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Post by 2remem on Oct 28, 2011 16:51:54 GMT -5
First, I would like to thank everyone in advance. I have been lurking for a couple days now and cannot say enough thank you for all the great advise I've seen so far.
My post will be long as I want to make sure I provide the info needed for someone to help me. I have 2 kids, DS 15yrs & DD 7yrs. Both have learning disabilities that in some ways are similar yet very different. DS on 504 and DD in SpEd pullout. My DS is drowning in his disability and I need help to figure this out. Lots of problems from preg through 5yrs with him. Only a couple problems that would have bearing on LD would probably be breathing stopped for 4mins during labor, preemie 32wks, ROP that miraculously went away & 3mo old hearing test failed and was not discovered until 18 mos. and yes, I kept questioning drs. about delayed everything(long story). Nonstop fluid in his ears(tubes x4 including T tubes) and 1 tube is still in and the other was pushed out by fluid leaving a huge hole in eardrum that cannot be fixed right now because of all the drainage. Needless to say, only 2 yrs ago did we find out through homeschooling that he might have APD. Last year, first time in traditional school setting and he started struggling. I request testing and it was done. DS over the last 3yrs scored advanced on state testing on all but math which is a HUGE problem for him.
He is disorganized, cannot focus nor hear in a noisy environment, chicken scratch, spells great but misspells everything when writing, misinterprets verbal dialogue including assignments or doesn't hear it all, cannot write from the board (will grab info off board from different places), cannot write and listen at the same time,seems to hurry through assignments especially written, no study skills, homework can take 4 times longer for him than other kids(he asked kids in his class how long it took them), nearly impossible for him to get what's in his head on paper without prompts and discussion, loses/misplaces everything, messy room, cannot draw a straight line, circle etc. These are just some of his issues. Now he is becoming depressed, having anxiety attacks, nightmares and my loving DS has developed an anger issue that includes screaming as his normal tone voice. Oh, until a year ago, he spoke much louder than the normal. Really loud. Lots of reminders and practicing inside voice may finally have his brain understanding he can hear after all these years. He is now asking for Adderall because kids are taking it at school who are nonADD and it is helping them so he thinks it will help him. He is tired of working harder and longer than others with poor to only good results though he knows the info inside and out.
Hope I didn't lose anyone. Now the test results done 11/10:
WISC-IV Verbal Comp: 128 Perceptual Reasoning: 79 Working Memory: 94 Processing Speed: 70 Full Scale: 92
Similarities: 13 Vocabulary: 14 Comprehension: 17 Block Design: 6 Picture Concepts: 5 Matrix Reasoning: 9 Digit Span: 9 Letter-Number Sequencing: 9 Coding: 4 Symbol Search: 5
VMI SS: 64 DTVP SS: 92
TVPS3 Overall: 90 Basic: 80 Sequencing: 105 Complex: 105 Visual Discrimination: 4 Visual Memory: 7 Spatial Relations: 8 Form Constancy: 5 Sequential Memory: 11 Figure Ground: 10 Visual Closure: 12
TAPS3 Phonological: 88 Memory: 86 Cohesion: 98 Overall: 90 Word Discrimination: 4 Segmentation: 14 Blending: 5 Number Forward: 11 Number Reversed: 6 Word Memory: 7 Sentence Memory: 5 Comprehension: 7 Reasoning: 12
CTOPP Phonological Awareness: 100 Phonological Memory: 94 Rapid Naming: 106 Elision: 10 Blending Words: 12 Memory for Digits: 8 Rapid Digit Naming: 10 Nonword Repetition: 12 Rapid Letter Naming: 12
Woodcock Johnson-III Broad Reading: 99 Letter Word Identification: 110 Reading Fluency: 96 Passage Comprehension: 96 Broad Math: 103 Calculations: 103 Math Fluency: 94 Applied Problems: 106 Spelling: 93 Writing Fluency: 98 Writing Samples: 110 WRAML2 Verbal Memory: 97 Visual Memory: 88 Attention/Concentration: 94 General Memory: 90 Story Memory: 11 Design Memory: 5 Verbal Learning: 8 Picture Memory: 11 Finger Windows: 5 Number Letter: 13
I read the report and looked at the scores. They all seem to conflict each other in one way or another. DS has learned to adapt and figure things out. Recently he told me he guesses what he misses in sentences and right now could not tell you what is going on in his English class at all. I know he has adapted or trained himself for certain things because I see some good changes though it could also be that he is maturing. I am also including other test results that I was given as I think they are significant to the whole picture.
