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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 16, 2011 12:41:53 GMT -5
Hi, I need some help with deciphering my 7 year old's WISC-IV & WIAT-III results. This test was administered because of difficulties he is having with Speech, Spelling, Reading and to rule out Specific Learning Disability. He had language delay-phonological disorder. Any direction/insight on the scatter would be appreciated. Here's his scores:
WISC-IV FSIQ-108 70% - significant difference in VCI/PRI
VCI 95 37% Similarities-10 Vocabulary-8 Comprehension-9
PRI 129 97% Block Design -16 Picture Concepts-12 Matrix Reasoning-16
WMI 102 55% Digit Span-10 Letter-Number Sequence-11 Arithmetic-11
PSI 97 42% Coding-7 (low average) Symbol Search-12
WIAT-III- Total achievement-105 63% Basic reading composite-102 55% Total Reading Composite-104 - 61% Oral Language Composite-105 - 63% Mathematics Composite- basic skills & oper.119 -90% Math Fluency- 111 -77% Written Expression Composite-91 -27%
Told-P:3 Total 93 Listening-100 Organizing-91 speaking-88 Semantics-94 Syntax-91 ELT -78 8% one standard dev.below mean
Sequencing-75 Metalinguistics Total-83 Defining-84 Generating examples-87 Syntax-78 Concepts-78 Categories-86 Id Categories-103 Defining Categories-89 Generating examples-69
Also CogAt Results last year Verbal-89 25% 26/44 Quantitative-102-73% 34/44 Nonverbal-139 99% 44/44
The school said though there is significant scatter they feel my son is of average intelligence and therefore does not qualify for a SLD but does qualify for speech and language services. I expressed concern for three years he needed speech/language. They insisted he passed screenings. They also do not feel he is gifted in PRI because of the one subtest score in picture concepts. Does this subtest have any language component that may be skewing it? He is very cognizant of his difficulties and becoming discouraged. Could he be Gifted/Learning Disabled?
Thank You so much. I respect the wealth of knowledge that all of you have. We will be discussing an IEP soon and I could use some advice.
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Post by momfromma on Mar 16, 2011 12:56:17 GMT -5
I will leave others speak about twice-exceptional students.
This said, results on young kids like that are sometimes unstable, and it is true that many schools say gifted at a SS of 130. It is also true that the WISC is not a great test for kids with a language disability, because every single test is given in a verbal way. You may also want to note that, at his age, the Block Design test is untimed and sometimes, scores fell when kids reach the age where the test is timed.
What is clear, however, is that his perceptual reasoning is much higher than his verbal reasoning, and this is what should be important, in order to define a good learning profile that will help him, in particular with his weaknesses in language and coding ( a big red flag for spelling and copying), and his strength.
He is getting SLP services, which from all his tests is essential. I would focus on these things and forget the gifted label for a while, except if there are some concrete consequences I am missing. It is clear your son is very smart. It is also clear that his difficulties in the verbal realm must be frustrating and that he must be helped, something the school seems to be ready to do now. Make sure he gets the services he needs and that the goals cover his needs.
Note: I do not see the SLD from the scores, but your son is smart and young, so he may be compensating. However, though I am not familiar with the ELT test, it is clear the scores are low and this reflects on his verbal IQ scores. If he did not get SLP services earlier, time for him to get them, and it is important he gets those he needs.
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Post by VaMom on Mar 16, 2011 13:08:51 GMT -5
momfromma,
I am confused.... does a huge discrepancy between one part of the test and another not usual mean a SLD? Or does it have to be the verbal is higher than the perceptual and the other way around does not qualify?
That said, although I am not the OP, your comments helped me a lot... there were several aspects of testing you mentioned, such as block design test untimed and timed, that I had no idea about. Thank you.
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Post by momfromma on Mar 16, 2011 13:11:43 GMT -5
As I understand it, a discrepency between IQ and achievement is what shows a SLD. Here, the discrepancy is between the vernal and perceptual. This suggest a weakness with language, but the WIAT results dont show in difficulty in learning. The problem here is that he is very smart and very young, so he may compensate. My take (that I used for my son) is that it is more important to get him remediation and appropriate teaching than to discuss whether he has a language disability or an SLD,
I guess it could be a SLD in language, but I assumed that the poster referred to a SLD in reading or writing, and this does not show in the test results.
This said, the discrepency also makes the FSIQ fairly useless as a diagnostic tool. If I was the OP, I would strenuously protest if the school wants to consider it as a sign of his ability.
