Difficult 16 year old son

[beth]

I am looking for some ideas about how to manage my son. He is a junior in high school, getting mostly A's in honor classes at school, and is currently running cross country track. But he is a real pill to live with. Last night my husband and I picked him up from a cross country meet at school at 10:30 pm. He had gone on the bus that morning with his team. We spoke to several kids who excitedly told us how well the team did and how well ds did. Our son was one of the last ones off. He apparently had fallen asleep. As we put his stuff in the trunk of the car, he ordered us to be quiet, that he didn't want to talk, and that he wanted to sleep. My husband asked him as we were leaving the school whether there was a play at school this week because there were a lot of cars there. He barked back. And then a few minutes later my husband asked him if he was hungry. He went on a tirade about how he had told us to shut up and how we didn't listen. We told him his behavior was totally unacceptable. He told us he didn't care.

Fast forward to this morning. How to handle. My husband left early this morning with work and I went downstairs after ds was up. He was watching TV and playing on his Ipad. I gave his his Adderall which he argued about but took. He now is back up in his room. Would you just try to talk to him about his rudeness or give him a firm consequence like not taking him anywhere today? He is not allowed to go in the car with any of his friends and left his bike at a friend's house so this would mean that kids would come over here (which they often do) but he couldn't go anywhere else.

He is a demanding prickly kid who is very intolerant of anything that isn't exactly the way he wants. He is the youngest of three kids and the only one still at home. This year he has been spending more and more time up in his room. He makes an excuse almost every night to not spend much time at dinner with us.

Just to give you a better idea of what we are dealing with he was upset earlier this week he was very upset because my husband had a bunch of stuff to do after he picked him up from cross country. My husband wanted him to help load the car because it would be faster. DS said he was tired and hot from running 9 miles and wanted to go home. After my husband loaded the car, ds drove home and my husband got on his case about some of his driving. He was really mad when he came in the house. When we tried to talk to him at dinner about the situation, he got up and went out on porch to eat, slamming the french doors hard. He did this three times going in and out and we told him he could not drive the rest of the week. He has his permit and is eligible for his license but we have not allowed him to get it.

And yes, this is the same kid who was drinking last summer.

He has been on 20 mg of Adderall since 8th grade and just yesterday we upped it to 25 mg. We were hoping it would help his behavior but apparently not. We have had problems since late last spring with him including him refusing to come with us when we were leaving to go back to the cabin we were staying in at a park this summer. He wanted to stay and fish some more but his sister needed to get going to drive back to where she lives. He absolutely refused to come and took off. We left him there (there was nothing else we could do) and later he ran the 6 miles back to the cabin. We didn't let him fish for a month.

[dihicks6]

Is counseling an option? He sounds like some typical 16 yr. old teenagers, i.e., backtalk, just want to stay in their room, etc., but I wouldn't take the crap when/if I went to pick him up from crosscountry. I know people won't agree with me but he'd be finding another way home if the attitude didn't improve. You don't get to talk like that to people that are doing you a favor, because if you do, you lose the favor. I wouldn't try to drag him out of his room, except for meals, but sometimes there is just nothing they want to do WITH you. You said you 'tried to talk to him' about the situation. In my case, there wasn't much discussion. I just told them what was and then gave them the consequences. I tried just to be matter-of-fact about it (hard), and present it as just the way it was. Tough situation. Do something for yourself today!

[healthy11]

Beth, when I read your post, I felt as if you could be describing my son, especially when he was in his teens. While he's gotten somewhat better as he's gotten older, he still exhibits periods of outright rudeness, low frustration tolerance and no patience, especially with me. He seems to interact better with my husband/his dad, but I'm not sure if that's because I'm viewed more as a "taskmaster" who is usually asking him about things he doesn't want to be bothered about, or if it's because my husband intersperses his conversations with "fun" topics, like tuning his motorcycle or video games.

