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Post by swmom on Jan 20, 2006 18:26:16 GMT -5
Is anyone familiar with Saxon Math? Dd's school uses that for their math curriculum. The problem we're having is this. The teacher introduces a concept but there is no chance to practice it before moving on to the next concept. Each day, the homework consists of basically one problem from each of the previous concepts taught. Usually just one or two problems involve the concept taught that day. So, basically there is very little chance initially to practice the concept just taught. Dd is struggling with this. They are moving so fast - a concept a day - that it's very hard to keep up. It seems very strange to me that the kids aren't given a worksheet or some way to practice the concepts just taught. Is it me or is this really weird?
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Post by Mayleng on Jan 20, 2006 19:01:26 GMT -5
I don't think it is a problem with the Saxon program rather the teacher rushing and not making sure concepts are learned before moving on.
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Post by RobbysMom on Jan 20, 2006 20:02:46 GMT -5
We use Saxon 2 and 3 in the special education program I work in. It reminds me a lot of when my kids went to a British school -- you do a little bit of everything all the time. I think a lot of us grew up learning one concept at a time and then moving on never to use it again. With Saxon you don't stop doing one concept after you learn it, there is a little bit of everything you learn on the worksheets -- word problem, temperature, fraction, money, addition and subtraction would all be on one assignment. Does that make sense?
Although many don't like the Saxon program, I agree with Mayleng, the teacher is not spending enough time with your daughter to make sure she understands the concept being learned -- and if the teacher uses the Saxon worksheets all these concepts will come up again. Oops! Sorry, just read that the teacher DOESN'T give out worksheets. Well, the Saxon program we use has worksheets, maybe the teacher can get some for extra practice for your dd, even if she doesn't use them for the rest of the class.
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Post by alyssasmom on Jan 21, 2006 12:15:15 GMT -5
My dd used Saxon math in 1st and 2nd grades. She is now in 4th grade and is using it again. They will do the first half of the 4/5 Saxon Math book this year. If the teacher uses it correctly, the child will continue working on old concepts as the new concepts are being introduced. The Saxon Math, the way it has been explained to me uses a spiraling effect. Old concepts are on the large end of the spiral, spiralling down to the newest concepts. As new ones are introduced they move up the spiral. Make sense?
I love Saxon math and this teacher. Alyssa's math scores were in the 1st grade range in math when she started this program. The teacher sent me 23 pages, proving progress on each concept. It has been a lot of work for this teacher, but she was happy to do it, when at the beginning of the year, I asked for more than "making expected progress" when they send progress reports. She has been happy with the ability to "see" where the gains are, and what needs work. Each lesson, she goes over the homework to be able to see if the child understands each concept, or not. Anyway... She is the only teacher in my dd life this year, who can definatly say, where she is making progress, and where she needs to be re - taught! Just my opinion.
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Post by alyssasmom on Jan 21, 2006 12:18:16 GMT -5
Oh, I have to add, the teacher does this with all her students, not with just mine. So she is a very busy lady, going over every single paper that every child does, marking a y for yes and an n for not yet understood. She then can see a pattern forming...
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Post by swmom on Jan 21, 2006 12:42:01 GMT -5
I like the spiraling and see how it works. What I don't understand is why more attention isn't given to practicing the concept just taught. If dd doesn't receive some practice right away, she forgets it.
alyssasmom - does this teacher test the kids on the concepts just learned or is there a week's delay? Our teacher waits a week before he tests them. This seems to be just enough time for dd to forget. She's doing well in all other subjects. She is just not clicking with how this math is taught. She does have a weak auditory memory. Maybe that's it.
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Post by alyssasmom on Jan 21, 2006 14:12:44 GMT -5
The homework drives the concepts and understanding. If you look at the book, do you have one? My dd is on lesson 32. The lesson starts out, Warm up. Then new concept, with lesson practice. Then they work on a mixed practice. This is usually what Alyssa does for homework. Hope this helps. If they don't get the homework, and are only working on the new concepts, they are not doing this as it is intended to be used.
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Post by Mayleng on Jan 21, 2006 17:06:23 GMT -5
Oh, I have to add, the teacher does this with all her students, not with just mine. So she is a very busy lady, going over every single paper that every child does, marking a y for yes and an n for not yet understood. She then can see a pattern forming... This is what a good teacher does. My son's 4th grade teacher always makes the kids go over and make corrections on their homework or tests to make sure they understand the concepts and where they went wrong. Most teachers just mark the papers and move on, not bothering to go back and work with the kids on the answers that were wrong. She makes them correct math, spellings and also Social Studies if the answers are wrong - this is for homework, regular classwork as well as tests. My "non LD" 7th grader son's math teacher also makes all his students correct their wrong answers on tests. They don't get good grades if they don't bother to correct their wrong answers and submit it to him. He makes this as important as the test itself. This way, the kids go back and re-learn concepts they didn't "get" the first time around. swmom, I don't think your dd's teacher is teaching the program the way it should be taught.