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Post by SharonF on Mar 16, 2011 13:36:00 GMT -5
chiaroscuro-- Welcome!!! Yes, I think your son has a learning disability. We'll address the giftedness later. I don't think your child will receive the services he needs if his IEP category is Speech/Language Impaired. Please tell the school that, due to a law passed by Congress in 2004, a child NO LONGER must have a "significant discrepancy" between IQ and achievement to qualify as Specific Learning Disabled (SLD.) See the first bullet: idea.ed.gov/explore/view/p/%2Croot%2Cdynamic%2CTopicalBrief%2C23%2CFurthermore, his fullscale IQ score is not accurate. The extreme scatter between his VCI and PRI means any composite using those scores in invalid. 108 is not his actual IQ. So they cannot say that he has an "average" IQ. Likewise, I doubt that his achievement is truly "average." His total reading is fine, but I'd like to see the breakdown of his WIAT scores for word attack, pseudoword decoding, comprehension, spelling, written expression, etc. Just like his WISC full scale (composite) doesn't show his incredible strengths and relative weakness in how his brain thinks...the WIAT composites don't tell us what parts of reading, math and written expression are harder for him or easier for him. I'm guessing those composites are also made up of widely-scattered subtest scores. Before saying he doesn't qualify for SLD, the school needs to show you all of his WIAT subtest scores. And I think you need to have more testing done. I'm guessing he has a language processing problem. But that's only based on the score pattern and my experience with my own kids. Like many people with his learning profile, his difficulty is not only in processing language. It is also in sequencing. And in dealing with the smaller details. He's probably a "big picture" thinker. He gets the "whole" but often struggles with the "parts." For example: he may understand words but have trouble with the phonics within each word. That often shows up as weak or inconsistent spelling. He may do fine with sentences but have trouble with the words within each sentence--which affects syntax and grammar. He may understand math concepts but have trouble keeping the numbers straight while doing math problems. That might show up as computation errors. He may have trouble with the "easy" stuff and quickly learn the "hard" stuff. He may over-rely on rote memorization for things like spelling and learning word-based concepts such as definitions. The school is acting like they've never seen this before. But your son's profile is actually pretty common. He is strongly visual/spatial. He has weaker language processing ability. www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htmIn the school's defense, his scores don't automatically point to an LD as defined by federal law. Wide scatter is not an automatic reason for an IEP. But it's often a big red flag. And I'm assuming he's having unexplained difficulties in school. Those difficulties are why you had him evaluated, right? What types of difficulties is he having, other than becoming discouraged? What is hard for him? You mentioned reading. Does he have trouble recognizing words that should be familiar? Trouble sounding out new words? Does he skip over little words? Or does he read fluently but have trouble understanding the meaning? Does he spell phonetically? Or does he have trouble remembering the sounds each letter makes? Does he do okay remembering the sounds made by "hard" consonants (b, d, t) but struggle with similar sounding consonants (c/s...or c/k.) Does he have trouble spelling correctly when using similar sounding vowels (short e/short i)? Does he spell inconsistently? (By that, does he spell the same word different ways in the same paragraph?) What does he work on with the SLP? If teachers change their approach, does it help? For example, does he do better if he gets taught the big concept first...then the sequence of details? Does he do better if he is taught with lots of visuals/hands on and fewer words? Does he need information in smaller "bites"? To answer your question about subtests in the PRI, yes...some PRI subtests require varying levels of language processing. Even though those tests measure nonverbal IQ. A wise psych once told me that the WISC PRI requires people to "talk themselves through the steps." But picture-thinkers often don't do that well. They don't do a lot of "self-talk." And they definitely don't talk themselves through the steps. That requires *sequencing* which they often are not good at. Picture-thinkers think as many as 30-thoughts per second. People who think in words only think seven thoughts per second. That difference is important. Picture-thinkers can think so much faster than the average bear--when they are allowed to think the way their brain was designed to think. They are more intuitive about answers. They don't know HOW they know, they just know. But put a picture-thinker in a typical classroom and their brain feels like it's stuck in the mud! Their brain tries--but can't turn all the words into meaningful pictures. Whether it's the words-words-words spoken by the teacher..or words on the page..words just aren't as meaningful to picture-thinkers. They feel stupid. I don't think he's gifted in the typical, academic sense. Education generally rewards word-thinkers. Gifted classes usually don't use fewer words! Instead, they move much faster through the curriculum and expect the students to be more independent in their learning. It's very possible to be a *gifted* visual-spatial learner as the above website explains. But schools rarely see that lop-sided learning profile as a gift. Many gifted visual-spatial thinkers become discouraged in school. They KNOW how much easier life is when their brain is thinking in pictures. They know how hard it is when they have to turn other people's words into meaning...and to convert their own thoughts into words. Most teachers are word-thinkers. They cannot think without using words. I'm guessing your son cannot think in words--and thinks with his five senses instead, mainly in pictures. You mentioned you thought your son needed speech/language help several years ago. Was that for speech articulation? Or something else? You said he was screened and passed those evals. Was he tested for language processing, maybe using the CELF (Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals)? Was he tested by a developmental audiologist for auditory processing disorder? Don't agree to an IEP for Speech/Language Impairment. Too often, it only means pullout with an SLP but no real help for the student in the classroom. Ask for additional evals using the CELF, the Test of Written Language, and for Central Auditory Processing Disorder eval done by a developmental audiologist. Those results dig deeper. You'll need to dig a lot deeper to uncover what's going on and how to help him.
