|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 22, 2005 23:56:07 GMT -5
Today has been a long day. I tried to help my son with multiplication again and it ended with more tears and more "I cant's". I know he has trouble with most any type memorization work, but we had been concentrating on other things recently and I guess I had hoped math was improving. I started writing this message earlier and it just got longer and longer so I deleted it. Be thankful. My son was tested last yr, in 2nd grade, for LD and they found no SLD. That is when we started looking at the ADHD dx. Even though he "passed" the LD testing, I was not impressed. He did have some low areas and a 12 point IQ descrepancy. I also saw the writing he had to do for the test that they considered to be "really good." It was not good and has not improved much with the meds. They were happy that he made complete thoughts but the "sentences" had no punctuation, capitalization or conformity of any kind. His teacher would have run out of red ink. Anyway, he was promoted and is actually passing with A's and B's at his new school. I AM very happy about that but I see the writing on the wall if things don't improve. His reading level and confidence have really improved. He is passing standard spelling tests this yr with much less work. However, he still cannot do math memory type stuff and continues to have problems with things that require attn to detail. He has only passed one math drill test. On these they time them on basic addition and subtraction facts that 'everyone should know'. He can do the problems if given enough time but....the teacher never counts these timed tests so they have not hurt his grades. Now we are on to multiplication and division. OMG....what a nightmare. I warned the teacher but I don't think she is aware of the trouble he has. She has not counted very many grades with multiplication and division on them. He does M and D on his fingers. This wouldn't be so bad if he skip counted well, but even that is hard for him. He understands the division concept but his multiplication skills are so bad that he doesn't do well. I will end this by saying that he is frustrated and so are we. The grades say he is doing well but I know at our former school he would not be passing. I see problems that I don't know how to fix. ( I'm a fixer. ) Anyway, have any of you found anything to help a child with memorization? We may be in 3rd or 4th grade forever. I cannot relate and that makes it twice as hard. I always knew if I worked hard enough on anything I could accomplish it or master it. ( Well, until I hit college physics.) It is hard to accept that my child may not be able to get it by working more or harder. I'm sure he will get it at some point, but will he get it in time. Any ideas?? Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 23, 2005 11:01:13 GMT -5
Does he understand the concept of multiplication? I tell my son, that it 2 x 2 = 2 two times ie. 2 + 2, 3 x 2= 2+2+2 or 3 + 2. Show him visually. Show him the multiplication with the entire table first: 1 x 2 = 2 2 x 2 = 4 3 x 2 = 6 4 x 2 = 8 and so on till 12, then show him that it is going up 2 at a time. Show him with the other table first. Get him to understand the concept then you can do flash cards etc. But first he has to understand the concept. There are also tricks: Like anything mutiply by 10, just add a zero to the number you are adding. Anything (up to except for eleven) multiply by 11 is the same number by is repeated ie. 2 x 11 = 22, 3 x 11= 33. Don't just say it, show it to him visually. The 9s, is (hopefully I can explain this well). The first number is always the one less than the number that is being multiplied by the 9. The second number is what you add to make up 9. For eg. 4 x 9 = the first number is 3 (because it is one less than 4) the second number is 6 because 3 + 6 = 9, so 4 x 9 is 36. or 7 x 9 = first number 6 (one less than 7), the second number is 2 (7+2=9), the answer is 72. Here's a good site that may help with how to teach LD kids or ADHD kids (just go to the math section). www.resourceroom.net/
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 23, 2005 11:07:35 GMT -5
The above is how I taught my son and with math I find that if I explain it the way he can understand and get the concepts he is able to do it. His speed of mental calculation is much faster than the rest of the kids. The school had them start learning the 2 times table, 3 times table and 5 times table first. So maybe these 3 tables cover alot of the possible combinations Also there is a CD call Multiplication Rap, it makes it into music, so it may be easier to memorize then.