Just this past week, in fact, our son called around 6 p.m. to ask "who he should make the rent check out to," and I could hear voices in the background. I wondered if there was someone in his apartment, and he said, "no, I'm playing the new Grand Theft Auto on Xbox ~ it's really cool."...I mentioned that I'd heard it broke sales records, but was full of vulgar language. He said, "Yeah, but the game is really well-done." Anyway, I told him to look at his lease to figure out who to send his rent to, and said "goodbye." He called back again around 9 p.m, and asked some other question, but when I answered him, I could tell he wasn't really paying attention. I heard voices in the background again, then he yelled, "What? I couldn't hear you." I said, "If you're going to call us, how about turning off the electronics and listening? Have you done anything else besides play the video game for the last 3 hours??" He immediately retorted, "Just shut up. Forget I even asked you anything" and he slammed the phone down. (I KNOW how he can lose track of time when he sits in front of a screen, and doesn't accomplish anything constructive. We've been asking him for weeks if he's thought about taking the Professional Engineering exam, or Master's courses, and he's claimed he's had no time to look into them. It's clearly that he doesn't WANT to look into them, not that he doesn't have time to...)

Anyway, I'm sorry I don't have any "words of wisdom" to impart; I can only say that I can empathize with what you're dealing with. Negative consequences (like taking away TV privileges) never seemed to have much effect with our son; neither did positive consequences, for that matter (like saying we'd buy him something if he was polite and did all his chores without reminders for a week.) Honestly, it seems like it's only through "natural consequences" that our son learns the most...when HE decides something is in his best interest, he seems to act better. It amazed me that on all of his internships, he received good reviews and recommendations from his bosses; I don't know why he displays such a different personality at home, especially with me, but I guess it's better than if he was rude with his teachers/bosses, and nice with family. Your son sounds like he's also doing well at school/on the track team, but not around your house. I guess all we can do is take things one day at a time, and keep trying to set good examples for them to follow.

[beth]

With ds at least, I could talk to I am blue in the face and it makes no difference if I just lecture him. In that case, I am much better of as you suggest dihicks just giving consequences. Not that I always do, mind you, but it is the better route.

But what he has a hard time with is seeing anyone else's perspective. So what I ended up doing after I stopped steaming was telling him how his dad and I came to pick him up and found out from other kids how well the team did and that he had cut almost a minute off his time. I told him how excited we were to see him and did he know what it was like to have him basically shut down the conversation and tell us that we weren't to talk to him. He told me how tired he was and that I didn't know what it was like to run a 5 K race. I told him that I didn't but that all his team mates were talking to their parents about the race and they had ran it too. He then told me he fell asleep and they didn't and that was why he didn't want to talk. I then told him that I understood that he was tired and didn't feel like talking but that still was not an excuse to behave badly and that he needs to make an effort to be civil even if he didn't feel like it. He didn't say much after that.

I then handed him a typed list of what he had to do before he could do anything with his friends. He did it without arguing or even trying to negotiate to do some of it later.

Sigh.

Interestingly, healthy, I was talking to my older son at the end of summer about his combative style when he doesn't get what he wants. I told him that the way he was behaving was not OK and if he behaved that way on a job, he would have trouble. He told me that they loved him this summer, which was true. I told him that either nothing happened that he disagreed with or he behaved differently at work. He told me that he controlled his behavior at work but "do you know how hard that was for me"?

So I do think some of what we get is the let your hair down version of our kids.

I think I like the hair up version better.

[healthy11]

"I think I like the hair up version better." Me too!!

[jisp]

Beth,
I assume you work with a child-adolescent psychiatrist who is responsible for your son's medication. I hope you have made the psychiatrist aware of your son's behavior change. If not you should.

One concern I would have is that there is an emerging mood disorder. Why? Because of a comment your son said about how hard it was to control his behavior at work. That statement tells me that what he is experiencing when he gets angry and irritated may be above and beyond normal teen irritation and anger and be more biologically based. Also that your son talked about falling asleep when his team mates did not. If this is the case then your son is going to require a different approach to his medication because the adderall may be making him worse and contributing to his mood issues.

It is not unusual for mood disorders to emerge in the teen years. And it can be tricky to diagnosis because most Adolescents meet the criteria for having a DSM dx of a mood disorder. But a trained psychiatrist can help you tease apart what is considered normal struggle and what is above and beyond that. But based on my own experience with mood disorders and based on what you wrote, it sounds like your son is definitely dealing with some mood issue. It might be minor and something that therapy and a small medication adjustment can address. But it also might the beginning of a bigger mood issue that would require major intervention and if not treated could lead to hospitalization and bigger challenges.