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Post by momfromma on Mar 16, 2011 13:59:05 GMT -5
I agree for the additional tests, but I would also ask an OT test. The coding result is low, particularly for a 7 year old, and, added to the writing samples that are relatively low, it could point out to some difficulty with writing that it would be good to rule out.
In addition, the processing speed is an other example of an average result that means nothing as the combination of a low average score and a score at the top of the average zone.
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Post by SharonF on Mar 16, 2011 14:21:43 GMT -5
momfromma--
Good advice. Low Coding could be caused by a number of things...from weak attention span to weak working memory to weak visual processing ability to weak fine motor skills. Good to tease that out now!
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 16, 2011 14:41:06 GMT -5
chiaroscuro, I think momfromma and SharonF have given you a very good explanation of things, with the best advice being not to worry about whether your son fits a "formal" definition of gifted or twice-exceptional, but to focus more on his needs. You can certainly read about 2e students and learn more information here: millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Education&action=display&thread=9972Unfortunately, I am also unfamiliar with the ELT test, and can't help you to interpret it. I do want to add that in addition to the WISC Block Design subtest being untimed for children under 8 years old, so are the PSI subtests. A drop in these scores would not be surprising, if your son was retested with the WISC at a later date. The PSI subtests are "pencil to paper" and most closely correlate to accomplishing handwritten work in a classroom, but additional testing such as the TOWL, and an occupational therapy evaluation would be good to do. With regards to the IQ testing, instead of the WISC, some non-verbal tests that can be used include the UNIT, C-TONI, and Leider, but again, for now it would probably be best to turn attention towards remediating your son's weaker speech and language areas, so as to enable him to reach his maximum potential.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 16, 2011 16:38:21 GMT -5
Thank You momfromma, & SharonF,
Your replies were very insightful. I apologize for not giving my son's history and current struggles which led to the evaluation. He had language delay and was diagnosed at age 4 with a phonological disorder by a speech language pathologist. He had great difficulty with articulation and phonetic awareness and people outside the home could rarely understand him. Through working with her and a lot of practice he made great gains in his speech but was still clearly having difficulty with expressive language. She recommended that later he be evaluated for receptive/expressive language. He was retained in kindergarten for extreme difficulty in reading and decoding. He had come home from school on many occasions crying because during activities(ex. show and tell) no one could understand him. I had expressed my concerns for him in speech at every parent teacher conference and was told every time that he had passed the screenings with the minimum score requirements and he is making wonderful progress. This went on unfortunately too long. My son has a wonderful demeanor, he is very bright, sweet and extremely hardworking. He is currently in the first grade and has had received specialized reading instruction 4x week since kindergarten as well as a lot of practice at home but still not near proficiency. He often has letter /sound omissions and substitutions. He is having great difficulty with spelling missing almost all of them on the pretest. He has reversals especially with d and b. He brings home inconsistent scores. 100%/50%. He loves math and grasps complex problems but is very slow on timed test. He loves Lego's and taking apart every toy he can find making new ones out of them, wants to know how everything works. He is constantly looking for patterns in things even in reading (he finds words inside of words) back wards and by rearranging letters but struggles to decode.He dislikes rule breaking words and tells me every time we encounter one.
He is currently in process of getting an auditory processing evaluation done by children's hospital, another reason this test was administered. He has displayed signs of auditory processing issues. His "hearing" is normal but he is sensitive to sounds (holds ears),frequently mishears me(cap for cat) has never been able to sing familiar songs words correctly and so forth. It has been a very slow process in getting the support I feel he needs so badly. We work on reading at breakfast, after school we do homework, play rhyming and word building games, memory and at night we read again. They tell me at school that more repetition will help him. My son is working constantly and I am so proud of him. I am so worried about his self esteem and him loosing his love for learning. I am worried about the work load becoming too taxing for him. He is very visual spatial and unfortunately his talents do not get recognized at school but his deficits are always before him.
This is why I am here, not to have labels(Gifted/SLD) for him but to get direction on the best ways to help him and be a good advocate for him. I also am new to this and do not know what to ask at the IEP meeting.
I do truly appreciate any input you may have.
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Post by michellea on Mar 16, 2011 17:47:14 GMT -5
Does the picture concepts subtest have a language component - not exactly. But for kids with a very strong VCI, this is often the test in the PRI index that they do the best on because they can use their verbal reasoning to answer the questions.
As others have said, his FSIQ is fairly meaningless. He has lots of scatter within indices as well as between. These are reflags of a LD, but cannot prove/disprove LD by themselves.
Is he gifted? I think you'd have to look to whatever standard the gifted program requires. He does have some very strong scores and clearly is very bright. My son has similar scatter and highs and lows. And while he is quite bright, I know that he would not be able to manage most gifted programs given his reading, writing and processing deficits. So whether he is gifted doesn't really matter. What does matter is meeting him where he is so that he can unleash his gifts.
