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Post by healthy11 on Oct 2, 2013 12:47:27 GMT -5
This discussion of a "life coach" or ADHD Coach reminded me of a CHADD meeting that I attended a couple of years ago on that topic. There were a couple of Coaches who spoke at that event, and every one of them said if the adolescent being "coached" isn't the one who recognized they needed help and wanted the assistance themselves, it's apt to be a waste of time and money. All too often, parents seek out someone so they don't have to keep nagging/reminding their teen about things, but if the student is in any way hesitant or resistant, the coaching is seldom effective. The one coach said he generally didn't think coaching was very useful until kids were college-aged (not necessarily that they were attending college) because by then they start to realize mom & dad WON'T always be around to help them with everything, and if they want to become independent, they need to figure out how to handle things better themselves.
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Post by jisp on Oct 2, 2013 15:51:02 GMT -5
It is so hard to know about what is catering and spoiling and what is dealing with the reality of what a child is like. I remember when our ds was in 8th grade. He was playing lacrosse and then there was an end of season barbeque. He was hot and sweaty and wanted to go home and change. We said we would. While he was getting his stuff, we overheard one of his team mates (and a good friend of his) asked his dad to go home and change. His dad said no--you'll dry off in the heat. And that was the end of it. Our son would have had a fit. My husband and I looked at each other and thought that we are reinforcing our son's demanding tendencies. The other family lived the same distance (10 minutes) from the park as we did so it wasn't like it was easier or harder for them than us. Beth, I can speak to this both as an ex-sensory sensitive kid and as a parent. I was (and still am) very sensitive to sensory input. I believe some of that is related to my slow processing, which fits since my son who is also a slow processor struggles with sensory overload as well. As a kid I hated being uncomfortable in clothes that were too itchy, too wet, too tight, too baggy, etc.... I would need to get out of my wet sweaty clothes in order to be able to process and enjoy an event like a barbecue. Wet bathing suits drove me crazy. Tights drove me crazy. I remember having a hissy fit about a pair of much wanted Levi Jeans that I had begged my parents to buy for me because they did not fit just right. At times my parents accused me of being spoiled and it hurt. I wasn't spoiled I just had trouble tolerating certain types of discomfort. To this day I marvel at women who can wear nylons and work all day in them. If I wore nylons I would have a horrible time concentrating or being able to work. I can only tolerate cotton or wool tights. My middle son is the same way. He was overly sensitive to discomfort. Some of that was due to his mood issues, but not all of it because my other two have mood issues and are not that way. I think it has a lot to do with his processing struggles. So yes the other boy could handle being wet and sweaty. But your son could not and that is just the way he is. You knew that your son could not handle being wet and sweaty. The other boy probably could. I can ask my youngest to stay at a party after he has gotten wet. But for his older brother that would be very hard. I didn't spoil one and not the other. They just have different tolerances for discomfort.
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Post by vp4 on Oct 2, 2013 23:22:36 GMT -5
I empathize with you. If my son talks like that to me (not far from it right now), I would slap him silly. We take enough crap from these ingrates. When I was in my teens, I never uttered a single word back to my parents, because I used to get the crap beaten out of me if I did the slightest thing wrong. My son never had to endure a single instance of that and I believe it kind of emboldens him to be disrespectful. Ugh...
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Post by beth on Oct 3, 2013 7:25:11 GMT -5
vp4 I personally think it is a change in the culture rather than the threat of beating that has been most influential. I was never hit by my parents and never thought I would be. Yet, I never spoke to them the way my son has spoke to me. Disrespect is now big business (think Comedy Central) and u-tube and the like capture kid's attention. But generally we live in a less respectful society and that is not restricted to kids.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 3, 2013 8:39:08 GMT -5
Beth, I concur with you 100%. I was never hit by my parents, yet I didn't "back talk" or display "an attitude" of arrogance to them or anyone else. Even today, I rarely swear and I try to exhibit politeness and patience to everyone, therefore I know my son has picked up his rudeness from other people and outside influences.