[beth]

jisp--for better or worse these are two different kids I was referring to. It is my older son, age 20, who made the comment about how hard it was to control his mouth sometimes at work. He doesn't explode, even at home, but he very aggressively argues with you when he doesn't like what you say. It really isn't an appropriate way to behave and thus my comment about work.

My youngest, age 16, def. is moody. He has a hard time regulating himself. I wouldn't make too much of the falling asleep in the bus though. I don't think he was the only one--there were several others who staggered off the bus late. They had ran a race about 3.5 hours from the school. My son I know was awake 30 minutes prior to arrival because he had texted me when they would get in. He just isn't very flexible.

We had him in counseling in 8th grade and into 9th grade. I think it helped us more than him. He was very opposed to being there. We put him in counseling after he was close to being expelled from the parochial school he had attended since he was 3 years old. This is when we put him on the adderall too. He had been diagnosed the year earlier with ADHD but refused to take medication. The school trouble made it impossible for him to refuse. His mood was def. better on the adderall than off. And his teachers who did not know we put him on medication, could see a big difference. It is in the last six months that it seems that the adderall doesn't have much affect anymore.

[dwolen]

In the spirit of the idea that sometimes it helps to know it is not just your family where this happens...the scene you described is exactly what happened many times in my family when my dd was a teen, except for the details of the track team, gender. Emotional dysregulation. Also, I have a friend who is a adolescent probation officer for the juvenile court (MSW). She says that often the kids who are really respectful of their parents are the ones who commit crimes and misbehave/disrupt at school; they are afraid of their parents, so they behave well at home. This is seen sometimes on the news or parent teacher conferences when parents are so shocked or deny that their little angel is arrested/in trouble at school.
But the kids who behave well in the outside world tend to be the ones who treat their parents like@#*!, are disrespectful to their parents. Your son takes your positive regard and love for granted, were as the kids who are are afraid of their parents are feeling they have to earn all positive regard and love.
Well, I kept telling myself this during my dd's middle school/adolescent years, but it was very hard. I was very patient in my approach. My dh thought I let my dd walk all over me, and wanted to take a punitive approach, with a lot of explosive anger on his part. I did not think I was letting my dd walk all over me at the time, because I did set limits on her behavior and enforced the rules, but I could not control her anger and sulky behavior. I tried not to take her yelling and screaming personally. It was more difficult because dh and I were not on the same page. Dh, it turns out, has emotional dysregulation, having a similar emotional/LD pattern as dd.

In young adulthood, what has helped my dd the most is meditation practice, begun at age 22, 3 years ago. She is so much more emotionally controlled. I am happy that pattern of emotional outburst has not continued into another generation. If I could redo adolescence, one of the many, many things I would do is start yoga or martial arts, or both, in middle school, and do it with dd. Perhaps the track team, with the intense exercise, serves a similar function. Who knows how your ds would be without exercise? Who wants to know??

[Mayleng]

Was his adderall changed from brandname to generic, or was the generic brand changed if that was what he has been on. Just last yr, the pharmacy changed my son's Metadate to generic unbeknownst to me, and I could not figure out why he was so quiet, moody, not eating, not sleeping all the time. I thought it was just hormones, since he was 16 at the time. It all came to a head when he had a physical altercation with one of his best friends at school and got suspended and another time had such an out of control argument with me that it scared me. You have to understand the shock of this since my son is the nicest, nicest, kindest boy you will ever meet, this is a kid who would not have a favorite teacher because he did not want to hurt their feelings, he would not tell me who was his fav. It was so out of character, that even his principal and school staff were buffled and when his teachers found out about this episode, they asked him what they could do to help him, and consoled HIM instead, His friend told the school that my son did not mean it, and did not even want to report it. I did not put two and two together until a few months ago when someone here told me that there was a generic version of Metadate CD (which my son has been on since he was 7 yrs old with no problems), and the pharmacy has been sending me the generic which looked exactly like the brandname. We have since changed. It seems the generic made him feel angry all the time, and he did not know why.