Your second post helps clarify. My guess is that there is absolutely a language based learning disability that most likely affected his VCI scores. His symptoms do sound like CAPD and I'm glad you are having him evaluated.
As far as the scores you posted - I agree with Sharon that I would like to see the subtest scores for reading on the WIAT. I'd also like to see other reading tests such as CTOPP and GORT to get an idea of his phonological processing and fluency. I am not that familiar with the TOLD and ELT but he has some low scores there. Especially the ELT - scores in the 60's and 70's should be closely considered. Plus, a speech and language evaluation should also include evaluation of language samples taken during classroom and unstructured activities to assess how he is able to use language in more complex situations. Based on what you describe, I think he might struggle a bit with organization and formulation of oral language - and this is sure to affect classroom performance and writing (if you can't say it, you usually can't write it).
If he has not had a formal speech and language evaluation, I would insist that he have one. A screening is not an evaluation. If you ask for it in writing, the district must do it.
The good news is that with strong instruction he can learn. But it is essential that the school understand his learning profile and support him so he can make appropriate progress.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 16, 2011 18:47:32 GMT -5
Should you want to read more about CAPD, here's a link to a presentation given by Dr. Jeanane Ferre, a well-respected audiologist in the field of auditory processing difficulties: www.ocslha.com/Ferre.htm
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 16, 2011 23:24:49 GMT -5
Thanks, I am very glad I posted here, as everyone has already given me wonderful advice. I will ask the School Psychologist for the subtest scores for reading on the WIAT and post them. Should I ask them to hold off on IEP until the CAPD results come back? I do not know how this works.The Audiologist said she is also going to have my son tested in the speech language department as well, possibly on day two of the eval. for word retrieval ect... I will also look into the other tests that some of you have mentioned. I agree that my original post was sort of vague on why I was wondering if he was Gifted/disabled? I was not looking to put my son in the gifted program as it may have sounded. I know he would struggle immensely and it would hinder rather than enrich his talents. I am trying to understand his profile and make this portrait of his difficulties versus strengths meaningful so I know how to advocate for him and teach him more effectively. The school said to interpret his FSIQ with caution and then basically told me it was accurate depiction and that all my hard work had "clearly" paid off because of his achievement scores. Which is unfair to my son who due to his dutifulness and perseverance is making gains but still is not able to achieve the same way in the classroom. I am afraid of other learning issues going under the radar, just as his speech disability did, thus loosing more valuable time. They agreed to do this testing because the Audiologist prodded and wondered why it already hadn't. I would like to work constructively with the team for the sake of my son but not at the expense of him. Now thanks to you, I have some places to start the educational process in myself to help give him the strategies he needs to grow, which is the most important thing in this equation. It is sad it has to be so difficult and so many children become like shadows on the sidelines of IQ versus Achievement. I will try to get those scores..
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Post by sgk on Mar 17, 2011 3:25:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I am also unfamiliar with the ELT test, and can't help you to interpret it. I do want to add that in addition to the WISC Block Design subtest being untimed for children under 8 years old, so are the PSI subtests. A drop in these scores would not be surprising, if your son was retested with the WISC at a later date. The PSI subtests are "pencil to paper" and most closely correlate to accomplishing handwritten work in a classroom, but additional testing such as the TOWL, and an occupational therapy evaluation would be good to do. With regards to the IQ testing, instead of the WISC, some non-verbal tests that can be used include the UNIT, C-TONI, and Leider, but again, for now it would probably be best to turn attention towards remediating your son's weaker speech and language areas, so as to enable him to reach his maximum potential. Just to clear up some things that I believe are incorrect. As I am typing this, I am looking at a WISC protocol to make sure I am not giving out false information... To my knowledge, block design is timed for all ages. As a matter of fact, it is timed even on the WPPSI. As for coding, although there is a different Coding protocol for 6-7 year olds, it is still timed for that age group. The same is true for symbol search. As students get older and get further on block design, they start to get "time bonuses" for finishing the more complex designs faster. I assume that is what some are referring to when they say that it is untimed for younger children. However, as long as they get the item correct within the specified time limit, they will get points. If they complete the design after the time limit, they will get zero points. This is true both on the WPPSI and the WISC. Symbol search and coding have the same time limits and no time bonuses regardless of age. The only difference is that students 6-7 have different shapes than the older kids. At age 8, students are getting the exact same testing and protocols as students who are 16 yrs old. Hope this helps
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Post by SharonF on Mar 17, 2011 7:26:57 GMT -5
chiaroscura--
You are a wonderful, loving, caring mom who obviously is doing EVERYTHING you can to help your son. You have my complete respect!
Hold off on the IEP. You (and the school) don't have enough info to determine what your son needs to receive a Free, Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) as required by law.