In my son's case, I think it is partially a result of his ADHD, because he's less apt to "pick up" on subtle social cues, but instead he notices louder, more obvious (and obnoxious) behaviors, and then rationalizes "everyone else is doing it." My son doesn't seem to have much ability to empathize with others or see things from their perspectives, either, so he doesn't "get" that what might be acceptable, "casual" language around other kids isn't necessarily appropriate when around parents. The pervasive, vulgar tone that's heard on TV, in videos, in music, etc. has contributed greatly to the disrespect that people exhibit nowadays.
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Post by vp4 on Oct 3, 2013 13:36:28 GMT -5
In this culture corporal punishment is rare of course. I am not a native and grew up in another country and corporal punishment was used by nearly 100% of parents. It was kind of the thing parents did to keep kids in check. In my case, it was more of my dad taking out his frustrations from outside home on me. I had learned a painful lesson from that experience which prevented me from using that same tactic with my son. Sometimes I wished I used it, sparingly.
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Post by michellea on Oct 3, 2013 15:24:11 GMT -5
"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers". This is attributed to none other than Socrates in the fifth century, B.C. (taken from "Why do they act that way?") Here are a couple of books that helped me - "Why Do They Act That Way?" (great insight into brain development) www.amazon.com/WHY-They-Act-That-Way/dp/0743260775/ref=pd_sim_b_7And: " Get Out of My Life, But Could you Drive Me and Cheryl To the Mall?" (great humor and practical suggestions) www.amazon.com/Life-First-Could-Drive-Cheryl/dp/0374528535/ref=pd_sim_b_5
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Post by jisp on Oct 3, 2013 15:38:43 GMT -5
Most of you I have not met so please take what I say with that in mind. I believe that children learn by what they see, unless they are terrorized into acting a certain way out of fear. Many parents whose own parents were quite strict complain that their more liberal parenting has resulted in kids who are rude and disrespectful. But the thing about parenting is that your kids are watching you. If you boss your child around in order to get them to do chores then they will mimic your tone when they want you to do something for them. If you nag, they will nag. If you give your kids the freedom to behave as themselves they will act as they see the adults in their lives act. How do the adults who surround your children act? Do they act entitled? How do you talk to your parents, your spouse, your own kids for that matter? Do you take time to listen? How do you deal with those you employ? Staff at restaurants, housecleaners, repairmen, teachers etc.....
Nice kids often have nice parents....EXCEPT when there is something else going on in the kid's life. The anger and disrespect is often a sign that something is bothering your child and they are not comfortable with themselves.
My kids were not perfect. NO KIDS ARE. Kids will, like us, have days when they are crabby and irritable and when they find us annoying and they will not be nice. But if you model for them how you want them to act and show them how you handle those moments, they will pick up on it and as they go from adolescent into being young adults they will indeed turn around.
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Post by beth on Oct 3, 2013 20:11:05 GMT -5
I don't know if it is quite this simple. My daughter was a mostly respectful teenager who has grown into a lovely young woman. We could pat ourselves on the head and say good job but the two boys have humbled us.
I also think difficult children often bring out the worst in parents. I know my sons have.
I agree that nice kids often have nice parents. But nice parents don't always have nice kids.
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Post by dwolen on Oct 3, 2013 21:03:22 GMT -5
As I have said about a million times, I did not know my dd has ADHD until she was 21, LD's at 18. But, as I educated myself about ADHD, one thing I learned from the books of Russel Barkley is that kids with ADHD are about 1/3 behind in emotional maturity compared with kids with no ADHD. Around 30 years old, the maturity gap evens out. This made so much sense to me. So, my 21 yo was not acting like me at 21 (definitely NOT a paragon of maturity at 21, but not like dd), she was acting like a 14 yo! That was about right. Yes, she often seemed like a terrible brat, but that is how a 14 yo would act.
If you can accept this fact, found in Barkley's extensive research, your 16 yo son's behavior at its worse is probably more in line with someone 1/3 his age, about 11. Except, its an 11 yo maturity level dealing with driving privileges, alcohol, and all the other challenges of mid adolescence. I don't envy you in having to deal with two boys who are difficult to raise. It is so much more stressful to raise a child with problems. My very close friend is suffering from prolonged PTSD like symptoms from her dd's adolescence (the dd is now 25, still blaming mom for everything, but demanding money.)
