of empathy (he has a reasonably good vocabulary) but that he doesn't have it and explained that he never knows what to feel about anything or how to feel badly about what anyone goes through--he doesn't seem to have any problem articulating himself verbally when he wants to, but in writing...it takes him a very long time, and he uses as few words as possible. With dad's prodding though, he went through the writing process--wrote a paper and revised it more than once and got a 79. For him to just go through the process when he wanted to quit was amazing because he had never actually finished writing an essay in English class (he also recently finished writing one for the first time in Global, although it was pretty minimalistic). He also has academic deficiencies in the writing because his Catholic school hadn't even addressed having to cite information or how to use external sources, so that was a real struggle because he didn't get the idea at first. He is a fast learner though and has a good memory so I only had to go through the citation once and he got it.
And I am guessing the kid might still be growing since he is just 15. I am not sure about the sleep apnea.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 19, 2015 0:34:02 GMT -5
Update on this...a couple of weeks ago, dad decided on the 504, but hasn't done anything since he has been focusing on getting the counseling in place, which it is now. In addition to showing lack of empathy (but awareness that he has this lack and understanding that it is a positive quality), he doesn't really express any kind of emotion. Even his friends are aware of this; one of them referred to him as "cold hearted" and has planned to make him watch The Boy in the Striped Pajamas in an effort to get him to react. We are showing Schindler's List in class; I will be taking the kids who need to work on their essays in order to pass. I swear, he has delayed on the essay to avoid watching the movie and left the permission slip on the table and told me to take it. He told me why should he watch it; he would be bored and fall asleep.
He is either lying or is in total denial. He is clearly failing science and health badly. He tells dad and me that everything is fine. He says he gave in work in science and the teacher told him he would grade it. Although this is theoretically possible, the last conversation between him and the teacher I heard (I arranged for the teacher to pop into our room because he had a free period), something was said about trying to find some work he did somewhere in the classroom. However, given that he needs to get an 85 to pass (because of the 55s the first two marking periods), and the number of things still showing up as 0's, I am highly skeptical. As for health, the numbers haven't changed in weeks. Today, dad asked me for all of the teacher's email addresses, including the classes the student is passing and sent emails to them, I believe in an effort to find out what is going on more directly. His dad honestly thinks the kid believes that everything is okay rather than simply lying. I just don't know.
I am wondering if his lack of motivation and other things I am seeing are symptoms of depression. Depression presents itself in different ways--on the surface he seems okay (he smiles and jokes around). Below, he is apathetic, sleeps a lot, and lacks focus. The executive functioning issues are worse than I thought--one assignment that did show up, the science teacher found in the kids folder and the kid swore he gave it in. The kid also swears that his organizational system works for him.
Even when faced with the fact that he would get no credit for a draft for a class where he is on the cusp of passing or failing, he couldn't get it together to get the draft done. Dad said the kid went to his aunt's house and when dad got home from having eye surgery at 8:30 pm (it was due at midnight), the kid didn't work on it, and the dad told him he wouldn't get credit, and didn't begin to finish his draft until late the next day.
As for video games--dad has removed access to them except on breaks, and has blocked internet access for most things (i.e. no Facebook). Dad has taken away the phone. He says he has tried to take away all distractions. To me, though, the kid does not appear to be unusually distractible, even by other kids. That is why I was thinking it might be some sort of depression. It's not that he is never distracted, but he is not unusual in this respect and he is capable of concentrating.
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Post by eoffg on Jan 19, 2015 5:30:58 GMT -5
TeacherABC-,
While we think of Empathy in relation to others. The other side of it, is Self-Empathy and recognizing and understanding feelings about one's self. Which is the foundation of having empathy with others.
But the Mother plays a crucial role in this, through recognition and understanding of a child's feelings. Which provides affirmation to a child, that these different feelings that they have, are okay and have value.
On the other hand, is a Mother who dismisses and ignores a child's feelings? The result of this, is that a child learns to dismiss and ignore their own feelings about themselves. Sort of learns to turns them off, as their feelings are just a distraction and aren't even worth noticing.
So that this is what he could have come away from his Mother with? Or rather without?
Though this makes me wonder about how this could be related to his school difficulties? In regard to his not finishing work, and not handing it in when he has done it?
While we can 'know' that some work needs to finished by a certain time? It makes me consider how important it is, to also 'feel' that it needs to be finished on time? Where perhaps 'feeling' is the real driver? Which makes us 'care' about our work.
Also to 'care' about his own emotions. Where you wrote that: 'he doesn't really express any kind of emotion'. But perhaps this is because he has been given a sense of self, where his emotions aren't worth expressing?
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 19, 2015 7:47:01 GMT -5
What you are saying makes sense. If he simply lacked empathy, that would be one thing. However, he also lacks emotion or concern about himself. The things that embarrass other kids, that they want to keep to themselves, have no impact on him. I tell him we will talk about something later, in private, and he wants me to express it then, in front of others. It is obviously all connected. I don't know what it was that his mother did to lose custody; dad doesn't feel comfortable sharing and I know the kid won't. Whatever she did could be part of it as well.