If there has been a sudden change in your son's moods in the last 6 months, I suggest you look into his medication.

[beth]

dwolen--Thanks for sharing. In freshman and sophomore year of high school I saw that when my son ran, he did much better. In spring he plays lacrosse. Lots of exercise but not the distance plus I think the kids are different too. But this fall has been rough too.

I do agree that you don't always know what is going on in other people's homes. I over heard how one of my son's friends was talking to his mother and was shocked at the disrespect. This child has spent a lot of time at our house, including spending the night many weekends, and has never been anything but polite to me.

mayleng--that is scary. My son has always been on generic but there have been two different manufacturers. I know because the pills were tan and then blue. The tan was first and I think they have been tan some of the time in the last six months but I will look into it.

[healthy11]

Beth, the color and shape of Adderall tablets is related to their dosage; even from different generic manufacturers, the same dosage pills should be the same color. www.drugs.com/imprints.php?action=search&drugname=adderall

My son's generic Adderall had been coming from Barr for several years, but the most recent order came from Teva...(The label of the prescription bottle will state the name of the manufacturer.) My son hasn't started using the Teva ones yet; I'm not sure if I should mention it to him ahead of time, or just see if he notices any difference...

[beth]

healthy,

The tan ones he took look just like the pictures as do the new 25 mg ones. The blue ones however do not. The manufacturer is Activis. They have 3060 on them, which is what the prescription bottle says they should have. I looked up the manufacturer and they do make the drug.

Not sure what to think.

[jisp]

Adolescence is such a hard time because it in and of itself is a disorder worthy of a dx code in the DSM.

Beth just based on what you write I still think it would be worth getting him a re-evaluation, just to make sure. Teens grow and their metabolism changes and there are tons of shifts within the brain. Adolescence is when new disorders such as anxiety and depression crop up. Psychosis can start then. It is a challenging time. Also if your son is using substances that could be interfering with his mood he might be more comfortable sharing it with another neutral adult rather than you.

Finally I had three kids who were dx with a range of mood disorders (from severe to mild). One thing that I learned from our children's doctor is to not engage with my children emotionally. If they are disrespectful to me I need to call them on it and make it clear that is not allowed. But at the same time, they are allowed to be "Angry". Your son might be angry with your husband for giving him a hard time about his driving and that might upset him and he might indeed need to leave and go eat dinner on the porch. But SLAMMING DOORS is not allowed. And it might be that when your son is tired and feeling bad it is not a good time to discuss the driving situation, but make it clear to your son that when he feels ready you are available to talk to him about it. If your son says, "I don't care" when you tell him his behavior is unacceptable, you need to tell him that you do care, because being rude and not communicating will only create problems for him later on in life. In my own personal experience when my kid's were unwell and having issues with depression and mania they often were unable to process their actions. So rather than reacting to their rudeness, I had to say, "I am sorry you are not feeling well but please do not take it out on me." So rather than locking in on issues around their behavior, DH and I were acknowledging that they were feeling agitated and irritable.

[healthy11]

Beth, does your son use regular Adderall tablets, or Adderall XR capsules? I was referring to the tablet version of Adderall; I found articles that said Activis was approved to make generic AdderallXR last year....http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129415&page=2

[empeg1]

I may have another take than other people. Your son sounds like he is prickly indeed. Does he have a hard time with transitions? Does he also have difficulty with sensory integration?

My youngest also can be prickly. If she is agitated or feeling overwhelmed, she will also tell me, don't talk to me right now. I have worked with her to say the above in a more polite way. I used to feel offended when my dd told me not to talk to her until a therapist encouraged me to listen to what my daughter was saying. I found that once she had some space, my dd could then be social. That and she felt listened to.

So, I know it does not sit well to have a kid tell you he does not want to talk when you have come to pick him up at a meet. You were excited. And, I know that other kids were talkative. But, comparing what other kids do often is not helpful. Why not listen to your son's request next time? Don't ask about school events, etc. Given him space. One further thing, though, let your son know, asking for quiet is okay, telling a parent to shut up is not.