Tests done at 14.4 yrs old Comprehensive Assessment of Spoken Language (CASL) Synonyms: 122 Percentile: 93 Age equivalent: 19 Nonliteral Speech: 121 Percentile: 92 Age Equivalent: 20.9 Inference: 107 Percentile: 68 Age Equivalent: 15.9 Meaning From Context: 118 Percentile: 88 Age Equivalent: 19.9 Grammatically Judgment: 103 Percentile: 58 Age Equivalent: 15.3
Expressive One Word Picture Vocabulary Test: 116 Percentile: 86
Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test 4: 120 Percentile: 91
Standardized tests are all high average to advanced for everything with math being the lowest at average.
I have the annual 504 meeting on Monday like I said. What little accommodations he has been given have been nearly useless for him and not followed completely. DS is motivated not like other kids and does not do any extracurricular activities anymore because he could not balance nor did he enough time for all his homework though he wants to. He feels out of place in HS. Thinks kids are immature, feels like he doesn’t fit either socially or academically, and cannot understand how everyone does their homework, play sports and are in clubs and why he cannot do it too.
DS is fluent in Hebrew meaning he can be immersed with no problem and has taken college 1st year course of the language this summer. He will be taking the 1st semester of Latin over winter break, take College Hebrew 2nd year concurrently this spring if we can keep his GPA at a C or better and has already said he wants to take Advanced English Literature Comprehension, Latin 2nd Semester, 1st semester Arabic, U.S. History 1st & 2nd semesters and possibly a college class. He wants to learn. Next year that would leave only 1 mandatory class he would need to take and 2 his senior year though History could be done over the summer leaving English for both years. He grades are up and down, but he has a tutor 3 days a week, I work with him nonstop, make notes for what he needs to do the next day, label all his homework in Red ink to remember to hand in, work with him in English writing with prompts and being his scribe etc. I refuse to just do nothing.
Everyone says “let the kid fail then the school with take notice”, well….look at it this way. Your husband buys something from Home Depot that needs assembling. After struggling for an hour, he’s frustrated and asks for your help. You see the directions lying next to him still folded. You pick them up, check them out and it all made sense to you. You tell DH, do it yourself. You have the directions. Use them. Now, your DH went to IKEA & purchased a wall unit. He lays everything out, grabs the directions and a page is missing or they are missing all together. He calls for you, you understand his dilemma and together you finally figure it out through trial and error and the picture on the box. LD children are the latter in this story. They cannot do it alone. They do not have the tools. Who lets someone struggle when you know they cannot do something without the tools needed to succeed? No one, so why would I let my child? We all know serious issues could arise if you do and the parent or mother in you just can’t let it happen. Hence….I need your help.
BTW- I spoke to the Director of SpecEd for our district this week and told her what I felt was going on. She was surprised and concerned and is supposed to call me back. Yeah…ok…we’ll see. My DS is in English Honors. His grade was a D. Something is wrong with this picture, but adding to it’s a grade from the second week of school & it magically changed since speaking with the SpecEd director and brings his grade to a C now. Coincidence? Doubt it. What do you think?
I plan to go into the meeting with Letter of Request for IEE, Request for Mental Health Evaluation and tell them straight out that we are not happy. Please take a look at the scores and info provided. There is more to the story, but think there is adequate info to form some kind of idea of where to go next or do next.
I am prepared to fight and would appreciate any guidance and/or knowledge please.
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Post by bros on Oct 28, 2011 17:47:25 GMT -5
Sounds like DS might have CAPD?
Also send them a letter before the meeting.
Also, has DS had a MRI? Possibility of him having PVL (Periventricular leukomalacia), which is caused when an infant has trouble breathing, which causes the death of brain matter.
