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Post by chiaroscuro on Nov 4, 2011 22:24:52 GMT -5
I am so glad you responded healthy. I am concerned. This is just one example & was an assignment that was completed together in class so he was given the answers.
Yes my son is a very deep thinker and capable of giving much clearer answers when not required to write them if you give him a careful ear and extra time to explain. Because of his word retrieval issues he will at times have to explain the words he is looking for just to explain his answer. Does that make sense? So a one sentence answer turns into 5 sentences which can lead to confusion. All of that coupled with his poor spelling/ reading can at times overwhelm his answers and at that point his normally neat handwriting becomes messy and also disorganized. Half the time he just leaves them blank.
His understanding of the material seems to be good. At home he has been excited about what he is learning in history and telling me about the Native Americans and how it is incorrect to call them Indians. He told me how they made their homes out of mud and logs and some used animal skin to cover them.He also said how they taught the pilgrims to hunt and survive off the land and that is why they were thankful :-) So he is learning but as you said without an accommodating teacher or recognition of this issue, following years may be an issue. Especially if it is looked at as he is not trying or doesn't know the answers.
Should the reversals concern me too (he is eight and supposed to be in third grade)? When do kids typically outgrow this and when is it considered a potential problem?
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Post by healthy11 on Nov 5, 2011 9:40:38 GMT -5
From what I've read, letter reversals are not a big deal through age 7; since your son is now 8, and you have other concerns besides just letter reversals, it bears further investigation, which is what you're doing in the evaluation process. interdys.org/SignsofDyslexiaCombined.htmFor what it's worth, my son continues to make "reversals" and he's now in college....He's home this weekend, and earlier today, he asked me for his Grandmother's phone number, because she had sent him a gift and he needed to tell her "thank you." I recited the number from memory to him, and he punched it in, then I could hear it start to ring. A few seconds later, he said, "I got a recorded message saying that number has been disconnected and is no longer in service." Huh??? My son asked me to repeat the number, which I did, and he was looking right at the display on the phone, and said, "that's what I dialed; see?" It took me a second to realize he had flipped two of the digits, but there he was, looking right at it, and reciting the number out loud correctly, even though it was entered incorrectly. He got the area code right, and the ending numbers right, but the middle digits were reversed....that's how he usually goofs up spelling, too, with the beginning and end letters correct, and errors in the middle....
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Post by eoffg on Nov 6, 2011 2:38:51 GMT -5
Chiaro, with the reversals, do they occur equally throughout words, or more often at the beginning, middle or end of words?
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Post by chiaroscuro on Nov 6, 2011 10:30:52 GMT -5
Hi healthy & eoffg,
In looking at his writing from this year they seem to appear most in the beginning and middle. For ex. for June he wrote Lune, and rabbit he wrote rappit. On both of these examples the correct spelling was given to him and he had to copy the sentence. He also writes at the top of the page TC (together with class or completed together)with the C back wards almost every time and if he creates his own word searches the C is usually reversed. They told me C is not a letter kids typically reverse. On the American Colonies paper he wrote pilgrims with the g reversed and missing the r so it looked the pilpims. He rarely has reversals with numbers this year but occasionally will reverse 2,5,7. Overall, He has less reversals in general than last year with some papers unaffected but on others there is no consistent pattern (sometimes s,t,y,g etc.).
In reading he still frequently confuses dbqpJ and aside from those he will also sometimes read words back wards ex. nap for pan or pankin for napkin (so I was wondering for that if he is skipping words when scanning and upon going back he is reading it back wards? He also up until last year would write his first name back wards but his name happens to be a name that almost can be reversed correctly with the exception of two letters so I never really worried about that.
So most are declining in frequency in writing but in reading still prevalent. Hopefully this will be found at the Neuropsych eval if it is a problem. I just wanted your take on it.
Also on the spelling tests I noticed if he does well, his teacher will score it for ex. 19/24 but if he misses a lot, which is more frequent ex. 11/24 she will write 7/10(should read 6/10). This could be why he is receiving a B on spelling?
I wanted to edit- I found more reversals with d , in done together, dogs-ODgs and reversals with copying 6 /9 on math(the answers are right but problem copied wrong). Also one example of him spelling his name and sisters back wards?