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Post by swmom on Jan 21, 2006 18:33:55 GMT -5
I'm very frustrated with him, mayleng. Dd says after he presents the concept, he asks them if they want more instruction or the chance to do their homework. Of course, you know what their answer is! Dd wants more instruction but is afraid to raise her hand, thinking the other kids would be mad and they probably would. Why oh why does the teacher give them a choice? I don't like him. I think he's very lazy, not a dedicated teacher at all. It seems like the rest of the hour could be spent doing a worksheet or applying the concept they just learned to a real life situation. It is very suspicious. I mentioned to the director of studies(this is a regular private school) what he does and she said she'd investigate. Hope to hear something soon. I also hope she didn't tell him who complained!
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Post by Mayleng on Jan 21, 2006 19:43:50 GMT -5
swmom, It's good that you spoke to the director of studies. If you find that your dd can't keep up (is she the only one having trouble, I bet not), then request they give her extra help.
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Post by swmom on Jan 22, 2006 4:54:16 GMT -5
I don't think she's the only one. In fact, he mentioned that he was going to recommend tutoring for 5 or 6 of the other kids. Well! That's close to half his class. There are only 16 kids! Unless there is a learning disability involved - and there may be - 5 or 6 kids shouldn't need tutoring in my opinion. Something's wrong with the way he's doing it.
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Post by Mayleng on Jan 22, 2006 9:56:31 GMT -5
Then you have a very good case, that the way he is teaching it is not the correct way, and instead of making the 5-6 kids work more hours on math tutoring, teach it right the first time. Saxon math is supposed to be a good program and this teacher is killing it.
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Post by Beverly on Jan 22, 2006 11:21:52 GMT -5
It sounds like the teacher is teaching the program without sufficient training. OR teaching a program he doesn't believe in and creating a scenario in which it fails. Address the issue with the teacher, and if that doesn't get you anywhere, go to your principal.
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Post by swmom on Jan 22, 2006 12:25:09 GMT -5
I just discovered that when the kids bring the homework in, the teacher calls out the right answers to to the class. If a lot of the kids miss a certain one, he goes over it. If most get it right, the kids are left hanging. The teacher at that point does not take up the homework to see who did the corrections and who didn't. He just asks them how many they missed and records it. That's it. Dd, I just discovered, doesn't do the corrections because if she missed it the first time, why would she know it the second time, unless it's a careless error? Grrrr. This is so frustrating!
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Post by kc4braves on Jan 22, 2006 15:35:49 GMT -5
I'm by no means an expert on te Saxon math program but my 4th grader had it every year until we moved here. It was great for him because it was so repetitive. He isn't good with rote memory and Saxon went over stuff so much that he usually finally would get it. I also liked that the homework was almost like the work they did in class so I had an idea of what they were working on. They did side A in class and side B for homework. There wasn't ever alot of homeowrk with Saxon with any school we were at but enough that I knew what they were doing. (One school we were at sent no homework so I never knew what my child needed to work on.)
The biggest problem I have seen and heard about from other parents is that some kids get very bored with all the repetition. Kids that catch the concept quickly may be ready to move on but, usually, Saxon doesn't move you on all that quickly. He must not be teaching it the way we have used Saxon before. At least, it doesn't sound right. We were doing 4th grade Saxon math at the school we recently moved from and were very behind when we got here. They do not use saxon here. I miss it...for my son. It really sounds like you have someone who isn't reading the class well or using the program correctly. Or maybe higher grades are done differently in the Saxon program.
I hope you get it worked out for you child. I know how frustrating it is.
Kathy
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Post by swmom on Jan 23, 2006 9:08:30 GMT -5
Today should be an interesting day. I just sent an email to the director of studies to if see had met with the teacher yet. And another email to the teacher telling him that we have decided to help dd at home instead of letting her come to tutoring with him and why. I'll post their responses.
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Post by angel on Jan 25, 2006 21:17:54 GMT -5
SW I also think that Saxon is a good program. Many schools use it because it is successful. It really helps the kids retain the information for their standardized test. (Abeka works in much the same way) Let us know how it goes. It sounds like there are issues with the teacher, but you need to really tell dd to ask questions if she doesn't understand. Teachers sometimes don't realize when a child is not getting it, if they don't ask for help. Dd needs to realize it is ok to ask for help. My dd's school does Saxon, but they add much more to it. They also do Math4today and extra worksheets. I agree with you on the extra practice. If he is not going to give it, I would get some grade appropriate books from the store!! angel
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Post by rocco on Jan 25, 2006 22:21:22 GMT -5
swmom, my ds school uses saxon math, and I am amazed at all of the repitition. He does numerous worksheets. It was really successful for him because he has difficulty with rote memorization, so practiced his addition, multiplication facts so much they actually stuck with him. He goes to an LD school and is in 4th grade, but is doing 5th grade math now because he is doing so well. I wonder if you could order some saxon math workbooks online and use those with her at home? I agree that it sounds like the teacher isn't using it in the way it is intended.