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Post by 2remem on Oct 28, 2011 20:01:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply- I think it could be CAPD because there is a lot that would indicate it along with medical history. I also know that it manifests differently depending on where in the brain the info is not processing.
No MRI was done as far as I know and gosh knows I did everything to try to get some answers the first few years, but then I was much more naive. Boy has that changed. Only in the last day or two did it even enter my mind that there could be damage in the brain. I guess I saw it as a horror story(not breathing) that ended happy because the doctors never said a word to me after birth about things to worry about or later on. He also had several apnea events after birth. I cannot remember his Apgar numbers, but they were pretty good because he didn't go into NICU until many hours later.
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Post by bros on Oct 28, 2011 20:46:44 GMT -5
Not to worry you, but I had an unusually high apgar score despite being born at 25 1/2 weeks and having mild periventricular leukomalacia.
So having a high apgar score does not mean one did not suffer brain damage (even if very slight)
Being him to a neurologist. Or see if his pediatrician can get him a MRI. Just to be sure.
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Post by 2remem on Oct 29, 2011 0:23:15 GMT -5
Ok, so I read a bit on Periventricular leukomalacia. Cannot rule it out until I see if they tested him after birth and even then it still good to have MRI done I think.
Never heard about it until today and thank you as I have another avenue to check out. Who would have thought that only the last few days did I consider that our preg/labor and delivery problems could play a role in what's going on with him.
I wonder if that could be part of the reason his test scores are not consistent in one area (SLP) and show a few areas of disabilities.
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Post by bros on Oct 29, 2011 0:31:20 GMT -5
The only way to test for it after birth is through an MRI, I believe.
My PVL wasn't detected until 2007. I had had multiple MRIs by that point (at least 5)
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 29, 2011 10:52:29 GMT -5
2remem, I know you've said that your son has had tubes in his ears a number of times...in conjunction with that, has he been seeing an audiologist? I can't help but wonder if you need to see a different doctor, since it would seem like they should have suspected/evaluated for CAPD a long time ago. By the same token, I'm wondering what kinds of LDs your daughter has? Unfortunately, there are familial tendencies for certain kinds of issues, and that may have an impact regardless difficulty during the birthing process. If you don't mind our asking, what state do you live in? Again, welcome!
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Post by 2remem on Oct 29, 2011 16:32:02 GMT -5
Thank you for the welcome. So glad I found you guys.
We are in LA area and DS for pretty much first 10 years went through the county system with one of the main teaching hospitals here. DS actually was born there, had all his ear surgeries through them, GI tests & drs there too. ENT was there also along with every other emergency room trip. Only his sinus surgery at 4 1/2yrs old was done at Children's Hospital in LA.
DD seems to be different in that her Perceptual Reasoning is higher than Verbal Comprehension. Coding is at 16 and she is much high with math testing especially math calculations. She has same issues with handwriting(chicken scratch), but she reverses letters, writes wrong letters though she knows the right ones. Her Rapid Naming is very low. She has a Short Term memory issue and I know there is something else going on that hasn't been pinpointed yet. I taught her to read by using flash cards on my phone, but she did not start learning until we were wrestling for the phone and she saw the words upside down and at many different angles. This began a journey for us that we are currently on. Everything is given verbal to DD to learn before she sees it on paper. DD has a huge problem still with understanding that "capital letters" are the same as "uppercase letters" and things like that. DD is incredible with remembering what she sees, where we've been and directions. DS couldn't find his way out of a paper bag. The yare the same that they do not hear what is said to them may times and she says "What?" a lot. They both are disorganized, leave things everywhere and seem to rush through/assume they understand school work in class. DD loves to draw and though she leaves things everywhere, she knows where she last saw them. This is something I have been trying to teach DS. How to visualize.
In terms of CAPD and diagnosing or something sooner, yeah I look back at all the things I said to doctors and all that went on from labor through the first 5 years and realize how DS was just overlooked.