|
|
|
Post by BettyAnne on Feb 23, 2005 11:35:48 GMT -5
This sounds so familar....my son knew most of his multiplication facts before Xmas. Guess what... He start long division in school and he finds it so hard because of the simple fact that he can't remember his times tables. I am starting to review these again with him. Thanks for the tips Mayleng. I never heard anyone explain the 9 times tables like you did. I never knew that trick my self, and I'm sure Brads teacher didn't think of the 9's like that. I am going to try to explain this to my son and see what happens. I have alot of trouble with spelling tests also. He is getting better but still not where I would like to see him. He does have a written output LD so I think this plays on the spelling as well as the written. He still spells words that were learned in Kindergarden wrong. Anyway they are giving him extra help in his school because he qualifies (you have to have a learning disability to qualify for extra help within the school). Bonus.....he still has to complete the same work as the other children in his class he just gets three extra classes a week to help with his LD. Like having a private tutor!!!
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 23, 2005 11:42:35 GMT -5
BettyAnne, I am glad to hear the school is trying to help him. I wonder if you could get his teacher to accept him verbally spelling the words out for his spelling tests? If you feel that he actually knows the spelling and his problem is in writing in out, since he has an LD in written output, you should be able to get that accomodation in his IEP.
I'm glad you understood what I was trying to explain about the 9 times table.
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 23, 2005 12:31:01 GMT -5
Sorry Bettyanne, I forgot that you are in Canada and don't have IEPs. Still if they are willing to give him the extra help and acknowlege his LD, then they should be willing to accomodate him.
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 23, 2005 13:03:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the ideas. I had never heard the trick about the 9's. That's cool, but I doubt he will get it and if he does the addition invoved will take him a while. I'll have to let you know how he does with that.
I had done everything else you suggested. He does get the 10's and most 11's with no problems. We have tried learning the tables in order first and skip counting, but he has major problems with the addition invovled. It could take us forever to get through one table and he will be in tears which upsets my husband terribly. He thinks my son is just whining instead of putting his mind to and getting it done. I think that may be a small part of it but.... He does ok with 2's and 5's because they are easy to skip count. So he is counting on his fingers while he skip counts to determine the answer. Still not memorized.
Yesterday he had the problem 60x3=?. It was like pulling teeth. He didn't know what 6x3 was. He doesn't skip count well with 3's or 6's so he was stuck. He had to add 6+6+6 on his fingers and by then had forgotten about the 0. He is easily frustrated.
He also doesn't have the common sense or whatever that is required to look at your answer and know it isn't reasonable. For instance....3x __=9 he might guess something wild like 10. He doesn't seem to understand that that is not even good guessing. I mean how can you multiply by a bigger number than the answer? When I try to explain, he gets mad. Somehow he figures that anything we have to correct him on like math or punctutation is our fault not his. That we are trying to ruin his life.
Anyway, I will look at he links and try to explain 9's today.
Thanks, KAthy
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 23, 2005 13:18:22 GMT -5
I have found several Multiplication Raps for sale at different places. Were you suggesting a certain one? Has anyone had good results with this? I have the School House Rock multiplication video but.....he doesn't like it. He does love music, though, so not a bad idea.
KAthy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 23, 2005 14:36:57 GMT -5
I think the one we have is from a teacher's site. Does he have any other math issues besides multiplication. If he does, it might be worth looking into a remediation program like On Cloud Nine by Lindamood Bell. If you have the financial resources and have a branch near you, it is worth getting him the help. Or you could buy the program and try teaching him yourself. It has been very helpful for some of the LD kids. Here's the link www.lindamoodbell.com/programs/ocnmath.shtmlwww.ganderpublishing.com/
|
|
|
Post by vickilyn32 on Feb 23, 2005 14:52:49 GMT -5
Here is another trick for the 9 times table. Hold all ten fingers up in front of you. If you are doing 9 X 2 fold down the second finger from the left. you will have one finger up before the folded down one, and eight fingers after the folded finger = 1 8 eighteen. 9X3 fold down the third finger. 2 on the left side and 7 on the right = 27, etc. I told my kids this in elementary school, and they show their math teachers every year.