Another thing revealed in Barkley's research is that ADHD is highly associated with oppositional defiant disorder, which is, in turn, highly associated with conduct disorder. And conduct disorder can lead to escalation into criminal behavior. In fact, 11-49% of prison inmates have been found to have ADHD. Supportive parenting can alter the course of this, but the poor supportive parents are often exhausted wrecks! I think you mentioned that your dh has ADHD? It is also much harder for a parent with ADHD to parent a child with ADHD for many reasons. I did not realize how much more stressful raising my dd was compared to a child without ADHD/LD's. Of course, it would have been great to have her problems well defined early in childhood, first of all. And, I only had one child.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 3, 2013 21:11:16 GMT -5
Beth said, "I agree that nice kids often have nice parents. But nice parents don't always have nice kids."
So true! My sister and I are less than a year apart in age, but like "night and day" in terms of personalities; people who meet us both are often amazed we're from the same family. Some of it is nature, and some is nurture. We were obviously raised in a very similar manner, but we had different classmates and friends, and were influenced by more than just our parents.
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Post by vp4 on Oct 3, 2013 21:16:38 GMT -5
<<But, as I educated myself about ADHD, one thing I learned from the books of Russel Barkley is that kids with ADHD are about 1/3 behind in emotional maturity compared with kids with no ADHD.>>
My son was tested for ADHD and the diagnosis was that he did not have ADHD and there was nothing needed. I believe he is at least 2 years behind other kids his age in all aspects. The way he acts, talks, walks, everything. I even thought about gap year for him after he finishes High School before he is shipped off to college. Volunteer for a few months. Travel the world for a few. Just to see what is out there. Gain some maturity. He wants to become a physician but has no empathy for anyone at his age now. There is so much growing to do.
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Post by empeg1 on Oct 3, 2013 21:31:11 GMT -5
Jisp, I agree with you, to a point. Children do indeed learn from what is modeled for them. I am not a great believer in piling up discipline. if one needs to do the above, then something is not working. And, the relationship with teens can then be damaged. One need the relationship to have a teen buy into the wanting to be part of the family and wanting to cooperate. But, for some teens and young adults need more than modeling. I know my oldest does learn from what she sees and hears. And, the above is not enough. She needs therapeutic parenting. I have to look at what I see and then remind myself, "This is brain, not behavior". I must know when to step back and change what I do. yes, it helps to model, but she will not just learn from a model or remember from what she saw and heard. Oh how I wish it was as easy as that!
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Post by jisp on Oct 4, 2013 5:56:24 GMT -5
But guys that is my point: If a child or teen is not acting respectful or is not learning by your modeling then chances are there is SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON. And that something else needs to be addressed. But being better disciplinarian or being stricter or saying that you spoiled that child is NOT going to solve the problem. As one of the clinicians said to me when I told her that I thought our son was a brat due to my poor parenting, "If it were just a matter of poor parenting, I would be out of a job."
I wrote that comment because I think it is important for those with LD teens who think that more groundings, more consequences, more restrictions etc....is going to solve the problem. It will not. Being tougher parent is probably not what your kids need. If you want to look at your parenting, then it is far better to spend time looking at how your child processes information, what struggles they are dealing with and figure out how to best relate and communicate with your child.
One example that I like to give is that my middle child is a VERY slow processor. When you would ask him a question or tell him to do just about anything it looked as though he was purposely ignoring you. As a teen this became exaggerated and many adults thought he was just being cocky or aloof and avoiding. But the reality was he was struggling to process what was being said to him. I learned that if I asked him to take out the garbage I needed to count slooooowly with my fingers behind my back and not say anything until I got to 10. Often our son would respond between finger 9 and 10. Before I started doing that I would repeat at about finger 5, get mad at finger 6 for why he was ignoring me, and we would be engaged in a full blown teary angry conflict by finger 8. Special kids require special parenting. But none of you, I suspect have caused your child's brattiness by spoiling your child.
Also development is not linear. As VP4 points out you can have a teen who is not as mature as his/her peers and therefore appears to be spoiled or uncooperative when really the expectations being asked of them is beyond what they are capable of. Eventually most healthy brains mature and it never ceases to amaze me to see the transformation that goes on between ages 19 and 25.
