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Post by temomma on Mar 28, 2011 9:54:36 GMT -5
Hi, I need some help with deciphering my 7 year old's WISC-IV & WIAT-III results. This test was administered because of difficulties he is having with Speech, Spelling, Reading and to rule out Specific Learning Disability. He had language delay-phonological disorder. Any direction/insight on the scatter would be appreciated. Here's his scores: I would like to point, that if your son has language based disorder, using WISC FSIQ to evaluate his ability is discriminatory. Have you had speech evaluation? It is better to conduct nonverbal IQ test.
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Post by michellea on Mar 28, 2011 10:14:06 GMT -5
temomma, While the FSIQ should be interpreted with caution, it is not discriminatory to use the testing instrument as part of a full evaluation. In fact, it is precisely the scatter between and among subtests and indices that gives one insight into the student's profile, area of strength and difficulty.
There are in fact students with language disorders that score very high on both the verbal and non verbal sections of the WISC. Language disorders are very complex, and just because a student may have one, it does not mean that they would score better on a nonverbal test. My son, who is extremely dyslexic, posts his highest scores of the WISC on the VCI and WMI - both which rely heavily on language skills. In his case, a non-verbal test would not be appropriate.
I agree that relying solely on a discrepancy model and the FSIQ to determine special ed eligibility might be inappropriate. But the WISC, in and of itself, is not discriminatory, assuming it is used properly.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 28, 2011 10:14:49 GMT -5
I agree temomma, it does seem discriminatory though I don't know if it is intentional on their part. They say their results show he has an Expressive Language Disorder and I am trying to garner their support for further testing using a non verbal assessment. I think I will have a better case for this once the results come back for the CAPD and the Language Evaluation.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 28, 2011 10:40:52 GMT -5
Thank michellea, I also agree that language disorders and how they present in academic difficulties is very complex. My son shows symptoms of so many other disabilities(Dyslexia, CAPD, and now Dysgraphia) but it all could be stemming from Expressive Language Disorder and his language delay. Given my sons higher scores in PRI and the Cogat NV section it may be a better way to assess his ability though, but I am not sure. What do you think?
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Post by bros on Mar 28, 2011 10:55:05 GMT -5
They could use something like the UNIT (I believe that is a nonverbal IQ test) to test him
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Post by momfromma on Mar 28, 2011 11:11:49 GMT -5
I think that the WISC is not the issue. If anything, it shows your son's strengths and weaknesses in a way a non-verbal test would not show.
However, the problem seems to come from the fact the school insists using the FSIQ which, in a case like yours, has no real value. But dont disregard the information you got from the test itself.
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Post by michellea on Mar 28, 2011 11:30:59 GMT -5
I think it would be helpful to clarify what your goal is for the testing. If your goal is to get services, I do not see a need for additional cognitive testing. Quite frankly, the WISC would confirm what you know - he has very strong non-verbal reasoning skills and average verbal reasoning skills.
I think your concern is that the school has not found him to have a specific learning disability. Looking at the scores you posted, this is less about the discrepancy between IQ and achievement, and the fact that he has very consistent dead-average scores in the measures of reading that they used. His writing scores are somewhat lower, and suspect, but they are not alarming - even if his VCI were higher.
But, given your concerns about his daily functioning in school and the somewhat lower writing scores, I believe it makes sense to gather more objective data using tests such as the GORT, TOWRE, CTOPP and TOWL. It also makes sense to include any work samples, curriculum tests and observation. This will give you a more in-depth look at his achievement and skills in written language (reading and writing). Then you can determine if he does in fact have a LD, weaknesses or he is on track.
Without this data, you need to rely on the achievement testing that you already have. And, for the most part it is solidly average which would indicate that he is accessing the curriculum and making sufficient progress. Remember, the legal standard is not that the student reach potential - only that they make sufficient progress and this is typically defined as grade level work. The data you have so far supports grade level. (even if his WISC were 130 across the board).
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Post by temomma on Mar 28, 2011 12:16:51 GMT -5
I agree temomma, it does seem discriminatory though I don't know if it is intentional on their part. I cannot judge theit intention, I am pretty sure they simply _do not have_ nonverbal IQ test. Does it make your life easier? If you do not know, you do not ask, they do not do. However by the law they should be sensitive enough to such things.
