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Post by teacherabc on May 5, 2015 21:35:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I had forgotten that they wanted kids who went on the trip as freshmen last year and he wasn't in the school then. I mentioned the trip but told him I would have to see if he was going to be eligible to go. He seemed eager because he said he would stop by to see me in the morning. I really don't worry about how he will act. While he can act stupidly every once in a while, I have seen him act maturely in a group situation (which is why there are kids I eliminated from consideration-frankly, I would worry about their behavior.
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Post by teacherabc on May 7, 2015 5:08:27 GMT -5
We missed each other yesterday but I emailed him and told him that the organizer of the trip said no but there was a possibility that he could change his mind and asked if he really wanted to go. I did not want to try and get the organizer to change his mind (I didn't really think it was fair to disqualify him because he wasn't in the school last year and if he had been here. he definitely would have gone). I got a really nice email back saying how much he wanted to go and how excited he was about it. I have NEVER seen the boy say or express excitement about anything at all. So I emailed the organizer and told him this--the organizer is one of our other SPED teachers who knows exactly that emotions are not this kid's strong suit--and end result is he is going. The student said he will come in at 8:30 this morning to get the permission slip and do some English work.
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Post by healthy11 on May 7, 2015 15:41:32 GMT -5
It sounds encouraging...let us know how it turns out.
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Post by teacherabc on May 7, 2015 22:33:33 GMT -5
We will see. Meanwhile, we had the newly added parent-teacher conferences tonight. His dad stopped by to see me on his way out, even though I don't teach him. He was not amused at his report card. I did point out that there was some improvement. I told him that nonetheless, I wanted to take his son on the trip because I am looking at things more long range and this is all a process. Rome wasn't built in a day. I am hoping that the boy will feel more connected to the school and more comfortable and this is going to take time. Dad agreed, although I suspect there was still some yelling when he got home tonight.
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Post by healthy11 on May 8, 2015 8:03:27 GMT -5
For dad to not show concern would also send the wrong message. I hope dad shares the report card with the boy's therapist, so the therapist can better understand what's happening in school, and hopefully help the boy improve.
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Post by teacherabc on May 8, 2015 18:07:12 GMT -5
I didn't mean to suggest dad shouldn't be concerned or even yell at him...I know that the kid will be going to Saturday school. Dad spoke about him being compelled to come after school. Unfortunately, it will probably be a few weeks until we have his initial because often the meetings can bring about that change. I have seen that he has been hanging out in my room again--last time that led to him hanging out and staying to work. So, we will see. He is excited about this trip and I am hoping that will help. He was telling his friends about it...unfortunately, that made a few other kids a bit upset that they haven't been asked.
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Post by teacherabc on May 14, 2015 18:00:46 GMT -5
So...most of the testing (all but one test) has been completed. The boy has a 117 IQ. I haven't had time to look at all of the subtesting (I know math was very high) yet. However, the school psychologist told me today that she doesn't believe that he would qualify for an IEP on any basis other than Emotional Disturbance, although she is talking about having his psychiatrist come in for the meeting. She suggested possible having a 504 instead of an IEP because of the stigma attached. I told her that my concern is that he definitely does better with two teachers in the room. She said that we could program him for ICT classes anyway. She said, oh he doesn't need it for math or science. I don't believe this is the case; he is actually failing those classes (ironically, not English or History). I feel that he has executive functioning issues--disorganization, doesn't hand in things he has, can't manage time. She said it isn't lack of executive functioning. She had the opinion that he can be organized, can manage time but doesn't--believes it is depression of bipolar disorder. We spoke about the writing--the psychiatrist suspects ADD (no official diagnosis as yet) but school psychologist seems to feel it is not ADD--i.e. that he could write, but somehow it is the depression.
And I finally found out what happened to mom. She was deported. Abandonment issues much? Psychologist feels that these issues are so repressed that they are leading to the whole lack of empathy stuff and lack of emotion. That we agree on. I will need to look at the subtests, do some research. I don't want dad to be blindsided into a 504--when it doesn't offer the same protections as an IEP, simply because people may be afraid about an IEP based on ED. I know that when we have a basis to go on LD, we will do that. But I haven't been in a situation before when the choice is between an IEP based on ED and a 504.