We will have to see what the marking period brings. I suspect that despite his lack of concern about the classes he is failing, he will fail them nonetheless. In our school, the kids that have more serious issues going on are transferred from the Guidance Counselor to the Social Worker. Even if he fails the two classes, he is borderline as far as that is concerned (the ones that get transferred often are failing more and this is also his first semester at this school because he transferred from a Catholic school). I am thinking of asking for this; the Guidance Counselor doesn't provide a lot of attention, especially when she knows the kid has outside counseling. The Social Worker provides more attention; connection to the family, the counselor and help with the executive functioning issues.
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Post by healthy11 on Jan 19, 2015 10:00:05 GMT -5
It certainly sounds to me like the boy should have both a physical exam with full blood work, to verify he has no underlying medical health issues, as well as a mental heath evaluation. I don't know what kind of private therapist or outside counselor he'll be seeing, but I hope that person can refer him to an appropriate psychiatrist to assess for depression or whatever else is going on. At school, it does seem like connecting him to the Social Worker would be a good idea, too.
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Post by bros on Jan 19, 2015 12:27:22 GMT -5
I agree with healthy, sounds like he needs a physical and mental health workup - maybe it's something as simple as a thyroid issue.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 19, 2015 18:06:32 GMT -5
The dad emailed his teachers; either the kid is in deep denial or is just lying. He said he didn't have anything to do. The teachers emailed him the list of assignments and the assignments themselves.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 20, 2015 19:17:20 GMT -5
Everything is coming to a head with this kid. He has been lying. He told dad last night that he had done all the corrections on his paper I had asked him to do, which wasn't nearly true. Today, he said dad must have misheard or misinterpreted and he said he had told him that he had done some (thought that would be an overstatement). He lied to dad and to me about science, saying that he had handed in things that he he didn't. Today, perhaps for the first time, the kid actually exhibited some emotion, albeit negative. During lunch, I overheard him saying to someone else that he wanted to hit his dad (obviously he didn't) but it was disturbing because he didn't even seem to care I was there, and he was snappy toward me, and then the next period, he basically warned me (not in an overly aggressive way) to leave him alone, that people had been annoying him. So I did. I am supposed to be having a conversation with dad in a little while but I am having the feeling this is a much bigger problem than I thought. HELP?
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Post by bros on Jan 20, 2015 19:39:09 GMT -5
It sounds like he might need an IEP, or at the least, outside counseling.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 20, 2015 19:47:41 GMT -5
He just started with outside counseling last week.
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Post by healthy11 on Jan 20, 2015 22:02:51 GMT -5
While due to privacy rules no counselor can discuss a particular case with anyone else unless given permission by the patient, that doesn't mean his father and/or you can't try to help, by informing the counselor of your observations and concerns. Since the father helped to select this counselor, he must know who the person is. If he's agreeable, I wonder if you could write a letter, and have the father give it to the therapist?
Again, I hope you can convey to the boy's father the importance of having a full physical exam, in conjunction to addressing his mental health. I'm starting to wonder if some kind of substance use may also be a factor...
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Post by dw on Jan 20, 2015 23:13:08 GMT -5
Kids lie a lot, and kids with LD's lie a lot to cover up their problems, esp around homework and schoolwork. But, I am concerned that the student was verbally aggressive with you. It is pretty uninhibited and agressive to tell a teacher, in school, to leave him alone, i.e. give a teacher an order and a warning. I also wonder, along with healthy, if there are substances involved. How can warning you, the authority figure in school, be interpreted as anything but aggressive? I think a visit with the principal is in order,for counseling about this behavior, or whatever means you find use for such aggressive behavior.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 21, 2015 5:50:21 GMT -5
Well, here is the thing, though. I MIGHT be distorting things a little. His words, coming from anyone else, I would definitely have considered as not a warning but a message that they are having a bad day and a request to be left alone. I think it is perhaps because he never shows any kind of emotion that I interpreted as more than that. In effect, because of what I know about the behavior he tends to exhibit, I may have "overread" his words. I have no way of knowing if there are substances involved. If so, they aren't being done during the school day (like, some kids go out to lunch and indulge). He can't (and doesn't) go outside to lunch (he has permanent lunch detention for academic reasons and has decided that I am his warden); he is in the school building from 8 a.m. (the unusually early hour that he voluntarily appears at my door) until at least 3:30 (or 5 when he stays after school). What he does in his off time I have no idea and it could account for new things coming out. However, there are other new factors too that can be causing him to act out more (and dad says he is acting out at home as well--not a lot and not badly, in comparison to some other kids--but still): it is the end of the semester in a new school (he was in a parochial school last year), he had always gotten by in middle school and in 9th grade with little effort (he was asked to leave the Catholic school because there was an outside internship that he couldn't do; it wasn't academic) and now suddenly he has to work to succeed, and he may be a bit uncomfortable because a teacher has taken the time and effort to get to know him and he is not so good with being "known" and he is now, for the last couple of weeks, in counseling and that may be bringing up difficult things. He has a ton of things that are unprocessed from the past--the custody battle years ago and whatever his mom did to him that prompted that, as well as feelings about mom.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 21, 2015 6:26:12 GMT -5
Also, he doesn't have an LD--at least he isn't diagnosed with one. At this point, I would say that his reading skills are pretty good, and he is excellent in math. He struggles with writing in terms of getting what is in his head down on paper, although he has few, if any difficulties with grammar, sentence structure, spelling or organization of ideas (mostly with adding details--all of it is as short as possible). And his executive functioning skills...well, what executive functioning skills. His father wants to apply for a 504--not sure that he would qualify for an IEP. However, he hasn't done anything on it yet.