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Post by temomma on Mar 28, 2011 12:26:54 GMT -5
temomma, While the FSIQ should be interpreted with caution, it is not discriminatory to use the testing instrument as part of a full evaluation. In fact, it is precisely the scatter between and among subtests and indices that gives one insight into the student's profile, area of strength and difficulty. As a part of evaluation is OK. However to estimate someone's ability by FSIQ, when huge discrepancies take place is not OK. We are talking about discrepancies as big as 2-3 SD. At least our evaluator wrote that PRI gave more proper prediction of my son's abilities. I asked her at the very begining to conduct nonverbal test. When she discovered this huge discrepancy between PRI and VCI, she told me that there was no need to conduct nonverbal test. And she showed me TONI test, it looked very similar to WISC nonverbal part. I think it always good to have strong position, because anyway you never get what you really need, always much less.
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Post by michellea on Mar 28, 2011 14:03:25 GMT -5
Again, from my standpoint and my experience working in the field, the issue is not with the WISC. The issue is that the standardized reading scores are all solid. They are not low average or on the lower side of average - they are right in the middle and do not indicate a reading disability. If additional testing is to be done, my recommendation is that it is done in the area of reading, writing, language processing and CAPD.
Yes, scatter between index scores often are red flags for a LD. But, in and of themselves, they do not diagnose anything. If the non verbal test comes back with a high average or superior score, you still would not have evidence of a reading disability, because the reading scores that you have are all solid.
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Post by michellea on Mar 28, 2011 14:38:00 GMT -5
One other thought - What concerns do you have about reading? Is it the decoding (sounding out and reading the words), fluency (accuracy and rate) or comprehension - (full understanding of what he reads)? Given his language scores, I would anticipate that comprehension could become an issue as things get less concrete and more abstract. While his WIAT reading comprehension score is solid, I would take this with caution. The passages are relatively short and the questions fairly concrete - not as complicated and lengthy as one would get at school.
Again - this would call for additional testing in the comprehension realm.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 28, 2011 14:42:46 GMT -5
I concur with michellea. My son is an example of someone who would NOT appear to have a problem if you just looked at his WISC scores. HOWEVER, when one looks at his day-to-day class work, and sees his terrible spelling and illegible printing, it's clear that something isn't "quite right." I sincerely doubt he would score higher on a non-verbal IQ test. (He's been tested 3 times using Weschler evaluations over the years, and his scores are consistent.) My son's GAI = 150, because both his PRI and VCI are considered in the superior range. Although his WMI is the lowest of the 4 main components, 3 standard deviations lower, it is still within average range. Subsequent testing, using the TOWRE and GORT, were able to identify his "Specific Learning Disability in Reading" (It's dyslexia, except public schools don't use that terminology.) The GORT, for example, revealed that he's got very low rate, accuracy, and fluency, but his comprehension is good. My son also has dysgraphia and ADHD. I know he's not "typical," but it's only been through a combination of different tests and time that we have properly identified his issues, and the WISC was only one part of the puzzle.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 28, 2011 14:53:18 GMT -5
Yes momfromma,
The WISC itself is not the problem, my problem lies in how it is being used. If the FSIQ is "indeterminable" but used and a GAI can not be given, and it is compared to the WIAT(which is also elevated and he is not achieving near "average" level in the classroom) is it premature to rule out SLD by this test alone?I am also concerned that a practicum student performed the testing and maybe that skewed the results as well. If he was performing at the level in which the WIAT suggests I would be sooo happy. His self esteem is my utmost concern and I want to make sure I am looking at all of the necessary information to help him. The school has agreed that he is making valiant effort, is extremely attentive but it is still below grade level across the board. If he doesn't bring his reading/writing scores up in the next two months, he is at risk for being held back again. I will definitely bring up that I think he should be tested using the GORT, TOWRE, CTOPP and TOWL that michellea suggested and hopefully that will shed a little more light as well as the CAPD results. My intentions for wanting more testing is to get him the support he needs at school but more importantly to know how I can help him more efficiently at home and give him the strategies he will need in the future to cope even beyond his academic life. I am not trying to bash the school and definitely not the WISC or WIAT, I am just trying to make this portrait of numbers meaningful and being new to the process, I want to make sure I am looking at it from all angles so I can help him meet his potential. I appreciate the help, I need all the different perspectives I can get.
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Post by temomma on Mar 28, 2011 20:54:23 GMT -5
chiaroscuro, I read this idea.ed.gov/download/finalregulations.pdf ( poor me ) somewhere in discussion I found, that you need to compare to peers, when peers are too low it's nice to compare to standard norms. Read carefully what your state tells, and what your school district tells. Insist to take PRI as ability, take papers to support it ( I would print the rules from technical reports )
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Post by SharonF on Mar 30, 2011 12:50:02 GMT -5
chiaroscura--
Sorry I haven't responded. Been busy with training and responsibilities at my job.