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 23, 2005 15:03:49 GMT -5
We don't have Lindamood Bell Learning Centers here or any other learning centers that I know of. There isn't even one of these in the state. I went to the site to price the materials but couldn't find the price. It kept saying page not found.
I am not sure if he has other math learning issues or not. He seems to understand once it is explained clearly. He got the 9's trick right away. It seems to be things you just need to know quickly that bothers him. That...and all these word problems with tons of extra information for him to sort through.
Thanks, Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 23, 2005 15:24:10 GMT -5
You go to the second link I gave you, and click on the math section (listed on the left), and see the kits.
Here's what it says:
|
|
|
Post by SharonF on Feb 23, 2005 15:55:12 GMT -5
Kathy--
Many (not all) kids with ADHD have processing speed problems. Because the WISC-IV IQ test now has a Processing Speed Index (PSI), that is bringing new attention to processing speed problems. What was your son's PSI?
People with processing speed problems often have problems with long-term memory storage and retrieval, and with sequencing. Because these memory and sequencing problems are inconsistent, the child's standardized test scores don't match the criteria for Specific Learning Disabled. Their slower PSI brings down their FS IQ. And the impact of their memory problems on their achievement scores are inconsistent--so their achievement may not be scraping the bottom of the barrel. In other words--because of the nature of their memory difficulties, they don't have a wide enough discrepancy between IQ and achievement to fit the common, legal definition of LD.
The law (IDEA) says nothing about processing speed or long-term memory difficulties as being reasons to qualify for an IEP or assistance. So many schools do little or nothing to help kids with processing or memory difficulties. However, memory difficulties are truly an impediment to learning.
With the new WISC's emphasis on PSI, more people are being told they have processing difficulties. It is my hope that this will eventually mean the law will be changed to recognize processing and memory disorders as learning disabilities--or at least require that schools provide services to kids with processing and memory difficulties.
That doesn't help you with what you're dealing with. I understand--I have kids who study hard for tests and bomb nearly every one. My 9th grade son has a 3.4 GPA but got an F or low D on all but one of his midterms (he got an A on his band midterm. He studied with a private LD tutor. But when he tries to take a test, his mind goes blank. He does not have ADHD but has SLD. My 13-year old daughter, who has ADHD and processing impediments, failed two tests last week--even though the teachers say she knows the material. She has incredible visual memory, but can't remember multi-step processes or terms, or can't explain what she knows.
I just wanted to let you know you are definitely not alone!
|
|
|
Post by dmom32002 on Feb 23, 2005 17:54:52 GMT -5
I also wanted to add that its sometimes a LD because especially if they Subtract and divide better than multiply and add. This is my oldest, we had to pull out all the charts for memorization but he had honestly not even 5 minutes of memory. So it was necessary for hte frustration to have the charts.
He was never given a drill because of this, it would have frustrated him, my youngest has taught himself some neat little tricks. Not a clue how to even start with them. But the 7's are the fun ones to listen to him.
he would go really fast. 7, 14, 21, 28, and get stuck here we learnted to go to 35 and had trouble with 42 but 49 he knew
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 23, 2005 19:40:10 GMT -5
This is all very interesting. I don't think my son took the WISC- IV. I'm pretty sure it was the III and I can't find the results today for some reason. I have no idea about his procesing speed or any of that. I have this feeling that a little help in the right areas would make a world of difference, I just don't know how to go about it. I don't think the school will agree to test him with his grades as good as they are right now...unless he fails the MCT. That is the test they have to pass to promote.
Today was terrible and I finally lost it. He had a major pitty party accompanied by all the "nobody likes me", "you hate me" and "you always yell at me", and "I'm always in trouble"s that I could take. He got in trouble at school for repeating a bad word that one of his "friends" suggested he say and I didn't get upset. I helped him with math and didn't get upset. We went bowling and he started it. Did anyone ever sing that song when they were little that goes..."Nobody loves me, everybody hates me, think I'll go eat worms."? It was a cute song but he was not cute with his moaning and complaining and blaming...in public at the bowling alley. I don't know if we are starting to get a rebound effect again from his meds or if this was just a breakdown of some sort. He does this to some degree occasionally but not this badly and not in quite a while. He seemed so unhappy.