Thanks for the additional information about your son's history of speech articulation difficulties and phonological difficulties. As michellea said, the school needs to do the CTOPP and GORT. Maybe the TOWRE and a rapid-naming test. The WIAT is too general.
What you need is a lot more specifics--so you and the school understand what is happening when your son tries to read. Even how much time it takes to see a picture of an everyday thing and recall the name of it.
Thanks also describing his ability with Legos, finding patterns, and desire to follow the rules. Those are also important clues about how his brain is wired to process information and to make sense of the world.
You mentioned your son is receiving specialized reading instruction 4x a week. What method are they using? Is it multisensory? Orton-Gillingham is the most widely known multisensory reading program. Wilson, Barton and Lindamood Bell are also good multisensory reading programs. But for them to work, the instructor must have special training and do the program as it was intended. Not water it down or change it so that it works best for the school. There is no IEP category for auditory processing disorder. Many schools want to classify kids with CAPD under Speech-Language Impaired. But as I said earlier, if a kid has innate languge processing difficulties, SLI is usually not a good fit.
SLI kids usually have pull-out with an SLP. Reg-ed teachers assume that pullout is "fixing" the problem. SLPs can do wonderful things!!! But language processing impairment usually cannot be 'fixed' through pullout/resource. Language processing ripples through everything the person does, in class and out.
Is your son at first-grade level in reading, spelling and math? Especially at that age, some schools reward kids for working hard and trying hard...even if they are actually performing below grade level. His day-to-day performance is very important to consider when determining IEP eligibility under Specific Learning Disabled.
Does your school offer Response to Intervention? Does he receive the specialized reading help through RtI? Or who/what determines what type of help he receives during his specialized instruction?
Sorry for all of the questions. Every school and every state seems to do things a little differently. Or use different terminology. It helps to know what *is* being done so we know where some gaps might be.
Hang in there!
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 17, 2011 9:15:44 GMT -5
Thank you for the clarification, sgk! I haven't personally administered a WISC, but I got information from a site that inferred students under age 8 were not subject to time limits on some subtests like older students, and I misinterpreted that to mean there were no time limits on the PSI subtests. I was aware of the timed bonuses for the Block Design subtest, only because the psych who administered it to my son at age 13 said she'd never had anyone else get a perfect 19 before...
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Post by jw on Mar 17, 2011 10:45:47 GMT -5
Hi,
I am going to offer a different perspective! I remember when my son (who is gifted and has several LDs, including ADHD, slow processing speed, CAPD, etc.) was that age, and how hard he was struggling in school. We ended up getting him "qualified" for the gifted program (in his school district, they do this by state test scores and the OLSAT test), and it gave him a lot more credibility at school and gave us more leverage with the school when talking about his LDs. So I wouldn't rule out getting your son considered for the gifted category at school based on his excellent math/spatial scores. At our school, you can get the label and then opt out of the program in any given year if you are concerned about the workload....
Also, if the school sees that a kindergarten student is having trouble expressing himself and being understood by his classmates and doesn't see that there is a problem, that is a huge red flag. I don't remember if you have gotten your own private eval for him, but it may be time to do that (either through your own insurance or paying out of pocket, or waiting and asking for an IEE after this round of school evaluations are done).
Something to think about with your child - he has a Ferrari brain in a less-than-Ferrari body. So he can do amazing things one minute, and then hits the wall with his reading or speaking. It's important for his happiness and overall sanity to give him lots of opportunties to do things he loves, like legos, or even science or rocket-building camp. I would also caution you against pushing him too hard when trying to remediate his weak areas - speaking as someone who has been there, done that, i do regret how hard i pushed my ds in the early years. He ended up with an anxiety disorder, and even though anxiety runs in our family, i still wonder if he would have been happier if I had accepted sooner that he was never going to be a good speller!
I'm also wondering if your ds is having any problems with homework. given his test scatter, i wouldn't be surprised if he can fly through his math, and then takes hours on spelling and reading assignments. it might be worth asking the school for accommodations in testing and homework, so that he would be allowed extra time on tests and reduced homework. That would give you some extra time to spend on therapies that are paying off, too.
It might help to know that my ds, who didn't learn to read until he was 7 or 8, and struggled all the way through elementary school, is in high school now taking all acccelerated and advanced classes and flying through the curriculum. Things get easier for these kids who think in big pictures!!