Ditto, for getting on your son's case about his driving after the meet, when your son already was showing some agitation, etc. It is about timing....I know, why handle a kid with "silk gloves"? What I found with my youngest dd, is that by being more aware of what I was doing and by listening to her requests, our relationship got much, much better, without needing consequences or grounding. Today, at 21 years of age, my dd is a thoughtful, polite young woman, who still needs her space at time, but who is becoming a delightful adult.

[beth]

I honestly think that empeg that you have my ds. He is prickly and has a hard time with transitions. He is not flexible. And yes, I agree to a certain degree with you.

After the door slamming incident, I picked up my copy of the Explosive Child. I bought the book years ago because my son did not seem to learn from consequences and he would spiral. So this is not really new behavior---it is more like a re occurrence of behavior that had been much better since he has been medicated. A couple things stood out to me--one empathy, two warnings.

It may have helped my son if my husband had acknowledged that he was tired and hot and wanted to go home. Instead, my husband was pretty annoyed that ds complained but did not help. And I told my husband that his timing to get on ds case about driving wasn't the best. That if he knew ds was already irritable that he should let things go unless it was a safety thing. But my husband is not exactly flexible either.

My husband did tell him that he would need to wait the next day also. My son got very upset and wanted me to pick him up instead (cross country is in the park where my husband's office temporarily is located). I couldn't because I had a meeting at the same time in another city. Son managed to get a ride home and solved the problem. So warning absolutely helps.

I wasn't happy with my son's response to us when we picked him up from the cross country meet but was quiet and didn't say anything to him until he blew up. It was my husband who was asking him about the play and then whether he was hungry. I cringed when my husband asked him about the play because I knew that would irritate him. He isn't interested in plays even. My husband is.

I am torn here. I agree on one hand with you. However, I don't know if my husband will ever be able to do what you suggest as far as being totally quiet in the car after son says to do so. First of all because he doesn't think he should have to but honestly also because he just can't be quiet. My husband talks a lot and to have a 15 minute drive when he is excited and has to keep quiet just probably won't happen. He has his own ADHD. When I have tried to talk to my husband, he gets mad at me and accuses me of blaming him instead of holding our son accountable.

So I am walking on egg shells between the two of them.

We do "cater" to ds a lot. Sometimes I feel like he rules the house and we are his servants--he doesn't want to talk in the morning, he is outspoken if he doesn't like dinner ( I had broiled pork chops the door slamming night and they were tough which made him upset too).

jisp--several of your responses are really good ones. I do think it is a mistake to get pulled into his emotional state. But it is hard not to--the outcomes when we do are never good however. I will try to remember your responses because I think they will help.

How would have you responded to the slammed door? We told him it was unacceptable the first time he did it but he continued to go in and out and slam the door. I am thinking we should have intervened and sent him up to his room without dinner after he did it the first time. What do you think? It is hard because I think after running and being late he was at his last straw and we might have had a more explosive situation.

I do think that we could have done some things differently, as Empeg suggests, but what do you do when you are face to face with defiance and a child who has no resources to cope? Noone is going to be a perfect parent all the time.

And is the fact that he has no resources to cope indicative of a mood disorder? He gets stressed out and overwhelmed more easily than many other kids.

And healthy--he is on Adderall XR.

[beth]

And empeg, do you think it really is to much to expect that ds could have a couple minute conversation about how he did before telling us he is tired and doesn't want to talk? Maybe I shouldn't think this given his difficulties but it seems like he should be able to make that effort if we are going to make the effort to come and get him. It shouldn't be all on his terms--which is what it sometimes feels like.

[kewpie]

You may want to try LENS if you can find a provider in your area. Since it is a short process, it doesn't mean the kid has to spend an hour in couceling. My middle ds was getting difficult to live with (not to mention he is ASD which brings inflexibility and limited empathy) and he has a lot fo the behaviors mentioned in these posts. He was also having some sleep issues. While LENS hasn't cured everything, it has made him easier to live with. Coincidently, he had an evaluation done recently and his IQ has gone up by 20 points altho his EF skills still suck and compromise his academic performance.
My LENS provider took ourmental health insurance.
www.listenandlearn.com.au/programs_LENS.asp

[empeg1]

Beth: I think part of what may help is to shift from thinking expectations to what will work. I know that if a person is highly irritable and outside of the processing zone, that further talk directed to them is just so much noise. The cortex shuts down and the language centers go first.