Do you ever just feel like there should be more you can do?
Kathy
|
|
|
Post by dmom32002 on Feb 23, 2005 23:14:34 GMT -5
I would ask the school for another set of the testing results. ALso I think you said a 12 point difference, we need to work on if there is something they didn't test. You could also ask for a independent evaluation, telling that he is still struggling more than he should.
donna
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 9:34:53 GMT -5
I feel stupid that I can't find my copy of his testing results. My only excuse is that we moved and I can't seem to find anything. I have the new school looking to see if they got the testing results in the transfer papers or not.
Thanks, Kathy
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 10:02:22 GMT -5
The school here doesn't have a copy of the results in his records. I guess all they transferred was a paper saying it had been done and that he didn't qualify for anything. No scores. They have crap in there that is worthless like a letter they wrote me in 1st grade when he was walking to school and was tardy a few times. lol But no scores....and no end of the year report card from last year. Guess I have to hope the old school kept up with them.
Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 24, 2005 11:42:57 GMT -5
When was he evaluated? Maybe when he goes to a new school, you can request them to do another evaluation since the last one is "lost". By the way, if you disagree with the school evaluation, you can tell them you disagree and request for and IEE. An Independent Evaluation by a nueropsychologist, and the school will have to pay for it.
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 11:52:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. His testing was final last May. I think we, my husband and I, have decided to wait out this year ( unless things change)as for as the school is concerned. We may be moving over the summer and we could start all this with a new school that we may be at for a while. We are military and my husband plans to retire in May. I think my husband doesn't want to rock the boat this year since my son is doing so well grade wise. I guess he is afraid we might make a bad situation for him. I don't know. I know things move slowly in the school system and there is only 2.5 months of school left here.
I did not know that the school would have to pay for further evaluation if we disagree on the findings. That is good to know. I also wonder how the test results would differ if it took it again with his meds. Just curious if they make alot of difference or not. Sometimes it's hard to tell.
His old school is mailing me a copy of his reports. I should have them next week.
Thanks, Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 24, 2005 11:59:22 GMT -5
My son's school evals were done without meds and he showed like he might have a learning disability (this was before he was dxed with ADD/Inattentive). We also did a Private Neuropsychologist eval which we paid for because I wanted to see if it was ADD or LD. He was evaluated without meds and also with Meds. It showed major improvements with meds (even though the meds was not at it's most effective, it still helped). The Neuropsych said his IQ is in the superior range, but the ADD was interfering so his real IQ would be in the Gifted range. So yes, meds can change the results. It was discovered that he has no LDs and that ADD was interfering with his learning.
If you were going to do the evals with the schools, I would do it without the meds - because sometimes the meds can stop working, or dosage changes need to be made etc. So meds can be inconsistent. So if you are looking to get accomodations or an IEP then don't medicate with you do the school eval.
Like Sharon said, processing speed should be taken into consideration because this effects the ADHD child in terms of output. So the type of test is important, make sure they do the WISC-IV IQ test that has a Processing Speed Index (PSI).
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 12:16:06 GMT -5
I am so happy to find such people as you guys with so much information. I need to go back to the Amen Clinic Forum and find out who I need to thank for giving me the link for this website. My sons IQ was actually a big disapointment to me on the test. I think his combined IQ score was only about 99. His performance IQ was about 12 points lower than the verbal IQ. So verbal IQ was above 100. I think I'm remembering correctly. Anyway, I just don't think his IQ is that low. I mean it is average but lower than the IQ scores of both myself and my husband ( we aren't genuises or anything). I'm not sure if I really buy those numbers. Then again, he may test 10 points higher with the meds. Who knows. I wonder how the biofeedback or interactive metronome would work? We have never lived close enough to anyone who uses those treatment modalities to really consider doing either. I'm very interested and intriqued by them, though. Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 24, 2005 13:09:52 GMT -5
If you came from the Amen netsite, you were probably referred to this site by Ohmama, who is one of our moderators. Does your son have problems with socializing ie. making friends etc? One of the red flags to me on Non Verbal Learning disability (NLD or NVLD) is a 15 pt difference between Verbal and Non Verbal IQ (verbal being higher). Some symptoms of NLD are similar to ADHD. NLD kids are very verbal but seems to have more problems reading social issues. Checkout these links and see if it relates to your child at all. Sharon F is very well versed in NLD. www.nldontheweb.org/about_nld.htmwww.nldline.comCan't give you much input on biofeedback or interactivemetronome because i have not hear many people having successes with either. I have heard on one successful case with interactivemetronome but the success is only up to a certain point. It is not a cure all.