Good luck, jw
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Post by michellea on Mar 17, 2011 11:01:27 GMT -5
jw - good point about allowing him to enjoy activities that he is good at and developing his strengths. I was cautioned early on by a very special, special ed teacher that I needed to insure that ds had down time and opportunities to succeed. I now caution many of my clients that they don't want the kids to feel like a project that needs to be fixed. There needs to be a healthy balance between addressing the weak points and letting a kid be a kid.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 17, 2011 16:37:04 GMT -5
Thanks JW,
Excellent points and I found your words very encouraging! I also received the sub test scores for WIAT-III
Listening Comprehension 108 70th Average
(Receptive Vocabulary) 113 81st Average
(Oral Discourse Comp) 99 47th Average
Early Reading Skills 101 53rd Average
Reading Comprehension 102 55th Average
Math Problem Solving 122 93rd Above Average
Alphabet Writing Fluency 89 23rd Average
Sentence Composition 91 27th Average
(Sentence Building) 102 55th Average
(Sentence Combining) 83 13th Below Average
Word Reading 96 39th Average
Pseudoword Decoding 111 77th Average
Numerical Operations 112 79th Average
Oral Expression 102 55th Average
(Expressive Vocabulary) 93 32nd Average
(Oral Word Fluency) 118 88th Above Average
(Sentence Repetition) 96 39th Average
Oral Reading Fluency 88 21st Average
Spelling 101 53rd Average
Math Fluency-Addition 108 70th Average
Math Fluency- Subtraction 113 81st Average
*Note: Those subtests in parentheses are the individual components of the subtest immediately above them. For example, Listening Comprehension is composed of Receptive Vocabulary and Oral Discourse Comprehension components in testing
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 18, 2011 15:05:11 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I am trying to write an outline to the school district as to why I feel it may be premature to rule out other learning disabilities based on the these test results alone and ask for more comprehensive testing. They want to schedule IEP next week. Aside from the fact that his CAPD evaluation has not been done yet(which will give us a much clearer picture to where the breakdown in his language is occurring), and the discrepancies between scores on the WISC-IV, (To my untrained eyes )Some of his achievement scores on the subtests for the WIAT-III that I posted above do not seem to be congruent with his current struggles/standing in the classroom which is below average. I am very inexperienced and can not interpret the numbers. Does anything stand out to you? This is all uncharted waters for me and I am so afraid of making mistakes so, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for making me feel so welcomed here!!
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Post by bros on Mar 18, 2011 16:08:19 GMT -5
Well, for one, the district cannot diagnose anything, they can only determine if a child may have a LD.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 18, 2011 21:18:21 GMT -5
Thanks bros,
Sorry to hear what you have been going through at school. It's terrible, how you've been treated. I hope things get better soon.
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Post by SharonF on Mar 21, 2011 11:23:54 GMT -5
chiaro-- You can attend the IEP meeting, sign the document that says you were in attendance, and let the Team know that you are pursuing independent testing for CAPD. After you get the CAPD results, you will share them with the team and discuss the next step. At the IEP meeting, don't sign ANYTHING agreeing or disagreeing that your son is eligible for an IEP or what services they will/won't provide. In other words, go to the meeting to show you are a cooperative team member. You are willing to hear what they have to say. But because the team doesn't have enough information yet, you are not willing to rule out an IEP or discuss appropriate services yet. The team doesn't have enough information to determine: 1) eligibility for an IEP 2) appropriate services The law says parents are equal members of the IEP team. In theory, you have as much power on the team as does the SpEd Director. Yes, this is daunting. It consumed my life for several years. Two ways to get more information: 1) Read Peter Wright's book "From Emotions to Advocacy." 2) Call your state's Parent Training/Information Center. They should have a hot-line to answer parents' questions about the IEP process. www.parentcenternetwork.org/national/aboutus.html
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 21, 2011 19:18:02 GMT -5
Sharon,
Thank You so much, I can not express to you how much you have helped me already as did so many on this site. Hopefully, as I gain experience, I too will be able offer some of the encouragement and wisdom that I have found here.
Looks like I have some reading to do ;D
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Post by SharonF on Mar 22, 2011 9:42:41 GMT -5
chiaro--
Glad to help. I was so overwhelmed when my son hit an academic brick wall in 6th grade and the school kept telling me it was all my son's fault. I didn't know what or who to believe.
After the school did their testing and said he was not eligible for an IEP, the pediatric neurologist recommended that I take the results to a private neuropsychologist. The neuropsych repeatedly jabbed the test results page with his index finger and told me it was "impossible" for anyone to get scores like my son got.
So the neuropsych repeated the testing done by the school...and got the same results. Then the doctor told me my son would NEVER graduate from high school. I collapsed in the doc's office in tears.
A few years before that, his elementary school teachers had thought my son was gifted. In 2nd grade, ds was screened by the school for their gifted program. But their IQ test showed ds' IQ was borderline mentally retarded. The school assumed ds had just had a bad day--and recommended we have him tested privately to get that low IQ number out of his permanent file.
So we took our son to a private child psych. That very sweet doctor tried but could not administer an IQ test to our son. The doctor said our son's anxiety was extreme. The doc guessed our son's IQ was in the normal range but couldn't be more definitive than that. The elementary school still thought our son was gifted and put him into all sorts of enrichment programs for gifted kids, despite his IQ.
We didn't really care if he was gifted or not. Things were fine for a couple years. But when he started failing all of his classes in 6th grade, we started looking for answers. The school tested him and, again, his IQ test was extremely low. Full Scale of 81, with both Verbal and Perceptual (then called Performance) in the low 80's.