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Post by michellea on Oct 4, 2013 7:09:54 GMT -5
It seems that the complexity of the situation points to getting more information (is there a mental health issue, is there a sensory issue, how might ADHD be manifesting itself) and help from a team of outside experts. My sense is that the solution might be a combination of medical, behavioral and environmental and a team of experts can help you to prioritize, implement and provide ongoing feedback and coaching. If your son does not want to participate, then you need to start shifting the situation on your end and hope that it will begin to shift and improve things. I expect that this will take a long time with two steps forward and one step back (and sometimes 3 steps back). But if things are as difficult as you describe, I know I would need outside help and support to do my part in dealing with the situation.
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Post by dwolen on Oct 4, 2013 7:13:52 GMT -5
I also suggest that more "cracking down" on a teen , showing who is boss, restrictions, can back fire, especially in a teen bent on winning the parent-teen power struggle. I did keep strict rules, but I also always tried to maintain the relationship. It was topmost in my mind at all times. Without an emotional bond with my dd, she would have NEVER followed my crazy suggestions, like learning meditation, going to the Landmark College open house, slogged through the difficult Cogmed program, and the difficult Posit science programs. It is only due to the emotional bond that we maintained with her that she took advantage of these things that helped her so much. And, I am pretty certain that my dd would have used drug abuse as a stress reliever if not for the emotional bond. I had to eat my nasty thoughts, squash my anger, take my frustrations out in my exercise and find satisfaction in my work (not in my parenting at the time, which felt like a failure in progress). Parenting a teen is the hardest thing, and being consistent...well, it is so hard. I was reading the book, Team of Rivals, one sentence a night as I fall asleep after one sentence; and was surprised to read that Abraham Lincoln and his wife, Mary Todd, said they used love as the bond to tie their children to them, to get them to comply with parental wishes. That was 1850, pretty progressive parenting. Abraham Lincoln was beaten quite regularly by his father. He did not like his father.
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Post by kewpie on Oct 7, 2013 13:31:25 GMT -5
>But nice parents don't always have nice kids. < So true. My grandmother used to try to encourage me to socialize with other girls on our block because their "parents were so nice". These girls were a bunch of Eddie Haskels in drag who smoked, chased boys, swore and drank. If I said that, then my grandmother would have thought I was lying. It wasn't until my Mom attended a field trip where these girls started acting like smart asses in public that she realized their true colors. It was finally a relief to have someone tell Granny what those girls from "nice parents" where really like.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 8, 2013 8:03:30 GMT -5
>> The anger and disrespect is often a sign that something is bothering your child and they are not comfortable with themselves.<<
I agree with jisp. Over the years, various threads on this board have touched on the difficulties some young people have with developing coping skills, developing "grit" and developing a healthy and productive sense of "self."
These difficulties are not limited to kids with ADHD/LDs. But for some reason, many kids with ADHD or LDs often have more difficulty with coping, persevering and developing a healthy concept of who they are. And while we have plenty of examples of girls who struggle to develop a healthy sense of self, my personal experience has been that more guys struggle with this than girls.
If our kids are not comfortable with themselves, they are often not comfortable with the people who know them best: their parents. They create fake personas to fit in with peers. But at home, they can't hide behind some temporary persona of being "cool" or "tough."
A few years ago, our son was making a mess of his life while at college on the other side of the state. He dropped out of school, had no place to live, kept telling us he was going to move home, but didn't. Trying to brace for him moving back home (with his out-of-control drinking and other unacceptable behaviors), my husband and I went to a counselor. We needed help to develop rules and consequences for our son if he moved back home but refused to follow our rules.
I remember saying to the counselor, "I don't know who my son is anymore. He's nothing like the kid who grew up in our family."
I'll never forget the counselor's response: "That's because your son doesn't know who he is anymore."
As jisp wisely said, our son was not comfortable with himself. He didn't want to be the little boy that grew up in our family. But he wasn't able to develop a new, stable, healthy sense of self (yet.) And rather than seek to develop a positive sense of self, he seemed bent on self-sabotage.
My best advice is outside counseling for your son...but also for you and your husband. If you have an Employee Assistance Plan at work, maybe that can help with the cost. I understand that your son may refuse to go. But you and your dh can still go.