1) So, no, if your son tells you he needs quiet after a meet, then honor his request. He asked that you and your husband not talk to him. That does not mean that the two of you can't talk together, just don't talk to him. It is okay to say, okay, I see that you need some space and we will honor that. We will talk to you later about the meet. Then do so.
2) Slammed doors.... is your son responding to consequences, like loss of privileges, with a decrease in the behavior you don't want to see? If he is not, then why are you applying so many consequences? Did he slam the door in your face or in anger at something said or did? Or was he just slamming doors? If it was the latter, then I would simply ignore the door slamming until some time later when you can talk to your ds about how it feels to you to hear the door slamming and if he can come up with a different way to express his irritation.
3) See if your ds can get a ride from some of the X-country meets. It seems that post meets are difficult times, so why not reduce the amount of time you have to be involved. Also, maybe you can carpool with a friend of ds and the other parents.
4) I agree with Jisp. The more you can not get hooked into your ds's emotional upset, the better the outcome will be. That means keeping your voice modulated and your body language neutral. I have a mantra with my oldest dd, "it is brain". I also used to tell myself, silently, I do not have to give her the power to make me upset".
5) It sounds like your ds has a difficult temperament, in the least.
6) The more the cycle of discipline, anger and then more discipline and more anger gets going, the more nothing is going to work. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, where irritation and anger becomes automatic. So, again, is the discipline that you are doing changing your ds's behavior? If not, then it is time to take a different approach. It was important for my relationship with my youngest to heal, first.

[jisp]

Beth, this might sound extreme (but everything was a bit extreme with our kids) but we removed doors from hinges that were being repeatedly slammed. I know some parents put in hardware to prevent doors from being slammed....I am not a good house person so I don't remember what it was but it was something you could buy at a hardware store.

Many parents of kids with depression, anxiety and/or mood disorders talk about "walking on eggshells". That is one reason why I feel like a re-eval is warranted.

If the tantrums are explosive and the child is going to tantrum regardless of what you do then one technique that is used by hospital psych nurses is to talk to your son making an effort to lower your voice and slow down your speech toward as you finish a sentence. For what ever reason this is calming. It is also used by those working with animals.

Parenting teens is a lot about acting and being on stage. It isn't easy.

Also random disciplines and taking away privileges rarely work with teens and instead create a cycle of resentment and anger between teen and parent. The key to discipline is that it has to be directly related to the offense. For example one of our kids often was crabby and mean, like your son after going out with his friends on weekends and then having a sleep over. We pointed this out to our son and told him that we need to think hard about letting him sleep over at a friends house on weekends because of the impact it was having on his mood the following day. We did not take away his ability to see his friends and have a good time with them, we just made sure that he was home by 11pm. And what is amazing when you do practice this type of discipline is that normally the child agrees with the decision and is actually grateful for your interfering and setting limits. If track is too exhausting for your son and results in him being mean that you need to sit down with him (when he is calm) and ask him if he thinks doing track is too much. Don't take track away but maybe discuss what you can do so your son is not so prickly post track.

[beth]

kewie--I looked for a provider but didn't find one. Seems like it is only offered in a few places in the country.

empeg--you give good advice. My concern, and perhaps I am not looking at this correctly, is that my son will end up like my brother in law. He is prickly and difficult at age 55. His teenage daughter told him one time that he acts like that because it works--people leave him alone. And so I worry that expecting little from my son will result in an adult like my brother- in law---whose prickly ways have also cost him jobs. He is very bright but very underemployed. So I have thought that we need to push our son to be able to cope with more. For example, I have taken on errands--one errand when picking him up or taking him somewhere (not after a meet!) I have told him he can come into the store or stay in the car with the radio. He does about half and half. At first, he had a holy fit and I told him he could also walk home (grocery store is less than mile from home) and I just left him in the car He never did. Now he seems to be able to handle it.

It is in that spirit that I thought he could tell us a bit about a meet before telling us to leave him alone. He could push himself. The difference, I see now, is in the first I did not really need his cooperation. I just went into the store and left him in the car.

jisp the talking softly is a good idea. And the not easy part is so true. I didn't realize how easy my daughter was until I had the boys.