I talked to 2 audiologists specializing in CAPD/APD and both felt that accurate results may be a problem with a big hole in his eardrum. Problem is that after years of allergy meds and sinus surgery, the kid is still draining pretty bad that he must carry q-tips in school to clean out the goop. No one seems to know how to get rid of it and surgery to repair the eardrum must be done, but cannot as the goop will have nowhere to drain causing a hearing issue and possible damage to ear bones and will cause problems with the fusion/healing of new eardrum.
Of interest, my youngest sister is autistic with mild retardation and seizures and my other sister's son is autistic also. Both had prolonged labor with sister having dry birth so there might not be a correlation to my kids.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 29, 2011 16:39:42 GMT -5
To clarify, are you in Louisiana, or Los Angeles? There are many Millermoms from California, who may be able to give you more resources/info; unfortunately, I only know of one other person who actively participates here and is from Louisiana....
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Post by 2remem on Oct 29, 2011 16:52:05 GMT -5
Sorry Los Angeles, Culver City to be exact.
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Post by bros on Oct 29, 2011 17:06:11 GMT -5
Possible dysgraphia in your DD?
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Post by 2remem on Oct 29, 2011 17:18:41 GMT -5
Yeah definitely dysgraphia for both DD & DS as far as I'm concerned. DD even holds a pencil different as she says it's the only was to keep control over her pencil otherwise "my pencil becomes squiggly and won't write what I want" DS has fine motor skills problems without a doubt
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Post by bros on Oct 29, 2011 18:08:05 GMT -5
What kind of grip do they use? I use the most unusual grip the two OTs I have seen, my neurologists, and my neuropsychologist have ever seen.
I hold it in between the ring and pinky fingers with the middle and index off to the side
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Post by jw on Oct 29, 2011 19:26:06 GMT -5
Hi,
I love in South Orange County, not too far away from you. For ear issues, I have taken one of my sons to House Ear Clinic up in LA (they are located not too far from downtown) to Dr Derald Brackmann, who did surgery on his ear with great results. They also have good audiologists who can figure out hearing issues. I have not seen them for CAPD but would expect that they could handle it. For CAPD, we saw an audiologist in Mission Viejo named Carol Atkins. She was helpful because she recognized the CAPD even though ds also has ADHD-inattentive, and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is which. My guess is that you could find a CAPD audiologist closer to home....
ADHD might also be an issue - if a kid is gifted and innattentive rather than disruptive it isn't that unusual to be diagnosed in high school. Meds do help my son a huge amount with processing speed and recall, and somewhat with his handwriting, so it speeds homework along quite a bit. With meds my ds probably takes twice as long as everyone else, but without them it would probably take him much longer....
You have a really bright kid with some deficits, so that's why he is frustrated. It's like he can see in his head how to do things but can't execute....
I have to run pick ds up, but will try to post more later. Good luck, jw
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Post by 2remem on Oct 29, 2011 22:01:37 GMT -5
bros- It is hard to describe the grip DD uses. It's kinda like pointer and middle are wrapped around front of pencil, pencil is between middle & ring, rests on ring finger, ring & pinky grip tight to hand, & thumb wraps overtop fingers.
jw- I have already talked to House Institute several times. There is little they can do. Yes, can repair eardrum, but do not handle CAPD/APD. They are not set up for it nor do they have anyone that is involved/handles these kind of cases.
Carol Atkins! I talked to her this week. She can do the testing, but is concerned about the eardrum issue.She also wants to make sure there isn't ADD thrown in there before she tests him too.
That is one of the reasons why I want to get the Mental Health Evaluation. Only problem is look at his tests I posted, they do not seem to indicate ADD at least from what I can tell. Poor DS wants to try Adderall though. He is frustrated an thinks if it's helping others, maybe it would work for him. Hence, mental health evaluation may be a starting point?
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Post by jw on Oct 29, 2011 22:43:14 GMT -5
Hi,
I used to have an article from several years ago that talks about subtest scatter on the WISC and patterns they see with kids who have ADHD. If I can find it I will post the link. But otherwise the docs I have seen have relied on the Connors or SNAP surveys to diagnose ADHD. I would even go so far as to say that in a lot of cases the docs "know it when they see it" since our ADHDer kids do have a certain flavor when being examined (i.e fidgeting, etc.). It might be even easier to get that diagnosis when the kid is older and can articulate how he feels. But you also have to factor in with teens what is ADHD and what is normal hormonal spaciness!