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Post by healthy11 on Nov 6, 2011 10:51:20 GMT -5
I don't know when your regular parent/teacher conferences are scheduled, but when it comes to grading, you should definitely ask what kind of scoring criteria she's using. Every teacher is different, but what you've described doesn't make sense to me....
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Post by chiaroscuro on Nov 6, 2011 11:27:54 GMT -5
It is tomorrow. I could understand if she was scoring on basic words only or on all of the words (challenge too)consistently but it seems she is picking and choosing on which ever way it looks better. Another example is she wrote 10/10 but it should read 6/10 but she took 4 from the challenge side? I plan on asking her tomorrow. I could see if she is doing it for my son's encouragement but for scoring purposes she should choose one way and reflect the accurate scores. By doing this it makes it appear he is doing better and I will be sending in his report card along with her teacher rating scale for him to the Neuropsychologist. I do not know if it is intentional or not but I do not want another hindrance to his Eval. This feels like the last shot to have somebody look at him and help me understand what is truly going on and I want it to be unbiased. Should I send examples of his work to Neuropsych outlining my concerns?
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Post by healthy11 on Nov 6, 2011 14:51:45 GMT -5
You're not the first parent who has questioned whether grading "helps" or "hurts" a student's situation...while the child's self-esteem might be boosted in the short term by seeing a good grade, it certainly doesn't help them long-term if they aren't "getting" the material nor are they getting appropriate remediation, because they "look good on paper already." I do think work samples are especially important in your son's case, since there appears to be a "disconnect" in what you see versus what the school is reporting.
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Post by jisp on Nov 6, 2011 17:55:38 GMT -5
chiaroscuro, When my youngest was 9 I asked the school to evaluate my son. I was pretty sure he had dyslexia as his older brother is dyslexic and he had all the signs (trouble learning colors, issues with recognizing rhymes and phonemes). The school sped director called me one day to ask why I was so concerned about my son. She said she talked to the teacher and my son was getting all A's. I laughed. Because I had been saving all his work and right in front of me was a stack of spelling tests and there was not one test where my son got more than 50% of the words right.
It is because of that, that I ask the parents I help to periodically collect data on their children. By that I mean they should take the child's homework, which hopefully the child has done all by themselves and xerox it and put in a folder. This way they have an accurate sample of data to use if the school insists the child is doing fine, but they know the child is not doing fine.
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Post by eoffg on Nov 7, 2011 9:21:33 GMT -5
Chiaro, When we picture or recall a visual mental image on our mind? Both sides of our brain contribute their side of the image. Which are joined together in visual working memory. But you might consider the situation, where their is a difficulty with recalling the image from one side? When you look at a word and see it both eyes. What each eye sees, goes to opposite sides of the brain. Which are then merged together in visual working memory. But you might consider the situation where the image from both sides, isn't being merged correctly? So that the brain is being provided with 2 different images, that aren't joined together? So that when reading a word, where you gave napkin as an example. He could be switching from side to side, as he visually processes it? But another thing about these 2 sides, is that they operate as a visual-spatial mirror of each other. Where for example, if you extend both of your arms in front of yourself. Then you will find that if you wave one arm around, that you can mirror exactly the opposite movement with the other arm. Also if you draw Letters in the air with one arm, you will find that you can draw mirror images of the letters with the other arm, at the same time. So that you might consider this in relation to writing letters? If their is a confusion about which side of the brain is used to direct the movement as we write the letter? Then as we write a word, we could have an argument between both sides of the brain, over who will direct the movement?
But this also raises a question about visual dominance, and one eye being established as dominant. Where the dominant/ slave relationship between both sides of the brain, is critical to its operation. Which in practice, these 2 sides are used to locate a beginning and an end point.
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Post by bros on Nov 7, 2011 14:11:31 GMT -5
When I picture something I don't really have a visual image in my head. It is hard to describe. Probably because I don't really see out of the left eye, so a rather weak visual memory is stored.
I remember visual things like directions very well and can remember how to get to a place after two times of going there. I am better with verbal things though. When someone asks me how to spell something, I do not picture the word in my head, I tap my fingers in the air like I am using an invisible computer keyboard.