Meanwhile, ds' achievement (reading, math, spelling) were all in the 110 to 130 range. That "reverse discrepancy" with achievement so much higher than IQ is what the neuropsych said was "impossible." But it was not.
His Test of Written Language was full of spelling and grammar errors, but specialist who administered it told me that, in 25 years of administering the TOWL, she had not read a story from a 6th grader with such profound depth and meaning. As she called it, "sweet sadness far beyond his years."
The school refused to give our son an IEP. They claimed their educational programs were fabulous because they were educating our son (achievement) far beyond his intellectual capability (IQ). I asked why was he getting Fs if their education was so wonderful. Their answer: he is getting Fs because he is lazy and not trying.
Thanks to people I met on this board, we hired another private psych to administer a nonverbal IQ test (Universal Test of Nonverbal Intelligence.) It uses no language, not even in the instructions. My son's IQ went from 81 (WISC) to 125 (UNIT.) The school refused to accept the UNIT results. I had to get the state to write a letter to overrule the school.
Simply put: my son's IQ is above average when no language is involved. My son's IQ is far below average when he must use language.
Thanks to people on this board, they convinced me to have ds tested for CAPD. His auditory processing scores were in the "severely disordered" range. As more and more testing was done, we found ds had profound difficulties with language processing, sequencing, working memory and processing speed. And over the years, he had developed significant anxiety. Put all that together, and THAT is why he was failing in school. He couldn't process the information in the way teachers were presenting it.
A year after all this, my daughter hit an academic brick wall--and her eval scores were even more complicated than my son's. So I immersed myself in the world of score analysis and understanding how learning differences become learning disabilities. Especially for kids who don't fit some pre-determined profile. Or some pre-determined IEP category.
Was it painful? Excruciating. Just typing what we went through ten years ago makes me teary-eyed. But we got through it. And I vowed that I would try to give back to other parents..just like so many wise parents and experts on this board (and the now-defunct Schwab Learning board) gave to me so many years ago.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 25, 2011 11:20:48 GMT -5
Sharon,
I too was teary-eyed when I read your story and it is heartbreaking that so many children are left to wait for the help they need so badly, while everyone tries to reduce them to numbers and squeeze them into nicely wrapped packages. These Children are forced to face there mistakes daily and expected to march on with such perseverance (which they do) yet are never acknowledge in the heroism they have shown. It seems these same adults can not even handle when a person may offer a suggestion or another way of looking things. It is taken as a challenge to their degree or knowledge. How can they expect more out of an innocent child than they do of themselves?
I do not want to imply that all educators are bad as I know there are many wonderful teachers who have impacted children’s lives in such positive ways and they deserve to be commended and have my utmost respect. I had my share of both and I was one of those children that fell to the wayside. I too was told I was lazy and that I would never amount to anything. I now know that I was suffering from sleep disorders and possible sensory dysfunctions. I still have a terrible time with florescent lighting and in school if it would flicker or make noises the words on my tests would shake and blend together making it impossible to read or answer even if I knew the material. I also would avoid eating lunch because one minute I would be in the cafeteria talking with my friends and then all of a sudden everyone’s voices would be amplified and I could no longer understand what they were saying. The best way I can describe it is that they all sounded like Charlie Brown's teacher. I was struggling to stay awake in classes, coming home from school exhausted, going to bed early, and still sleeping in the next day. My Mother was so worried about me emotionally that she had me tested for drugs and then for depression but I was never tested medically or cognitively for LD’s.
Because I was late so often they would give me ten days in-school suspension for every offense. I at one point had accrued three months of in-school suspension and though I was passing all of my core subjects I failed all of my electives and was not able to pass 10th grade. Because I failed they gave me no work to do and it was excruciating for me to stay awake. One time I fell asleep and the teacher picked me up by my hair and called me a low-class scum. The teachers would point to my name on the board and (how my days were rolling over to the next year) everyone would laugh.
I was never disrespectful and when I was at school I tried my hardest yet I was treated worse than the students who were suffering from extreme behavioral issues. I was a perfectionist and thought that by asking for help it meant I was weak, strange or unintelligent. I could not understand what was happening and regrettably I gave up and dropped out of school the following year. In doing so I made them right, academically I never did amount to much but I never lost my love for learning or life. I have found my talents in Science, Music and Art. I am a self taught oil painter (still life’s and portraits) and I plan to go back to college.
Above all, I have four wonderful children, ranging from age 14-7 and I am so proud of them. They are very complex and a constant reminder that children need to be approached and taught as individuals. My oldest daughter is in advanced classes and strong academically. My son who is 12 has also recently hit a brick wall since middle school (has gone from A’s to D’s) and is going to be the next one to be evaluated for possible executive function difficulties/ADD. My daughter 9 , who struggled in kindergarten is holding her own now in fourth grade and my youngest son( the reason I found this site) is helping me to understand how to help them all to achieve their potentials(even my own).