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 13:38:53 GMT -5
Ok. I had looked into this before but had kinda rule it out because of his very poor attention to detail and very poor rote memorization skills. Many of the other characteristics do fit him but don't they also fit ADHD? My husband is always saying how he has no common sense and most jokes or sarcasm are totally lost on him. He takes what you say at face value and to heart. I think these things probabaly affect the way he makes friends. He usually has one friend or maybe two. HE could be in a group for some activity like choir and never know anyone's name. He wants friends but seems standoffish and awkward at times. He will seem fine but then be almost depressed if anything doesn't go his way. He doesn't know how to shrug things off and go on. Anyway, I'm not sure about the non verbal stuff...but I'm very interested in anything that might help us.
Kathy
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 13:43:44 GMT -5
I just went to the second link and this is the definition thay gave me:
What is NLD? Nonverbal learning disorders (NLD) is a neurological syndrome consisting of specific assets and deficits. The assets include early speech and vocabulary development, remarkable rote memory skills, attention to detail, early reading skills development and excellent spelling skills. In addition, these individuals have the verbal ability to express themselves eloquently. Moreover, persons with NLD have strong auditory retention.
The only things that fit ihm are early vocabulary development and pretty good auditory retention in subjects that interest him. The other characterisitcs are just the opposite. They are all the things we struggle with. I also looked at the physical characteristics. He is very coordinated in most things including baseball, bowling, basketball, etc. So....I'm not thinking that is is.
Thanks, Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 24, 2005 13:44:54 GMT -5
Kathy, it sounds NLD to me. NLDers have attentional and memory issues as well. Yes they want to make friends but find it difficult to figure things out. You need to explain to them down to the nitty gritty. They are literal. If it is NLD, meds will not help. That is not to say he cannot be NLD and ADHD.
SharonF, has a children with NLD and ADHD. She can probably give you more insights to this. NLDers can be taught socializing skills. You need to explain to them things you take for granted. For example, see this face, it is not smiling, it means he is angry or not interest or whatever depending on the situation. We take alot of non verbal stuff for granted, it is hard for this kids, it does not come naturally.
|
|
|
Post by dmom32002 on Feb 24, 2005 15:06:17 GMT -5
And its good to catch the nld early.
I need to research this more. I'm beginning to wonder about Derrick. But with the seizures I'm lsot.
donna
|
|
|
Post by kc4braves on Feb 24, 2005 15:20:51 GMT -5
How do you determine for sure? I'm not convinced just from reading on the NVD websites.
Kathy
|
|
|
Post by Mayleng on Feb 24, 2005 15:33:16 GMT -5
How do you determine for sure? I'm not convinced just from reading on the NVD websites. Kathy The only way is to have a neuropsych eval by a Neuropsych who is familiar with it. But the point is, if he is NLD, all you can do which is effective, is go through everything with him verbally. Just explain things to him down to the most finite detail and they will get it. Like with every other disability there are degrees of the disability.
|
|
|
Post by SharonF on Feb 28, 2005 16:00:32 GMT -5
WISC-III had a processing speed, but it was not an index like VIQ and PIQ. WISC-III also had something called Freedom From Distractibility. When a kid had a low FFW score (especially if both FFW and processing speed were low), the person giving the WISC-III often referred them to a pediatrician/pediatric neurologist for an ADHD eval.
Knowing his FFD and processing speed won't make him into a rote memorizer. But it may help explain why it's so hard for him.
|
|