Hoping that your ds gets extra time on tests and extra time to take notes in class, or access to a teacher's set of notes, etc. My ds used to also get the option of doing fewer problems on homework, which helped him a lot in math. As long as he could demonstrate mastery he didn't have to do all of the problems.
Good luck, jw
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 29, 2011 23:08:04 GMT -5
Digit span on the WISC is supposed to be most closely related to ADHD, but it is also an auditory task, where kids have to pay attention to a series of numbers that they hear, and repeat them. (If your son's actual hearing was impaired, I wouldn't expect him to have scored so well on the VCI portions of the WISC or have decent phonological processing, so based on that, I'm guessing his hearing is okay, and the digit span results can be considered representative of his abilities. They're in the average range, so ADHD isn't glaring, but rating scales filled out by parents and teachers can help to clarify whether it might be an issue for him.)
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Post by 2remem on Oct 30, 2011 2:15:57 GMT -5
jw-DS gets extra time on test, but must ask ahead of time and teacher can deny it. Well, for a child who is forgetful and one who knows he knows the work, he doesn't always ask. See, he is pretty bright and only now is beginning to understand what is going on with him. I think it happens with a lot of kids that are on the bright side but have a LD.
If DS's teachers just spoke with DS or let him discuss what he is learning, then they would see that something else is going on and though homework and tests may be an issue, he knows the work.
Sadly, no one is giving him notes though written in his 504. Chemistry makes him hand in notes for grading. I pay a tutor to go over the chapter and write the notes for him. Teacher is ok with it. I have mixed feelings. It's good because he has horrible study habits, though learns the work well, but still having a tutor go over it means if there is a weakness somewhere, he can stop and treach him. It's bad because more us teaching & helping than school. English is his strongest class, but this year he could not tell you what they have done nor what they are doing. Teacher is a jerk, gives nothing in writing, doesn't answer emails and definately no notes. Can't switch DS out of the class without either throw his whole schedule into disarray or he would have to take a 0 period and have and empty 3rd period because only allowed 6 pds. Also school will not do it anyway. We tried. DS is supposed to have extra time on assignments to, but once again subjective to teacher.
This is going to change. 504 meeting on Monday and I my claws are delicately exposed. Look at DS tests subsets. Please, there's isn't a real problem here??
DS does not get lowered homework though he should have it. The homework for math is killing him. What takes others 1 1/2hrs takes DS nearly 5 hrs. Math is a problem too as, if homework isn't done just right he's marked down. Homework makes up to 50% of a test grade. Test itself is just part of the eqaution. DS found out Friday that he has 15 homework points out of 50pts which means even if he get 100% on the test, the best grade he can get is a 70. He is so beyond caring this early in the year because of it.
Healthy11- Yeah, I knew digit span was an idicator too and figured that because it's within the norm then he isn't ADHD.
In terms of ADHD/ADD, 1st grade teacher claimed he had it and she & her kids are ADHD. DS dr. at the time said no way DS had it. DS was in very small religious school for 2-6 grade. 6th grade teacher told DH that DS needed to be medicated. Throughout the years DS gets distraced easily, in noisy even just a clock ticking room, he cannot focus.Once distracted, very hard to get back on track. He get burnout and then shuts down when overloaded. He has a good attention span otherwise. He plays xbox with headphones only. Too distracted by other noises without them. Interestingly enough, certain kinds of music when listened through headphones helps him focus.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 30, 2011 8:43:53 GMT -5
2remem, your son's digit span score range is the same as mine's, but anyone who looks at my son or his rating scales can tell there is more going on...my son is highly gifted, but has ADHD, as well as SLDs in reading and writing (aka, dyslexia and dysgraphia) He's been tested for CAPD and does not have that issue, but he also likes to listen to music when studying; a recent Chadd seminar I attended mentioned that many ADHD kids prefer that to a quiet environment. I would like to see your son have a formal CAPD eval, and have rating scales completed, before concluding anything. There is also a computerized evaluation called the QUOTIENT test for assessing ADHD, that is supposed to be very reliable in diagnosis. www.fletcherphd.com/literature/BROCHURE_Quotient_ADHD_System.pdfIn addition, I would request that your son have the TOWL (Test of Written Language) because from everything you describe, he probably does have an SLD in written expression, and that IS an IEP eligibility category. While good teachers don't need formal paperwork to accommodate students, IEPs offer more legal protection than 504 plans, and it sounds like your son could use it. By the way, is your son right or left-handed? Is he allowed to keyboard instead of write by hand in school?