My other advice, albeit painful, is time. Many of the issues with anger, drinking and lack of identity will resolve with time. There are parents on this board for whom time has NOT helped their kids. But if you look at the statistics, most young people who get caught up in these behaviors are just going through a phase that they eventually outgrow. Over time, our kids become more comfortable with themselves and how they fit into the world. They eventually realize that their parents are NOT the enemy. And they realize that impressing peers is really not as important as they once believed.
Hang in there, beth!
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Post by beth on Oct 9, 2013 9:42:34 GMT -5
Thanks Sharon.
My son has actually been better since we were very clear to him that he will not get his driver's license even when he is 17, if he doesn't change his ways. I think he thought he thought he'd get it regardless when he turned 17 and that excellent behavior might get it earlier which apparently he decided wasn't worth it.
jisp--I did call a psychiatrist but he didn't want to meet with my husband and I without our son. He said he is 16 and should be involved in decisions. I agree with that but really wanted to give him background and what we do know. I actually liked your suggestion of meeting with him ourselves and then separately him meeting with ds. He told me all psychiatrists would do it this way. Do you think that is true? I would like to have the time to give him ds' history without ds present.
Not sure what to think. I am considering emailing and explaining a bit more why I wanted to do it the way I suggested. He suggested talking to him without our son at appointment first if that is what we wanted.
Or should I look for someone else?
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Post by beth on Oct 9, 2013 10:25:43 GMT -5
OK. I did email psychiatrist and he called me back. He said he could meet with us for a separate appointment but could not bill insurance. So we would have to pay out of pocket ($160). He said we could just talk to him while our son waited in waiting room. He said if it is just ADHD that is usually very straight forward and so that is what he would do. I told him that is part of the issue--I don't know if it is.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 9, 2013 11:19:48 GMT -5
Beth, the way you're handling the situation with the psychiatrist is just what we would have done. We did a similar thing when we were looking to establish a relationship with the family therapist our son saw in H.S... With both our son's psychiatrist and the counselor, we got the Dr's. email addresses, and many times, before our son's appointments, I would send a "summary" of concerns we had, including examples of specific incidents that happened since his last visit. While the Dr's said Hippa restricted their ability to respond back to us, the information we gave allowed them to focus on particular topics and maximize the time they spent with our son if we weren't there. (During some of his visits, when he said it was okay, we did "sit in," but our son also had time to talk in private.)
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Post by jisp on Oct 9, 2013 19:50:01 GMT -5
Beth your doctor is WRONG about not being able to bill insurance. You need to contact your insurance company. If your son is under 18 and you are his primary caretaker than I believe the psychiatrist can code the parent visit under your son's diagnosis. And in fact new rules have been created around this topic with Obama Care being implemented so that this should be possible. I would definitely call your insurance regarding this.
Also it is not true that all psychiatrists would do it this way. In fact a warning sign for me would be a child-adolescent psychiatrist that DOES NOT WANT to include parents/caregivers in the treatment. A rejection of parental input can lead to potentially bad treatment decisions. At a minimum the psychiatrist needs to get a complete and thorough family history and a history of your son before he has memories of what he was like. It is also vital that a psychiatrist rule out how the parent dynamic is impacting your son and whether that is contributing or not to the situation.
BTW, my daughter went off to college and started working with a psychiatrist. She was 18+. The psychiatrist had ZERO interest in talking to my husband and I even though our family psychiatrist contacted her and told her that it would be important to keep us in the loop. My daughter was becoming increasingly unwell and she also thought this female psychologist was pretty cool. My daughter manipulated the psychologist into thinking all her problems were due to her mother and how I related to her. Meanwhile my daughter was becoming increasingly unstable (Carrie's character on Homeland is spot on). I knew it based on the phone calls we were getting home...especially when our daughter (who hates bugs and would hike in outfits more suited for 5th avenue then the trails in Maine) called and insisted she was going to go on a NOLS or Outward Bound course over winter break. I desperately tried to call the psychiatrist our daughter was working with but the woman ignored my calls. I called our psychiatrist who also tried to contact her. Meanwhile my daughter CRASHED...big time. It was not pretty. Fortunately at that point our daughter had the smarts to call our family psychiatrist, who eventually gave our daughter's psychiatrist (by then ex-psychiatrist) a piece of his mind.