Others are giving you solid advice about additional evals and how to proceed with the IEP team.
I simply want to give you a {{BIG HUG}} and reassure you. The difficulties that you went through as a child in school sound heartbreaking. I'm very sad to say that education, in many respects, hasn't come very far since then.
What you described about yourself are pretty typical for CAPD and Sensory Processing Disorder. They can occur together or separately. And if a person has CAPD and/or SPD, there is a greater likelihood that they will have a form of ADHD and possible Executive Function Disorder. Triple and quadruple whammy!
Because there are no IEP categories for CAPD, SPD, ADHD, or EFD....most schools don't test for them or talk about them.
But these and other "invisible" disorders are very real. And as you personally have experienced, they can affect everything from sleep to friendships to grades...and definitely affect self-esteem.
As a child, my husband was also told he was "lazy," "slow," and "not applying himself." One teacher finally said dh must have dyslexia, but no one tested him for it or did anything about it. So my husband told me while we were dating that he was dyslexic but I don't think he really knew what it meant. I didn't understand dyslexia. And I don't think his teachers did, either.
Jump ahead 30 years. When dear husband and I attended IEP meetings for our kids, the teachers described our kids, especially our son, with the EXACT SAME WORDS my husband's teachers had used to describe him decades earlier. He laughed it off with lines like "apple doesn't fall far..." but I could tell it brought back some deep hurt.
You mentioned your son's perfectionism. Perfectionism can be a heart-felt attempt to show responsibility and regain some control...in a world that feels out of control. Perfectionism can be an attempt to please the people who influence our sense of self worth.
But perfectionism is death by a thousand cuts. It's exhausting--mentally and physically--to constantly try to prove your worth. And when the effort doesn't pay off in consistently better performance, the person's self-worth plummets even more. Perfectionism is a vicious cycle that often does not pay off.
We saw that in our son in about 4th and 5th grades. This is before we knew he had LDs. My dh and I noticed that he had become a "lazy perfectionist" (that's our term...which we never said to our son.) He WANTED everything to be perfect. But as the years went by, the effort became harder and harder and harder. And that's also when his anxiety built up, silently, over many years.
michellea suggested a neuropsych eval. Great idea! I strongly suggest you find a *developmental* neuropsychologist or *developmental* neuropsychiatrist. Not any neuropsych.
I wish someone would have explained the difference to me. Some neuropsychs specialize in Traumatic Brain Injury or stroke. They don't spend much time with younger patients who had no head trauma, no birth trauma, but just seem to process information differently than other kids in the same classroom. If the docs don't understand *developmental* neuropsychology, they could be like my son's ill-informed neuropsych who told me it was impossible for my son to score the way he did on IQ and achievement tests.
Once we knew the difference, we took our daughter to a developmental neuropsych who specialized in children and teenagers with learning issues. WOW! Amazing difference! I still thank God for that woman and her ability to figure out why some things were so hard for dd, while other things were so easy. Her diagnoses and explanations made so much sense!
You also mentioned that your son's WIATs are higher than his classroom performance. PLEASE don't let them push that under the rug or try to explain that away. The higher-than-expected WIATs could be significant. Given everything else, I think your son has the ability but something in the classroom is keeping him from using his ability. And there's a 99.9% chance your little 7 year old is NOT holding himself back. Especially if he's being a perfectionist.
It could be that he's is not able to quickly process verbal information--what he hears, what he reads or both. Instead, he may need a lot more visual or multi-sensory input. It could be that he does best working on one little task at a time. Or that he works best without background noise from a classroom Or a combination of things.
You've got a lot of personal experience..with your own experiences and four kids. You've got good instincts. You've found a great support network here!
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 30, 2011 16:48:37 GMT -5
Sharon,
Thanks for the hugs and reassurance I really could use them. The IEP meeting is tomorrow and his CAPD eval is next week. The school said they would prefer to start services for him right away and that they would be willing to have a revision meeting if necessary to incorporate or change any goals & coordinate any input from the Children’s Hosp. team. If I sign for him to begin speech would I also be agreeing that I feel there are no other SLD's? I will bring up the other test that michellea and healthy suggested(GORT, TOWRE, CTOPP and TOWL)
As far as the WIAT scores are concerned, they are elevated but I wonder if it has to do with the one on one, quiet setting of the test? Also do you think it would matter if a Practicum student performed the tests(could lack of experience skew the results?) I don't want to focus on that if they truly are qualified.