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Post by hsmom on Oct 30, 2011 11:07:43 GMT -5
Although my son's neuropsychologist also said that Working Memory tests on WISC are "highly susceptible to attention deficits," my son on his second WISC (which he took while on ADHD medication) did very well on Digit Span. He definitely has ADHD, but she explained that he has good auditory short-term memory and good auditory working memory. Long term memory is another story.
She also tested his attention on ADHD medication using the Test of Everyday Attention and found that on the auditory attention tests, he did much better on a divided attention test (two pieces of simultaneous auditory information) than a simple attention test (single piece of auditory information). And, on the visual attention tests, he worked faster when he had to multitask (visual and auditory information simultaneously). She explained that he needs more stimulation to maximize his attention (studying with soft radio on in the background and doodling while listening). He plays with Legos when I am reading to him and will play computer games (with the sound turned down) while listening to audio books!
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Post by 2remem on Oct 30, 2011 14:32:40 GMT -5
Hi everyone- has a busy day today and cannot comment as I want to. I will try between parties or while at them(not that I want to go). Need to take care of this which is more important for me, but....
For now, yes want DS tested for CAPD. Question is if requesting IEE or should I request something else to get him tested for CAPD, ADD and make sure tests that the school did not perform will be done. Does the school district pay for CAPD testing or just the standard tests?
Also, son cannot multitask. Just the music works for him, but he says trance music is the only one for him.
DD driving me crazy as we are late for the first party & pies are still baking in the oven. Thanks for the info and will be back later this evening to elaborate and respond. Have a great day!
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 30, 2011 14:56:10 GMT -5
I know a few people have gotten schools to pay for CAPD assessments, but I'm going to be blunt: CAPD and ADHD are really medical diagnoses, and few schools have qualified medical personnel on staff to determine that. They may do "screenings," but if you want comprehensive, thorough evaluations, which your son needs (especially since he's older, and his situation is more complex) then get those assessments done on your own...your health insurance should cover both of them, again, because they are medical determinations. (If you think of a situation where Johnny isn't reading well, and the school screening says he's got a vision problem, you still have to take him for further evaluation to find out the details...does he need glasses, or would glasses even help...ie, he's blind in one eye, or he has a tumor?) I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just don't think the school is the best source of information in your son's situation when it comes to CAPD and/or ADHD. Having said that, however, the school or someone via and IEE should be able to administer the TOWL, and better assess whether or not he has an SLD in written expression. The writing requirements in the WJ are not deemed to be very good when it comes to looking at that problem. www.concordspedpac.org/TypesTests.html
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Post by hsmom on Oct 30, 2011 16:36:02 GMT -5
I hope I am helping and not overloading. In rereading my son's neuropsych evaluation, I found a sentence that I have skipped over until now. His Processing Speed was the lowest index on the WISC and his neuropsychologist wrote "Additionally, research indicates that children with the inattentive features of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) experience signigicant difficulties with processing speed." I wonder whether your son's low processing speed may be an indication of ADHD-Inattentive which I understand can be masked and difficult to diagnose, especially in intelligent students. I just did a quick reseearch on this and found the following: Processing Speed involves how quickly the brain is able to act or react in various situations. Problems can arise when information is either processed too slowly (i.e. the subject can't keep up) or too quickly (i.e. the subject responds impulsively or carelessly).
All LD students experience some processing speed difficulty when required to process information through their weakest processing “channel” or “modality”. But for other LD students, a general weakness in processing speed causes difficulty in all areas.