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Post by eoffg on May 15, 2015 9:10:57 GMT -5
While we think of empathy in relation to a concern for others. Another side of empathy, is concern for one self.
Their has been considerable research into how a baby/childs interaction with their mother, establishes a foundation of empathy with the 'other'. But what hasn't been looked at? Is the establishment of empathy for one's self? A concern for one's self?
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Post by bros on May 15, 2015 9:15:01 GMT -5
school psych cannot officially diagnose.
also if the school psych wants the private psychiatrist to come in the meeting, hopefullt they haven't said that to the parent - then hte school might have to pay the fees for them to come
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Post by teacherabc on May 15, 2015 14:57:16 GMT -5
This is what I was thinking, bros. While our school psychologist is better than other ones we have had, we have had some issues with her lately. One of the problems I have is that while she is knowledgeable, she does sometimes talk as if she knows more than she actually does. If the psychiatrist does diagnose him with ADD (or with something else that would qualify), then he can get an IEP under Other Health Impairment. She is a psychologist and not a doctor and she has only met with him perhaps three times, so I don't think she is really qualified to diagnose him. She is pretty insistent that he doesn't have executive functioning issues; that he has the ability to do all these things but doesn't. I am guessing that is based on numbers I haven't yet seen. What I am not sure about is why the psychiatrist hasn't made a diagnosis yet. It seems to be talking a while. Since the school psychologist is saying that she doesn't think he would qualify for an IEP for LD on account of the numbers, but perhaps on ED...but she doesn't want to do that, would be appropriate for me to tell the father that he might want to push for a diagnosis? I wouldn't want to go much further than that because I haven't had the chance to talk to her again today. But is that going too far?
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Post by healthy11 on May 15, 2015 21:59:45 GMT -5
Unfortunately, even getting a diagnosis of ADHD doesn't guarantee an IEP, and it's important for everyone to realize that an individual like this student CAN have more than one condition (ie, ADHD and depression.) My opinion is that it's critical to get an accurate diagnosis, so that the boy can get assistance and accommodations not only for school, but "for life." (In other words, don't try to "pigeon hole" the boy into a diagnosis just to get him an IEP, but really try to figure out what the boy's issues are, so he can get appropriate treatment and/or therapies going forward, even after H.S.)
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Post by teacherabc on May 15, 2015 22:06:26 GMT -5
I didn't mean to try and pigeonhole him into a diagnosis. However, frankly, there is the consideration that he will be more likely to be successful on state exams with writing with accommodations and has been more successful in classes with two teachers. And one thing that everyone agrees on-there is something very wrong-the only question is what. However, it seems to me that regardless of the what, something can and should be put in place that would afford him the accommodations he needs.
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Post by healthy11 on May 16, 2015 8:42:47 GMT -5
Believe me, having had to argue with the school system in order to get my own son some interventions and accommodations, I understand the frustrations (his IQ was 30+ points above your student's.) I'm sure this boy can benefit from help, but I want to be sure his diagnosis is correct, so that his needs are properly met. (If depression is part of the picture, then perhaps a combination of medication and therapy can help, such that he won't have as much difficulty expressing himself and his writing would naturally improve.)
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Post by teacherabc on May 16, 2015 16:46:26 GMT -5
I am supposed to speak to dad tomorrow. Obviously, I am not going to talk about diagnosis because I don't know and it isn't my place. But it isn't just that he needs a diagnosis just to get the IEP, though it might help. From the beginning, it has seemed to me like the clinic is trying to avoid doing its own testing; it wants us to do the work. I think dad needs to perhaps press the clinic to do what it needs to do and if a diagnosis doesn't come in time, they can sign off on a 504 in the interim.