After the CAPD/language results come back I will look into having a developmental* neuropsychologist evaluated him also. So any other advice? Thanks
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Post by michellea on Mar 30, 2011 17:27:46 GMT -5
chiaroscuro, I know there are differing views, but my recommendation to parents that are not yet covered by an IEP, is that they should at least partially accept the proposed IEP. This gets your child covered by IDEA and it helps to jump start at least partial services.
It is your right to call a meeting at any time to ask for an amendment. Once your child is on an IEP, if you present the school with independent testing they must convene an IEP meeting within 10 days (at least these are the regulations in my state) to discuss the report and make changes to the IEP if necessary.
The school may ask you to sign a form saying that you accept their evaluations. I would sign that I do not accept the evaluations in full and indicate that you are arranging for private testing. This leaves the trail. They will also ask you to sign an attendance sheet - this is fine to sign as well. Make sure you ask for a copy. In my state, the TEAM must give you a copy of the agreed upon goal areas (not the goals themselves) and the service and delivery grid (schedule for services including where the services are located, who delivers, how often and what goals the services address.) We are supposed to get the final IEP within 10 days. Your state most likely has similar guidelines - check your Parental Rights to find out.
No matter what, do not sign the IEP at the end of the meeting. You have a right and obligation to take it home to read and digest. Our state has 3 response options: Accept in full, Accept in part, Reject in full. If you choose to accept in part, you should state that you are rejecting the absence of a reading goal and associated services (and anything else you are concerned with). By accepting in part, you get the speech services going.
I question the WIAT only because your description of what you see at home is so different. I'm not sure what happened, but the neuropsych evaluation should shed additional light. Also, I would ask for data collection from his current reading program. You mention that the reading teacher is concerned with his slow progress. Hopefully she is keeping running records of the skills he has mastered, his reading level and other measures. I would get copies of this and make sure that you give it to the neuropsychologist.
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Post by hsmom on Mar 30, 2011 17:44:08 GMT -5
I also wonder what reading program the teacher is using; whether it is a research-based, multi-sensory program based on O-G principles.
Do you know which program they are using? Knowing this would be helpful.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 30, 2011 18:13:20 GMT -5
hsmom,
The ER says he is receiving researched-based reading instruction. They call it CAS (Communication Arts Support) . I don't know if that helps. The reading specialist is concerned with his decoding, accuracy and comprehension. His regular teacher says he does well on the comprehension for her but agrees he has trouble decoding accurately. He also seems to do well with comprehension at home as well, (surprisingly) despite the slow/labored reading he does.
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Post by bros on Mar 30, 2011 18:17:17 GMT -5
Ask the reading specialist how they plan on tackling the decoding issues.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 30, 2011 18:25:41 GMT -5
I will, bros The suggestions so far are to have him read a short passage over and over until he can read it just like he would talk normally. Then find any mistakes and have him read it again till it is correct. For him this could mean 12 times to say normally and another 12 for mistakes. This is part of the reason that his self esteem is breaking down.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 30, 2011 18:29:42 GMT -5
michella, I do want to start speech because I do think he needs it so badly. Thanks for the rest of the advice.
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Post by michellea on Mar 30, 2011 18:32:56 GMT -5
I did a search and did not find anything by that name - I wonder if that is a local term to describe a support program that supports language arts? I would be interested in knowing if they are using a published, research based program? From what you describe, it sounds like he needs a systematic, multisensory program that addresses decoding. Typical programs would be OG, Wilson, LiPS, Barton, Singerland, Project Read. If fluency is an issue he needs instruction in fluency such as Read Naturally or Great Leaps. He probably could benefit by work on sight words and phrases, usually found on the Dolch word list or Fry word list. This comparison matrix gives you a good snap shot of common reading programs and the skills they address www.interdys.org/ewebeditpro5/upload/MSL2007finalR1.pdfI would be very concerned if the school is using some sort of eclectic approach - taking a little of this and a little of that. Results from such an approach are often disappointing. Especially if delivered by a teacher with limited experience and training and or in a group of disparate students. I'd do a little digging at the meeting to find what they are using. If it is CAS, ask for the publisher and some info about it. For instance, it would be interesting to see the scope and sequence of the skills it adresses and the methodologies it uses. Couple of good books to help you understand reading issues: Straight Talk About Reading by Louisa Moates Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Saywitz Your library should have both.