Sharon, your devotion to your children and commitment to helping others is so commendable and I cannot thank you or everyone else on here enough for the time, wisdom and support I have received.
It truly has been a blessing.
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Post by michellea on Mar 25, 2011 15:16:14 GMT -5
The reading and spelling scores all seem in line - solidly average. I'd like to see other tests to dig deeper - CTOPP, GORT, TOWRE to see if scores on these tests are also in the same range. But, in the absence of these measures, and not knowing more about your child's daily performance, his reading scores are on par with his VCI, and a bit lower than his PRI. Here is a good link to understand about testing for dyslexia www.concordspedpac.org/Whichtest.htmThe scores that are relatively low, are the writing scores. But these are not below average with the exception of sentence combining. Again, if he is daily written language work is a struggle, more testing in this area may be warranted. Did he have a speech and language evaluation? How are his memory skills? Lots of things can get in the way of academic performance, and even if he seems to have reasonable reading skills, I wonder what else might be getting in the way. Would you ever consider a private neuropsychological evaluation? Often these evaluations are more comprehensive and diagnostic than a school evaluation. You may consider requesting an IEE (independent education evaluation) at the district's expense. This would take time to schedule and get the report. But it might be more revealing.
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Post by temomma on Mar 27, 2011 22:22:23 GMT -5
WISC-IV FSIQ-108 70% - significant difference in VCI/PRI Google WISC-IV technical reports :). My son has very similar picture. His doc wrote, that because of significant discrepancy, PRI is better prediction for his ability. Technical reports give explanation when you can use FSIQ, and when you can use GAI. If discrepancy > 1.5SD = 23 , you cannot use even GAI. In this case ( yours and mine :) ) FSIQ is uninterpretable. As I can understand behind this discrepancy is a big problem :(
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 28, 2011 6:58:44 GMT -5
Thanks michellea, I will mention the tests at the meeting (CTOPP, GORT, TOWRE) as well as his struggles with written expression. He has been bringing home projects from school with only one line filled in and the rest blank. He also has been writing so lightly that you can hardly see it. When I asked him why he said "because my teacher will trace over my letters and say they're all wrong." I told him his teacher was just trying to get him ready for cursive(which he really wants to learn) and showed him how it made it easier to transition and so far so good, he is trying again I got him a Neo Cube as a reward for all of his hard work and he is so happy. I had to pull him away after three hours. His reading scores on the WIAT are elevated when compared to what they are seeing in the classroom and what I am seeing at home. At our last ESAP meeting, the reading specialist said "After three years I would have expected more gains, we cannot just keep holding him back." This is another reason these test were administered. We are going to be going over the evaluation report this week and I will see what they say. The Audiologist is also going to have him evaluated in the language department on day 2. Hopefully this will give us a clearer picture.
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Post by michellea on Mar 28, 2011 8:02:19 GMT -5
chiaroscuro - Given his difficulty with writing, an OT evaluation might be in order too. It is amazing that poor handwriting skills can play such havoc with written output. Some kids do better with cursive than manuscript. My guy found/finds both terribly difficult. In 6th grade he began keyboarding most every assignment. While his keyboarding skills are also weak, at least the final product is presentable. Regarding his teacher - for a kid that struggles, it can be overwhelming when it seems EVERYTHING they do is subpar. While it is important for him to learn how to form his letters and become at least functional, it is usually better for his self esteem, if the teacher focus on only one or two areas of improvement, and let go of the rest. Perhaps he needs to focus on forming his letters correctly and spacing correctly - and the teacher needs to overlook the size and darkness. Maybe he needs a scribe to get his ideas down, and he is responsible for the final copy only. It is impossible for a kid to work on everything if he struggles in a number of areas. He is juggling spelling, idea generation, organization, syntax, handwriting etc etc when he writes. If he has to worry about perfection in all of these areas at once, he is likely to shut down and leave blanks on his page - just as you see. This is a good link that discusses writing, what skills are needed, how deficits can get in the way, and ways to help: www.allkindsofminds.org/writingI hope that the read out of the evaluation report goes smoothly.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Mar 28, 2011 9:06:18 GMT -5
Thanks,
I am very worried about him. His perseverance has been his most valuable asset. His self esteem is breaking down and now I have to sift through all of his struggles with the added confusion of how his perfectionism is affecting his performance. His printing is neat and properly spaced when he goes extremely slow. It is hard to say if it is dysgraphia but more on the expressive language side of it. He is asking me for more math homework (he understands multiplication but is slow but accurate on timed basic facts. I think he so desperately wants to be recognized for something he is good at. It is very sad to hear him tell me he doesn't think he is smart, he'll never be able to read and that he is so afraid that he will be held back again. I am so concerned that by under estimating his strengths and his weaknesses he is going to shut down and he has only begun his education. I will let you know how the meeting goes so far the suggestions listed on the ER are more repetition which I don't think he can bear at this point.
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