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Post by chiaroscuro on Nov 7, 2011 19:49:06 GMT -5
Hi I just wanted to check in and thank you jisp for your response. I will (& have :-)) be keeping samples because I do think he looks good on paper which is another reason he goes under the radar. I want to write more on my parent teacher conference today, the neurologist report and so forth but I am very limited in time today and tomorrow but I just wanted you to know I appreciate your help.
Thank you eoffg, (very interesting suggestion) and bros for helping me understand how much these issue can complicate things. My son said that recently in math, his vision went together and he saw a 3 & 1 as just an 8. He said it has happened before but he hasn't asked for help because if he closes his eye he can see it right.He said it does not happen all the time. I want to ask more questions...but can't right now. I did find out he has a 8mm Type 1 Chiari Malformation ( I know you asked before) I'll try to write back on Wednesday but please feel free to share if you have more insights because I'll periodically be checking in.
Thank you all so much.
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Post by Vintage on Nov 9, 2011 11:13:48 GMT -5
11/9/11 Chiaroscuro, I've read this Thread, and though I have nothing 'on topic' to add, I just want to chime in to say that I hope you'll be able to get the attention you need from the school. I was a Bilingual Teacher's Aide for a few months at an Elementary School. During that time, they also used me as a substitute teacher. Once, I was sent to a fifth grade room where I'd never been before and had never met any of the children to administer a rather long and involved test. The teacher told me, before leaving me there, to set up the cardboard dividers, so that the students couldn't look around and see each other's answers on the computer. So, I did this. About half way through the test, as I walked around, I saw that one little boy hadn't answered any of the questions,... or maybe one or two. I asked him 'why not'. He said that he couldn't understand the questions. I quietly read them to him. They were queries on some book that the class had read. Verbally, he was able to answer almost all of the questions perfectly. He simply couldn't read. It was heartbreaking that such a smart child had been allowed to sit there in 5th grade without getting any help. I also remembered that I'd seen him regularly sitting at the 'detention table' in the lunchroom for misbehaving.
There was nothing I could do. The teacher came back and took control of her classroom after about an hour, dismissing me. No one there listened to the TA about 'anything', and I was barely keeping my job. At the time, I didn't know about LD's. And, yes, the little boy was native Spanish speaking, but he sounded fine in English. I doubt that he could read in Spanish either. The only good news is that I saw that little boy with his 'grandmother' a year later, and she had taken an interest in him, taking him with her to her religious meeting. I don't think that the 'grandmother' was blood kin, but rather, her son had 'taken up' with the boy's single mother. I have hopes that the boy got help.
When I hear stories about children with so much potential being completely ignored by the system, I think of that child. - Vintage
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Post by michellea on Nov 9, 2011 17:34:53 GMT -5
Vintage - your story is heartbreaking. I can just picture this poor boy at the computer and at the detention table. How many kids are left behind in such a manner? More than we realize, I suspect.
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Post by Vintage on Nov 10, 2011 8:18:42 GMT -5
11/10/11 Thanks for reading, michellea! - Vintage
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Post by chiaroscuro on Nov 10, 2011 12:43:01 GMT -5
Vintage, thank you for sharing your story and offering your encouragement. This story of this little boy is heartbreaking and as michellea said, I agree it does happen way too often. It makes me wonder if they ever communicated his struggles to his mother or if they just said "He is so smart He is just isn't trying..." For a child to advance to fifth grade without being recognized as not being able to read/offered help is such a disservice and so sad.
This is a future concern of mine for my son. Right now they use the fact that he is not acting out to minimize his struggles and my concerns. I hear all the time "He works so hard, is so bright, polite and always has a big smile." which is good that they see how hard he is working (but does that mean he doesn't have a disability). I answer back "I am so proud of him and his determination is one of his biggest strengths but.....then ask why he is not able to access the material or struggling so hard with reading, writing, and spelling? It feels terrible to be handed a wonderful report card (that you hope to see your child achieve) and have to tell them why your child isn't doing as well as they say with a stack of his class work errors. They do not see the potential problem of having a child move mountains every day, only to barely keep up with their peers. They wonder why children who struggle eventually act out, have low self esteem or give up? If he had been acting out would they say it is because of that that he wasn't doing well?