We have tried to be more natural consequence with behavior. I do know that our attempts to change his behavior a few years ago just led to more escalation.

I do think a conversation about whether he is doing too much is in order.

But I don't know how I will ever get him to consent to an evaluation--I just did it when he was younger but harder now because would have to miss school ect. I think I would have to do it over Christmas break or something.

[jisp]

Beth,
My son with a mood disorder never could handle random errands and stores. For one thing the florescent lighting in many grocery stores triggered him. I used to never take him on errands. As he got older though there were times when he had to come with me. We hd to buy him a suit and I could not do that without him. He debated going knowing it would be difficult. I knew at that point not to push him. Eventually I promised him that if at any point he felt like he needed to leave the store, I would without asking him any questions or debating with him to stay longer. He immediately decided to join me. Over the years we do indeed go shopping with him, but every now and then he will declare (even if the errand or shopping is not done) that he needs to go. I don't know if it is the crowds or the lighting or the noise, but it is clear that this young man simply can not tolerate being in that environment for too long. Fortunately there is the internet.

I don't think you can push somebody who is "prickly" or irritable into not being that way. I also don't think you can make somebody who is not overly social into a social butterfly.
You don't want to be parenting out of fear of what your son might become. But rather you want to focus on who your son is and how to work with him to build the best life possible given who he is.

You do not need a full neuropsychological evaluation but rather a visit to a psychiatrist. That can start with a visit you and your DH make to discuss your son's behavior. The psychiatrist can then meet with your son for about an hour and ask him questions to determine if your son's irritability is related to medications, hormones, mood disorder, learning challenges or peers. From there you hopefully can up with a coordinated plan for how to all survive while not constantly yelling or feeling like you are walking on eggshells.

I can tell you that knowing what I know about mental health most people who are prickly are actually dealing with some form of depression or mental health issue.

[beth]

jisp My son is very different than your son. He does not issues with shopping if he chooses to go. He likes to go to the grocery store in fact. When he feels like it. He also likes to shop for himself. He just doesn't like to go any where he doesn't want to go. He is pretty inflexible in that way. Perhaps I am not approaching this right but it seems to me he just doesn't want to be inconvenienced. He thinks his time is more valuable than anyone else's. That is why I have thought he needs to increase his tolerance.

We just got a new car because my car was totaled about a week and a half ago. He drove it and told me that he might just want to get his license now. When I told him he wasn't getting a license as long as he was behaving the way he has been, he seemed surprised. He told me that I had told him that he could get his license when he was 17 (you have to be 16 in our state). I told him that I never expected him to behave the way he has. He then told me he could get his license at 18. I said that was so but did not necessarily mean he could drive our cars. It will be interesting to see if this conversation has any impact on his behavior.

Your comment about prickly people and mental health is interesting. I have thought some of with my son is neurological but I also have thought that we have catered to him too much and that frankly he is a bit of a brat. That has always been challenging with him--separating out what he can't do versus what he doesn't want to do.

My son doesn't currently see a psychiatrist. So we wouldn't be talking to anyone we have a relationship with. Do you think that would still be worth the effort?

[bros]

I started seeing a therapist at 19. It was useful.

[healthy11]

" He likes to go to the grocery store in fact. When he feels like it. He also likes to shop for himself. He just doesn't like to go any where he doesn't want to go. He is pretty inflexible in that way. Perhaps I am not approaching this right but it seems to me he just doesn't want to be inconvenienced. He thinks his time is more valuable than anyone else's.... has always been challenging with him--separating out what he can't do versus what he doesn't want to do."

Beth, I've said it before, but the more you describe your son, the more he sounds like mine! We did see a family therapist with him when he was in H.S., and it was helpful in that it allowed us to "vent" to one another in front of a neutral 3rd party (our son was far more polite in the therapist's presence, and wouldn't shout "Shut Up" or slam a door and walk away when we were talking) but frankly, I'm not sure seeing the therapist had any lasting, long-term impact in terms of improving his patience level with us. Now that he's living in his own apartment without any roommates, and since he and his long-term girlfriend are "on rocky ground," he actually does seem to WANT to reach out and talk to us more often...Last night, he phoned just to ask what a good price for cereal was! Again, though, it's on HIS terms/timeschedule, as opposed to if we were to call him and inadvertently interrupt a TV show or video game...