It is like having the brain work at 40 miles per hour when the rest of the world (and all the information) is going 55 miles per hour. Such students just can’t keep up.
Relatively low Processing Speed is sometimes associated with ADHD - Inattentive type while relatively high Processing Speed is sometimes associated with impulsivity which can be a characteristic of ADHD – Hyperactive type.
Processing Speed involves:
short-term memory (with time pressure)
long-term retrieval (with time pressure)
talking speed, word-finding
writing speed
reading speed
attention
reasoning (with time pressure)
general response speed
Students experiencing a general Processing Speed disability often have learning difficulties in all academic areas due to their inability to process all types of information quickly. Specific difficulties may include:
- reading
reading speed
ability to stay focused while reading
- math
completing a series of problems
- written language
writing speed
mechanics
clarity (with time pressure)
- communication
delays in responding
slow, deliberate speech
word-finding difficulties
- general
coping with implied or expressed time pressures
always "a step behind"
difficulty maintaining attention to tasks
exceeding time limits during tests
trouble with social pressures to perform "faster"
The above comes from: The Cognitive Processing Inventory (CPI) Designed for assessment of information processing skills, evaluation of learning styles, differential diagnosis of specific learning disabilities developed by Scott L. Crouse, Ph.D. www.ldinfo.com/CPI_Manual.htm
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 30, 2011 16:52:48 GMT -5
hsmom, it's always good to remember that other people (many who "lurk" but don't post) are also reading these discussion threads, and so even if what you say to one person may not be useful at the time, it may still be very helpful to someone else. I appreciate your mentioning the above, along with the reference to where it comes from. My son (ADHD-combined type) is one of those kids who has fast processing speed, but the evaluator did mention how it leads him to skip important information and details, make careless errors, etc. It may seem odd, but he still benefits from accommodations like extra time, because he has to re-read passages for better understanding, where a student with slower processing speed needs the extra time to comprehend materials, too.
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Post by michellea on Oct 30, 2011 20:16:44 GMT -5
hsmom - This is very helpful. As you know, my son and yours seem to be similar in many ways - especially low processing speed. The last "list" within your post describes him perfectly - especially with "time pressure".
And Healthy - I have seen the issue your son has. "normal" processors with other glitches such as attention or working memory, often need extra time to utilize strategies to attend to details (underlying, re-reading, taking notes) and for checking work to be sure that they did a quality job.
My daughter has both processing speed and working memory difficulties. Although she has no "ld's" per se, she benefits greatly from extra time for all the reasons listed above.
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Post by 2remem on Oct 30, 2011 23:53:03 GMT -5
Darn...just lost the whole post I finished typing. I'll try again. Thank you to all that have posted. I do not get overloaded easily and would rather hear from those that will share than not. All info can be helpful and if not posted, if it doesn't help me then it may help someone else. I am so new at this and feel like I've pulled every direction with no clear path. The info that you have shared truly has cleared my head a bit to be able to see which direction to head and what's the next step. It is through lurking here and greatschools that has helped me so much and made me post. If all these wonderful people had not shared on other posts and this one, I would probably be in tears right now. You have given me strength(I know corny, but true) to go into our 504 meeting Monday knowing what I need to address. I will let them speak first, then nail them! Ha. I have no problem with doing CAPD testing on my own dime and have just the person now. Carol Atkins in Orange County as I spoke to her and like what I heard. I just wanted to know what most school districts offer first so that I am not in the dark or angry because they say no to it. Yes, TOWL I will make sure gets done. Cannot believe they didn't do it in the first place, but then they gave him a full scale IQ too.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 31, 2011 7:09:16 GMT -5
Hi 2remem--
I think getting an indepth CAPD eval makes a lot of sense. But my gut (and the scores) tell me there's something else going on. I also see significant problems with nonverbal learning and nonverbal reasoning.
Problems with his ear drum and the way his brain processes auditory information are probably one big piece of the puzzle. But those factors do not explain his WISC Perceptual Reasoning of 79.
I would like to see more testing on his processing speed and executive function..especially testing that does NOT involve anything paper/pencil. The WISC Processing Speed subtests such as Coding and Symbol Search can be pulled down by poor handwriting/fine motor ability or poor visual processing ability. So his PSI score may not accurately measure how quickly your son's brain processes information.