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Post by healthy11 on Jan 21, 2015 9:17:50 GMT -5
Please forgive me, but I'm confused. In prior posts, you've said, "he had always gotten by in middle school and in 9th grade with little effort...and now suddenly he has to work to succeed." You also say that "his reading skills are pretty good, and he is excellent in math." His writing is a struggle, and he lacks EF skills.
I'm not an expert in every parochial school, but based on personal experiences with my son, and speaking with other parents whose children have attended Catholic high schools, they are generally more demanding than public schools, unless the student is in an Honors/AP Track at the public school. I can't understand how the boy didn't have to work to succeed before, although it might have been easier to compensate for EF difficulties if the private school was a smaller setting, and perhaps there was a single "homeroom" teacher who gave out and collected all assignments.
As far as his writing difficulties, he could still have a disorder of written expression, which is an IEP eligibility category. (My son was very good in math, and his reading was okay, but writing was his major academic difficulty, too.) No matter what, I'm going to reiterate that a comprehensive physical exam for the boy should be one of the first things the dad arranges. I don't know if drug testing can be part of it, but just because the boy doesn't go "off campus" for lunch doesn't mean he is "clean." He could have used substances prior to coming to school, or have some drugs in his backpack or on his person, or get them from another kid...Some high schools, including my son's, banned the carrying of water bottles, since some kids put alcohol in them. Unfortunately, there are many ways that this boy could be "under the influence," but if he's not, then that, too, would be helpful to know when trying to identify what's affecting his mental health.
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 22, 2015 6:54:08 GMT -5
Right now, we are at a critical point; yesterday he was rude and he challenged me. During his lunch detention (which he serves for academic reasons), he sat and did nothing. I told him I was not going to sign him in if he chose to do nothing. Unbeknownst to me, another teacher in the room had signed him in, even though she is not in charge and I didn't ask her to. When I told him that I wasn't going to sign him in, he told me the other teacher had, in other words telling me that he was signed in and there was nothing I could do about it. I ended up sending an email to the AP in charge telling her that the teacher may have signed him in but he had done no work. He then proceeded to do nothing the next class period but sit and read his Manga and talk to another student (I have him right after lunch).
I sent the dad an email relaying what had happened and saying that this change in attitude is fairly abrupt (days). I spoke with my coteacher because the arrangement we had come to with the student was that if his grade stayed about the same as it was last week (which was about an 82), he can come in during Regents week to do extra credit, get it up to an 85 and pass (he had failed the first two marking periods, but had worked consistently for a period of time to bring his grade up almost 30 points). A final paper is due tomorrow and to my knowledge he has done little revision on it. I told dad, and am telling him today, that if he does not get in a final paper which incorporates most of the revisions that he and I discussed, by Friday night, and does not turn in one assignment, he will not have that opportunity to come in and do the extra credit, and he will fail the class and attend summer school. This would be a shame because he really did pull it together, only to fall apart in the last few days. However, to further extend deadlines and give him more opportunities will enable him to manipulate the system. I know dad will be on board with this.
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Post by healthy11 on Jan 22, 2015 9:32:17 GMT -5
I'm going to reiterate that a comprehensive physical exam for the boy should be one of the first things the dad arranges. I don't know if drug testing can be part of it, but just because the boy doesn't go "off campus" for lunch doesn't mean he is "clean." He could have used substances prior to coming to school, or have some drugs in his backpack or on his person, or get them from another kid...Some high schools, including my son's, banned the carrying of water bottles, since some kids put alcohol in them. Unfortunately, there are many ways that this boy could be "under the influence," but if he's not, then that, too, would be helpful to know when trying to identify what's affecting his mental health. Have you suggested the dad get the son a physical yet?
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 22, 2015 18:41:14 GMT -5
Not yet. I plan to be broaching the subject later this evening when I speak to dad about today's latest incident...
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Post by teacherabc on Jan 22, 2015 19:26:24 GMT -5
I got cut off just before I got to address this point; hopefully he will call me back.
However, he did say some some illuminating things. He said that he has noticed a pattern that if he established a rapport that is too friendly with his son that he will tend to, sooner or later, take advantage of that and then dad will have to put it in his place and that is probably what he is doing right now--in other words, the kid needs a firm hand and life lessons. Dad said that he probably doesn't believe I will fail him because he has been given opportunities and help...So, unfortunately, it is looking like I am probably going to have to fail him for him to believe that it could happen.
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Post by bros on Jan 22, 2015 21:09:26 GMT -5
Sounds like the student might have some manipulative tendencies?
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