It makes no sense... They say he is very cautious, deliberate and reticent.....hmmmm maybe because he hasn't went unscathed, because he is cognizant of his struggles and is actually trying to hide and compensate for them. I have been telling them how I am worried about him becoming a perfectionist and for a child that struggles that is a vicious cycle. They just don't see. His teacher is nice and encouraging to him but she hasn't worked with him enough to fully understand what has been going on. She thanked me and said she knows how hard I must practice Math with him because he is the top of the class? I told her that Math is really the only thing we hardly work on because he is so good at it and the other subjects consume the lion share of our time.
I know she didn't mean to insinuate that I do not practice reading, spelling, writing with him enough but that is what it makes you feel they think and it is that kind of thinking that perpetuates the problem. If my son is so bright, dutiful, determined, attentive, pleasant (which he is :-)) then why was he held back in kindergarten, placed in specialized reading for 4 years and making minimal gains, can't spell , writes confusing answers or leaves them blank..etc? It has been so disheartening and I can't even imagine what it feels like to him. I do want to have his vision assessed again but am confused on who I should take him to who could address the more complex visual problems that he may be experiencing. Any suggestions? I appreciate all of your help so much.
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Post by bros on Nov 10, 2011 15:13:05 GMT -5
TTry an ophthalmologist or a behavioral optometrist.
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Post by chiaroscuro on May 24, 2012 11:36:50 GMT -5
Hi everyone. Not much new info yet(Neuropsych eval canceled due to family hardship) but wanted to touch base and post DS newest Cogat and IOWA scores. Just to recap~ DS has history of language delay is 8 in second grade,has an IEP for expressive language and receives Speech. He did not qualify for specific Learning disability (due to using a cautioned WISC-IV full scale IQ 34point scatter and comparing it to WIAT III. His biggest struggles in classroom are with reading, spelling & written communication. His strength is in math.I thought I should post his recent Cogat and IOWA scores so as I get answers, it may help other children who share a similar profile. As of yet it has been very slow going and puzzling. Is anyone familiar with these test and comparing them? His Cogat scores from 2010 were Verbal 89 25% Quantitative 102 55% Nonverbal 139 99% composite 113 79% New 2012 Cogat Verbal 113 79% Quantitative 107 67% Nonverbal 144 99% composite score 127 95% note (huge jump in verbal?? & again perfect score on NV 2012 IOWA Vocabulary 34 Reading Comp 49 Reading total 40Word analysis 59 listening 58 spelling 18 Language total 43Math concepts 76 math problems 88 Math computation 98 Math total 93?? ITBS math achievement higher than Cogat suggests Core total 61any thoughts? This kid and his scatter atleast the gap is closing somewhat
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Post by SharonF on May 24, 2012 13:05:42 GMT -5
Hi chiaroscuro--
Thanks for the update. Congrats to your son on his progress. Are you seeing slow but steady progress in his classroom work? Or do his latest Cogat and Iowa scores NOT match his day to day performance?
I think the Iowa scores listed are percentiles but am not sure. Do you know?
I'd like to see the Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals, a Rapid Naming test, the Test of Word Reading Efficiency or the Gray Oral Reading Test...and probably a CTOPP or other in-depth phonological eval. I'd like to know what's sabotaging his spelling. Sometimes, it's phonological awareness. Other times, the kid masters sound-symbol association but spells everything phonetically. Or is that "funetticklee"? Obviously, a kid who struggles to sound out grade-level words needs a different instructional approach than a kid who has mastered phonics but can't spell irregular words.
I'm very pleased with his progress. But don't let the school use his big jump in his Cogat verbal and average range on his Iowas as a reason to take away his IEP.
I'm thinking the next big challenge might be for his IEP and SLP to address his written expression difficulties. When he turns 9, they can administer the Test of Written Language. I think it's important to have the TOWL done as soon as he is eligible.