I would like to see more visual-motor integration testing such as the Beery or Bender Gestalt. There is a definite pattern of difficulty with processing certain types of visual information, from his WISC PRI to his Visual Discrimination, Form Constancy, Design Memory and Visual Memory.
His ability to learn foreign languages matches well with his WISC Verbal Comprehension index. Curious--you mentioned immersion for Hebrew. Does he seem to learn foreign languages better through auditory channels? Or does he learn the language better by reading in the foreign language? Or a combination? Does he learn better by learning a few vocab words a week? Or by true immersion?
It's clear your son has obvious strengths in certain types of learning. But his weaknesses are sabotaging him. Judging by his score patterns and your description of his struggles, his weaknesses are not solely auditory. Or only linguistic. Or only visual. Or only fine motor.
Instead, he has a hodge-podge of learning strengths and weaknesses that make it hard to figure out what works for him...and what doesn't. He's fried and frustrated trying to keep up with the class. The 504 isn't much help because it doesn't really identify or address his learning needs.
Many LDers are multi-sensory learners who need to see, touch and do in order to learn. They struggle to learn when the information is in words only...textbook or lecture.
Your son is not as easily defined. He has verbal strengths but also has significant difficulties with aspects of verbal learning and using words to express what he knows. He has some nonverbal strengths, but not enough to counteract his verbal weaknesses.
I think you're peeling back layers of the onion but not finding clear answers. Only more layers. And more confusion. I've been there.
I think you need to zero in on the low subtest scores from his most recent eval, and do some more testing to better understand WHY some things are harder for him. For example, is his low PRI and similar tests purely a visual problem? Or is it also fine motor?
What aspects of auditory processing are not working for him? Obviously Word Discrimination and Blending cause problems...but why are they so low when his CTOPP Phonological Awareness is 100/average? If he knows phonemes in isolation, why is he having such difficulty blending them or "hearing" them?
The school may not really want to delve that deeply. They may just want to place him in an existing service or set of services, add a few accommodations and move on. But you seem like the type of parent that wants more than that. I agree!
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 31, 2011 7:18:58 GMT -5
2remem, is your son a freshman or sophomore? My fear is that there isn't a lot more time to wait for the school to delve into every weakness, set up an IEP, and get "formal remediation" from them, but I hope I'm wrong...
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Post by 2remem on Oct 31, 2011 12:32:48 GMT -5
Testing was done a year ago. Son is sophomore.
I agree much of testing may be what I need to do vs. School. I do want an IEE as so far how they have handled him and seeing that they gave him a full scale IQ with such a huge spread, I want him tested by someone else.
I know there's a few things going on with him and gut feeling says CAPD, dysgraphia and something else that I just don't know.
With language, immersion works best though the couple lessons of French with audio & visual stuck with him.
He did fantastic with online schooling that is visual based. He does learn better with multi sensory I think and though VCI is high, he is missing some parts as you say it makes it definately more confusing.
I have to tell you that until some time last fall/winter DS was super clumsy, had several crashes on bike including being hit by a car. Then he grew several inches, slimmed down and can do things he couldn't do before. He doesn't stumble over everything and has actually developed rhythym.
Worth noting. He listens to music ALOT ans know the words to every song he hears after then first time. Wonder if it is has to do with the music?
Today is the meeting and I've written the request letter to be mailed off & one for the meeting. I am going to record the meeting also. Any advise? Thank you so much for being here. I know I planned to for a long time.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 31, 2011 12:51:11 GMT -5
There have been a number of studies and articles that point to music being helpful to learning. I remember one ADHD seminar I attended said familiar music playing in the background can act as "white noise" to kids who might otherwise have difficulty sitting in a quiet environment...however, it the music were new and unfamiliar, then it could actually be more of a distraction, if kids paid more attention to it than, let's say, their "routine, boring homework." Here's an article that also talks about music and how it can help language learning (Just think of the ABC song): scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2008/06/does_music_help_us_learn_langu.php
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