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Post by teacherabc on May 18, 2015 12:19:35 GMT -5
I spoke to dad and it was a good thing since he has an appointment with the clinic tomorrow. The school psychologist still had one more test to do, essay writing, which was the big one. She does not believe it is ADD but all psychiatric, as a result of his experiences with his mom, which I was told more about today and which are ugly. And I was told today that he is going to be moved to the Social Worker's caseload, from the Guidance Counselor, which will provide more intensive case management services.. I am glad about that since the Guidance Counselor is of the opinion that he just needs to get his act together.
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Post by healthy11 on May 18, 2015 22:22:00 GMT -5
It does sound like a positive step to have him seen by the Social Worker instead of a regular guidance counselor.
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Post by teacherabc on May 18, 2015 22:56:04 GMT -5
I have thought for awhile that our 9th/10th grade guidance counselor is remarkably unempathetic so this is definitely good. The psychologist thought he needed someone more "maternal." The social worker is definitely interested in meeting with him.
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Post by teacherabc on May 22, 2015 17:03:18 GMT -5
I finally saw his test results...high IQ, all subtests high. The lowest one was processing speak and that was still 70th percentile. Working memory was 95th percentile.
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Post by healthy11 on May 22, 2015 20:48:30 GMT -5
With such a high working memory, I doubt he's dealing with ADHD. It may very well be emotional/mental health issues; I do hope they can figure it out, and get him appropriate help.
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Post by teacherabc on May 22, 2015 21:45:06 GMT -5
That is why the psychologist was so sure it was not ADD. I think it is emotional/mental health issues. We had a "disagreement" for lack of a better word. After arranging to take him on this trip, he turned around and asked another teacher about being her assistant chaperone. I thought this was really rude and then when I tried to speak to him about it, he was further rude, saying to just make a trade. I was at the point where I was seriously considering dropping him and asking someone else, which would've meant he didn't go at all. But then he reached out to me. He first apologized for what happened today when I tried to talk to him He then said that he was oblivious to the fact that what he did in asking the other teacher was wrong. I believe him because this is pretty consistent with his overall lack of empathy skills--he couldn't put himself in my place and I think this kind of thing would not bother him at all.
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Post by healthy11 on May 22, 2015 22:05:11 GMT -5
My son lacks empathy as well. Under the circumstances, since your student didn't realize he had done anything wrong, it's encouraging to hear that he apologized to you after you pointed out the issues...
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Post by teacherabc on May 27, 2015 20:51:09 GMT -5
It was determined, after educational testing that unless he has a diagnosis that might qualify him under Other Health Impairment, he is not otherwise eligible for an IEP, but would qualify for a 504. The psychiatrist has been seeing him for a few months now but has not yet made a diagnosis. Over a month ago, the father gave me a SNAP scale from the clinic which I completed the next day and faxed to the psychiatrist. There is now a meeting scheduled for June 9. It is projected at this meeting that the IEP will be denied and we will put in place a 504. BUT...today the school psychologist said the psychiatrist never got my form--turns out they did. However, they want them from other teachers as well. Dad, apparently, forgot to get them to the other teachers and just did so today. This creates a timing issue potentially. Also, is it me, or does this seem excessive to get a 504? The psychiatrist will not sign off on it unless they see there is a problem across the subject areas. While it is true that the other 504s I have dealt with involved medical doctors, I have never had anyone ask for information from the school before filling it out.
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Post by healthy11 on May 28, 2015 11:41:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but I don't have enough direct experience with anyone other than my son re: 504/IEP, so I hope other people will be able to answer.
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Post by michellea on May 28, 2015 13:13:36 GMT -5
In order to qualify for a 504, one must have a disability that negatively impacts his performance. The psychiatrist must be doing his/her due diligence to understand the behaviors across settings. If it occurs only in one setting, perhaps the issue is something other than the diagnosis such as personality conflict, difficult subject matter, bad peer grouping etc.
I know it is frustrating given the mix up with your forms and the dad's neglect. But, as a professional, the psychiatrist must follow protocol.
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Post by kewpie on May 28, 2015 15:24:27 GMT -5
Did anyone do a brief on this kid? How can anyone be sure there are no EF issues? Many times professionals diagnose ADHD or ADD but it is actually EF because the symptomology is similar. This is why meds may not work ..because meds do not help with EF.