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Post by chiaroscuro on May 24, 2012 14:49:22 GMT -5
Hi Sharon So happy to hear from you! Somehow he is getting a C in spelling. Here is an example of his most recent spelling test where he got 4/10 and we studied all week. Fault~fallt,crawl~crall,lawn~lown,sauce~sas,paw~pall,caught~colt. In his writing work he often spells something correct and then again in the next sentence it is completely different. He will be 9 in July. The Iowa scores I listed are I believe the National percentile rank. I am clueless on how to make sense of the performance profile. I can list the Standard Score and the National Stanine if helpful? At the bottom it gives #items,#attempted,%correct and %correct for students in his grade nationally. He attempted all problems His % correct scores in each test area are as follows.(The percent next to them will be the % correct for other second graders nationally) Vocab 53% 61% Reading compSentence comp 100% 76% Story comp 68% 67% Word analysisPhono awareness and decoding 56% 59% identify and analyze word parts 73% 63% ListeningLiteral comp 71% 67% Inferential comp 71% 67% SpellingVowels 70% 71% Consonants 33% 66% Vowel/Consonant combinations 50% 66% Affixes 0% 53% LanguageSpelling in Context 73% 74% Capitalization in Context 57% 71% Punctuation in Context 86% 63% Usage and Expression 65% 68% Math ConceptsNumber Properties & Operations 87% 67% Algebraic Concepts 67% 57% Geometry 100% 82% Measurement 40% 58% Math ProblemsProblem solving 84% 56% single step 89% 66% multistep 75% 55% Approaches & Procedures 83% 43% Data interpretation 82% 71% Read amounts 50% 69% Compare Quantities 86% 73% Relationships and trends 100% 65% Math computation Add with whole # 100% 62% Subtract with whole # 87% 56% When they compared his ability to achievement it said that his math computation was significantly higher than predicted and that his achievement was lower than predicted in 6 other areas~Vocab,reading comprehension,word analysis,listening,spelling & language. His overall achievement seems to be above average for second grade but not seeing that reflect in classwork/grades? Any other scores I should list? not sure what helps the most. The Cogat gave him a 7E(N+) profile I assume the E means extreme?
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Post by temomma on May 29, 2012 13:27:41 GMT -5
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Post by SharonF on May 30, 2012 7:30:43 GMT -5
chiaroscura--
Were the CogAT and Iowa Test of Basic Skills administered as part of an official IEP re- evaluation under IDEA? Or are all students in his class/school/school district given those tests?
I'm not familiar with the CogAT. But a quick check of the Internet shows it measures reasoning ability. That's fine and dandy to have that data, but I don't know if his reasoning ability is your primary concern.
Does anyone know if the Iowa Test of Basic Skills can be used as part of an official IEP re-eval? Usually, schools use the Woodcock-Johnson or WIAT to measure achievement in core subject areas. Many years ago, before No Child Left Behind and before mandatory state proficiency tests, the Iowa Test of Basic Skills was used by many schools nationwide to keep tabs on students' overall progress in core subject areas. But I don't hear of it being used to determine IEP eligibility or to help write IEP goals/services.
My point: these tests may not be giving you the specific information you need for a child with an IEP.
If you can, avoid the temptation to compare your son to grade-level percentages, or grade equivalents, or age equivalents. It's a parent's first reaction to compare your child to others. But when determining special education services, it's essential to compare your son to himself. What are his cognitive strengths and difficulties? What are his academic strengths and difficulties? What learning strategies work best for him? What doesn't work well?
The best way to compare a child to himself is by using Standard Scores. The wider the fluctuation in those scores, the more obvious the child's strengths and weaknesses.
As an example, his CogAT 2012 Nonverbal reasoning is a 144. His verbal reasoning is a 113. That's a 31 point difference. The key number when comparing Standard Scores is 15. The official term for 15 is "one standard deviation." One standard deviation in Standard Scores (a 15 point spread) is considered "significant." Your son's difference between nonverbal and verbal reasoning is 31, or more than two standard deviations. That's more than significant.
By comparing your son to himself, using Standard Scores, you can easily see his patterns of strengths and difficulties. That's more important than comparing your son to the kid who sits next to him in class.
BTW--the spelling examples you provided indicate your son has a pretty good grasp of phonics. He may not "hear" differences in similar sounds (paw and pall). That would likely be auditory processing. Or he simply spells phonetically. My 22-year old son still spells phonetically and often spells the same word many different ways in the same paper. He has auditory processing issues and also cannot revisualize words in his mind--so he can't tell by looking if a word is misspelled. In short, he's a lousy speller unless his memorizes the spelling of a word by repeatedly saying the letters out loud.
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