[jisp]

Beth,
I given that your son is taking psychiatric medication, I don't think it can hurt to find a highly qualified child-adolescent psychiatrist and get a consult. I am not big fan of having pediatricians handle the dosing of psychiatric medications because the risks are not good when these medications are not being monitored properly and there can be long term consequences. The brain and metabolism are changing a lot during the adolescent years. So dosing of a psychiatric medication can be tricky and is not something that can be done just by following a height and weight chart. A good child-adolescent psychiatrist will be able to hear your concerns about your son and tease out if there is way to optimize your son's medication regime, which in turn might help out with some of the mood issues you are seeing. It could be that his stimulant medication is wearing off at the end of the day. But increasing your son's dose in the morning is too much and only results in him getting worse in the afternoons. It could be that he might benefit from a slightly different stimulant medication, as the brain changes and what worked when they are younger might need to be revisited now that your son is older.

Beth so many people hinted that they thought our son was just spoiled. He wasn't. he was struggling and looking back my heart breaks to think of how hard his adolescent years were for him. I remember when we first started working with our psychiatrist, who diagnosed our son. I asked him if our son was spoiled and suggested that this was part of the problem. He said to me, "Spoiling does not produce behavior that looks like this." After that I started to pay attention to other kids, especially kids whose parents seemed to "spoil" them. What I saw were not kids like my son but rather kids who were "entitled and obnoxious and pushy" , but NOT irritable and on edge.

[beth]

jisp I think you are right about getting a consult. Now I just have to find someone competent----easier said than done.

It is so hard to know about what is catering and spoiling and what is dealing with the reality of what a child is like. I remember when our ds was in 8th grade. He was playing lacrosse and then there was an end of season barbeque. He was hot and sweaty and wanted to go home and change. We said we would. While he was getting his stuff, we overheard one of his team mates (and a good friend of his) asked his dad to go home and change. His dad said no--you'll dry off in the heat. And that was the end of it. Our son would have had a fit. My husband and I looked at each other and thought that we are reinforcing our son's demanding tendencies. The other family lived the same distance (10 minutes) from the park as we did so it wasn't like it was easier or harder for them than us.

And healthy--I agree our sons sound alike--especially the part about not liking to be interrupted. I think that is the over focusing part of ADHD. And we tried counseling for about a year. It helped my husband and I to be on the same page with him but I honestly don't think it did our son much good.

And so bros, I am reluctant to insist upon counseling. Perhaps when he is 19 like you were he will get it.

[michellea]

Beth - I have a ninth grade client that seemed to have many of the same issues as your son. The parents are divorced and not at all on the same page - so this did not help. But, finally the father agreed to seek medical counsel. The boy is now receiving medication under supervision and is seeing a "life coach" on a weekly basis. Things are not perfect, but he is doing better in school and taking more responsibility. The life coach is slowly helping him to understand his own behavior, triggers, strategies and helping him with positive self advocacy (vs lashing out). The family went through a few therapists until they found this coach - but the boy is clicking with him and it has taken some of the stress off the mom (my client). The coach also helps the mom realize when to step in, when to back off, and how to deal with tough situations. For instance, we have an IEP coming up and the coach will work with the boy to help him prepare.

I would not dismiss out of hand finding someone to work with your son. Maybe you need to "label" the person something other than therapist. But I do think it could help.

[kewpie]

Beth,
Since you mentioned your brother-in-law. I was wondering if your son had an opinion of him and if it was similar to yours. Maybe an "offhand" comparison of his behaviors in a half joking way to Uncle so and so may make him take a more objective look at his behaviors.

[beth]

michellea--I don't doubt he could benefit but I don't think he would fall for someone being called a life coach. Perhaps if he had not already spent a year in counseling, it would be easier to facilitate.

kewpie--I don't know if my son has noticed his uncles behaviors but I do not want to call attention to them. It seems disrespectful to my brother-in-law.