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Post by bros on Mar 30, 2011 20:16:29 GMT -5
I will, bros The suggestions so far are to have him read a short passage over and over until he can read it just like he would talk normally. Then find any mistakes and have him read it again till it is correct. For him this could mean 12 times to say normally and another 12 for mistakes. This is part of the reason that his self esteem is breaking down. That sounds like a rather unusual approach. Like using one's head to bang through a brick wall.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 31, 2011 6:08:40 GMT -5
michellea,
Thanks for the link on the reading programs. I will find out this afternoon what they are using with him at school and how they plan on tackling the decoding issues.-Thanks
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Post by hsmom on Mar 31, 2011 10:34:35 GMT -5
Good luck on your IEP meeting.
Michellea gave you great guides as to finding out about your son's reading program. As she said, he needs the right program taught with fidelity in order for him to progress in learning how to decode.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 31, 2011 10:39:40 GMT -5
Thanks hsmom,
I definitely could use it. I am a bit nervous not knowing completely what to expect, but everyone's advice has helped tremendously. I will try to post back after the meeting.
Thanks again!
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Post by temomma on Mar 31, 2011 11:57:12 GMT -5
Good luck on your IEP meeting.
I would sign partly to start speech. I signed everything to start speech, regret much now.
What is your school about RTI? This is like a dark horse. You do not know which one they apply and it's hard to predict its efficacy. Our former school, however, found that regular RTI to develop fluency ( which are based on repetitive reading with little modifications) did not work for my son. Also they found that he had problem phonics, and suggested he needed phonics and phonemes awareness _intervention_. I am going to use this data to support my fears about dyslexia. My point is they can use some RTI instead of well known programs.
Unfortunately, it can be too late, but you could take the voice recorder with an example of your son's reading. Let him to read the math problem, whatever he has to read at school. I would definitely do it.
Good luck.
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Post by hsmom on Mar 31, 2011 12:46:33 GMT -5
My understanding of interventions used in RtI is that it has to be research-validated. Perhaps in practice it is not. Tonya Gall, in a presentation, explained that RtI intervention should not be continued indefinitely, especially if the student if not making progress. There has to be a time to move to identifying the learning disability and to create an IEP for the child. Please see information and link to her presentation below: Understanding Evaluations and Educational Plans Speaker: Tonya Gall, Ed.D. Certified School Psychologist Navigating and understanding the evaluation process can be extremely challenging. Parents are often confronted with test scores, confusing terminology and difficulty in understanding various types of evaluations. Assistance is often needed when learning how to access and monitor support in and out of the school setting. Topics to be discussed include: *Understanding the difference between school and private evaluations (including RtI data) *Understanding test scores and terminology *Learning about special education decision-making *Creating an educational plan that matches students' needs *Progress monitoring and evaluating the effectiveness of an educational plan www.readibida.org/PNFeb162011.phpThe presentation above is a long document, but on page 15, there is a list of websites that provide additional information including one for the National Center on RTI (listed).
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 31, 2011 16:07:47 GMT -5
Hi, my husband and I went to the meeting and it all was very fast paced in discussing the Er and IEP. The reading specialist was not in attendance because the IEP was strictly related to speech services he is to receive. I expressed my concerns about the tests, in my son's case, not being conclusive enough to rule out reading , or writing disabilities. I suggested the GORT, TOWRE, CTOPP and TOWL. I was assured by the team that by signing It would not be closing doors for my son for other testing/services and they will be monitoring him very closely and will give him more testing if he doesn't show improvement. They said they will be having a meeting every nine weeks and that I can call a meeting at anytime as well. They also said that they will include any input or accommodations that Children's Hospital team may offer. The School Psych. admitted that his profile was difficult to measure and that she could not define his true ability but she feels hopeful that the low scores had a lot to do with his language disability and she is hoping that the Sp services will help bridge the gap. I ask what reading program they were using and the Principal stated it was based on the work of Isabel Beck robust vocabulary. Is any one familiar with this? They said the reading specialist was going to send me her most recent assessments also. His teacher also agreed with me that he was not achieving at the same level in the classroom and she shares many of my concerns, which was good. The speech therapist also said that my son results throughout the testing had been puzzling to her as well. She said when she performed the first test he passed within the average range but upon digging further he show a substantial deficit in expressive language in comparison to the WIAT but if we took his PRI as the starting point it would be severely lower. That is why she is so eager to start services in speech but also agrees that by conventional standards he may be compensating enough to go under the radar. I left a letter with them stating my concerns and reasons for wanting the GORT, TOWRE, CTOPP and TOWL and about his current classroom performance. Even though they were very reassuring I still feel unsure about signing. I will have him see a developmental neurosych after the CAPD/LANGUAGE results come back.
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