EF also can significantly affect expository (NOT story telling) writing skills. It sounds like this kid cannot write a composition without a LOT of guidance. He could possibly qualify under Written expression disorder (SLD) or EF (OHI). Many kids with EF can have very high IQ's but they cannot cohesively put a decent work product together independently that is worthy of their innate intelligence.
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Post by teacherabc on May 28, 2015 16:41:18 GMT -5
He tested high across the board on all of the subtests (95th percentile on working memory, lowest was processing speed at 70th percentile). I think this is why. I don't think OHI is out of the water, but I think it is there, it is going to be related to a mental health diagnosis. Problem is that the psychiatrist is taking a long time to diagnose. And while I understand "protocol" I also know that we have never, ever had any doctor ask for so much documentation to sign off on a 504 and with the Regents right around the corner, I get the overall issue but I have concerns as a teacher that he is not going to pass the Regents without the extra time. While he is strong on the multiple choice, he is not strong enough to pass on the strength of that score (not even sure if it is possible--but he is only getting anywhere between 35 and 41 right out of 50, not 47 or 48 (we do have a couple of those).
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Post by eoffg on May 29, 2015 7:49:51 GMT -5
This is interesting, as it sort of highlights a distinction between a 'Disability' and a 'Learning Disability'? Where his IQ test, subtest scores show that he doesn't have a Learning Disability'. Rather he has a possible 'Mental Disorder', still to be diagnosed. As opposed to a 'Learning Disorder'. Where he has a 'Disorder' that also effects his learning and demonstration of his learning?
504's were first put in place to recognize Disabilities such as being: Blind, or Deaf or confined to a wheelchair. Where the idea of an IEP as a 'remedial plan' was absurd. So that instead it legally defined 'accommodations' that were entitled to, throughout life.
While this is more easily defined with 'Physical Disorders'. It is far more difficult with what might be defined as 'Mental Disorders'? Given their complexity. Which may effect the ability and way that they participate?
Where a 504 can define a plan that enables one to effectively participate in society.
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Post by kewpie on May 29, 2015 11:14:37 GMT -5
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Post by michellea on May 29, 2015 15:04:40 GMT -5
I have seen mental health disorders such as anxiety result in difficulties in the executive functioning realm. For instance, one aspect of executive functioning is initiation. People with anxiety often have a difficult time getting started because they are "frozen" by the anxiety. Executive functioning and ADHD often go hand in hand. But one does not need ADHD or low processing or working memory to have Executive functioning issues. I agree that the BRIEF is a good instrument to consider as well as other tests such as Rey Osterith complex figure, Wisconsin card sorting, Delis-Kaplan Executive Function System, Trail Making test etc.
I know it is frustrating given the timing of the Regents. Unfortunately, the student exhibited these issues long ago and nobody stepped in until this year. I understand that the student shouldn't have to pay the price, but the Dr. shouldn't have to compromise their integrity and due diligence just because a test is coming up. It's too bad that the student struggled for so many years without intervention.
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Post by teacherabc on May 29, 2015 15:17:37 GMT -5
I don't think I am going to be able to persuade her to consider EF, when she has seen that is working memory is super high. I will take a look at it though. As far as nobody stepping in, he transferred into our school only this year from a parochial school where, from what I understand, they appeared to do a lot more handholding and were a lot less rigorous (I heard that they still passed him even though he never handed in essays). Last semester, when I identified him as a student in trouble, I contacted dad immediately and he got him into counseling, plus we set him up with a trained mentor. It took awhile for dad to decide what he wanted to do, but we worked pretty quickly. As it stands now, two teachers have provided the forms and I think they will be fine with that, and I will be able to get it to the therapist tomorrow.
By the way, we had that gigantic trip with 140 freshmen and this kid was an amazing assistant chaperone. He really stepped up. He checked all of the kids in our group, kept head counts, and totally navigated us everywhere we needed to go (I get lost in a paper bag). He was pleasant and responsible.
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