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Post by beth on Oct 9, 2013 21:28:41 GMT -5
jisp--you raise some good points. And actually, I recall that when my son was getting counseling, my husband and I went in and talked to the psychologist and she coded the visit under him. Maybe I should look for someone else.
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Post by empeg1 on Oct 10, 2013 0:14:09 GMT -5
I am running into the same issues with my oldest dd. To top it off, she does not have insurance. And, the cost of an evaluation is, at a minimum, $450! Then it is $250 for each following appointment. When I called the county, the "therapist" on the line, for whom I waited 45 minutes on the phone, told me she could not talk to me, as my dd was over 18. @#@# I politely, at that point, told this person, there is a reason why I am calling and my dd is not and I know HIPPA, regulations, I can talk to you as much as is necessary. The process of my dd seeing a psychiatrist through the county? An intake has to occur on the phone and then dd has to go to an intake appointment with a therapist who then decides if a referral to a psychiatrist is warranted. The wait for the above is 4 months. The evaluation appointment with the psychiatrist is 30 minutes. @#@# again. I then told the county "therapist, my dd can't go through multiple appointments to see a psychiatrist. She will bolt. DD is afraid of therapists and for good reason as this is the profession that has blamed her the most for what is her brain disability. Can I send the neuropsych report and can you do the intake with me and just get her an appointment with a psychiatrist as I explain all that is happening. Nope! This "therapist' then tells me, "Your dd has to be willing to cooperate with us". Ugh, there is goes; the blame game starts where judgment is made and mental health professionals start seeing dd's limitations based on her brain injury as "a choice. The coup d'etat? The therapist then said, you will just have to take your dd to the ER. Oh gee, thanks, but no thanks. I am beginning to see that in this country you have to be rich or you simply don't matter.
So, here is stand. DD's stability is affected. Each day is bringing explosions. Two days ago, I told her that I would not argue with her (as she was yelling at me) and that needed a time out. I told her I was going out for 5 minutes. I walked out and....dd ran after me, yelling the whole time, non-stop. The only way I could stop the above was, I jumped in the car and took off. When I called 5 minutes later, dd was in hysterics. The above is not an isolated incident. But wait, she can't see a psychiatrist until she gets through the process of going through gatekeepers and then she won't see a doc until 4 months, at least, with an appointment for 30 minutes tops for a very complicated case with a patient who has suffered severe, atypical reactions to psychotropic medications before and more than once. @#@
The best I can do? I finally found a psychiatric nurse practioner who will evaluate my dd for $250 and $75 per session afterwards. Dear God, I hope this person will allow me to talk to her. After all, who am I? I am just the parent, who knows my dd and who is an expert in FASD, my dd's disability.
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Post by dwolen on Oct 10, 2013 7:06:58 GMT -5
Sorry to divert the thread, Beth. Well, empeg, in Chicago, there is no waiting time get an appt in a publically funded mental health center, you just cannot get an appointment. Since the 2008 recession and cut backs in funding, the city mental health clinics can only see new patients who have come out of the psychiatric hospital, ie, the public mental health hospitals. Will your dd qualify for expanded medicaid under the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare)? Income under $15,600 qualifies, it is a good deal, at least in Illinois it is easy to sign up. I read in the NYT that it is easier in California to sign up. No proof of disability needed, just under this income limit, citizenship or legal resident of the US, and age 19-65. I believe some access to MH care is built into the law. The states where it is the hardest to sign up for the Affordable Care Act are states with republican dominated governorship and congressional delegations. Either those states are not accepting the expanded medicaid to try to weaken the law or, according to the NYT, not facilitating poor folks in their state to sign up. An example cited by the NYT was Mississippi, where large numbers of very low income Black folk live, and they are having lots of trouble signing up for the Affordable Care Act. BTW, for income over $15,600-$44,000, you have to buy insurance on the health exchange websites, but the subsidies and tax breaks/tax deductions will result in a pretty big income tax refund for those who are in this income level buying health insurance, resulting in very little out of pocket expense at tax time.
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