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Post by swmom on Jan 26, 2006 6:36:50 GMT -5
Besides the worksheets used to practice math facts, her teacher does not use worksheets. He presents the concept once, the students do the problem sets in the book for homework and the next day they move on to the next lesson. Dd is in 5th grade. They use the 76 book, which I believe is normally split between the 6th grade year and the 7th grade year. They're moving very fast.
I'm going in for a meeting with the director of studies and the head of middle school to discuss all this. The director of studies says they want to show me the "school wide mathematics scores." I could care less. What matters is how my kid is doing. I hope they aren't trying to tell me that we don't belong there...
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Post by kc4braves on Jan 26, 2006 12:32:29 GMT -5
How terrible. I really hate the word "standardized". It's great that they want people to meet certain "standards" to graduate BUT we have been at too many schools that teach to the tests at the end of the year. They really don't care about anything else. I guess here in OK they have not passed the state standardized tests that MUST be passed in some states to promote. So, ds's teacher teaches 4th grade math and sends home a few worksheets every now and then to prepare for the achievement tests. She seems to be concerned about the class. I know she has thrown out some grades because she realized the kids weren't prepared. I was also told something that i found very interesting. His teacher told me that the entire school system is supposed to be doing the same thing. Meaning, if my son left her class and went to 4th grade math at another school in the district, they should be within one worksheet of where he is now. I found that incredible. So often you find one teacher, maybe like yours, who does his own things...teaches way above grade level or whatever, while other classes are doing totally different stuff. I can see moving some kids ahead if they are ready but the entire class shouldn't be a year ahead. That's just my opinion.
I really hope you get it worked out. Make sure they focus on your child not on test scores. Good luck.
KAthy
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Post by swmom on Jan 26, 2006 12:40:13 GMT -5
The thing I find so hard to accept is the emphasis on things that our kids will never use aS adults. How many of you have ever used long division past the 5th grade? Are there professions that need to know how to multiply mixed fractions? Why do we spend so much time on things we'll never use? If this isn't insanity, I don't know what is!
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Post by my3texans on Jan 26, 2006 14:02:27 GMT -5
It does really sound like the teacher is having troubles teaching the program. What I have seen is a worksheet with a class practice side & a homework side. My DD, 2nd grade teacher uses the class to go over the work as a whole class, & the homework side for them to practice in class on their own. For DS, 4th grade, they use the classroom side for them to work in class independently, & the homework side is homework to be returned the next day.
You might check a teacher's supply type bookstore for one of the workbooks that contain all the worksheets. Another option, if she just needs practice, is to check with your local library to see if they get old textbooks to sell, they are great for giving extra practice problems.
I, will add, that a teacher friend of mine liked the program, but did find that some kids did not do well on it. She said that she would get one or two every so often had trouble with the program.
As for some professions that use fractions -- any of the sciences or engineering do. Hubby is a chemist & is always using fractions & long division, granted he has a calculator, but he had to know how to do it by hand in order to understand how to enter the data into the calculator.
I actually use fractions & division in cooking all the time. I'm always trying to increase or decrease a recipe depending on whether I'm serving my family or making it for a church function.
I think the thing is that when the kids are just starting to learn it & the way it is presented & practiced in 4th/5th grade, is much different than the way it is used in everyday life. Mainly because we have learned shortcuts that can't be taught or used until the long version is fully understood.
Please understand, I'm not trying to mean or anything, you did ask if any professions use some this stuff. The answer is yes, many do, but professionals also have access to technology that is usually not allowed for kids til high school. The professional does need to know how to solve the problem without technology in order to know when there is a glitch with the technology.
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Post by swmom on Jan 26, 2006 14:47:23 GMT -5
No problem, my3texans. I went in a liberal arts direction and never used much of the math I learned. It's good to know that some professions do need to know some of the things learned. Fractions, of course, I use those constantly. It was the multiplying of mixed fractions that seemed a little unnecessary.
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Post by notab on Jan 26, 2006 16:17:17 GMT -5
My two older kids used (one is still using) Saxon in our private elementary school. I think that they called the 6/7 book a sixth grade book, so that would make 7/6 more of a seventh grade book.
Are all of the kids working at that level of math in 5th grade? My oldest son could have done that as he is a math wiz. He did 6/7 in 5th grade as did some of the other kids. His average was a high A. Then before 6th grade, he worked through 7/6 on his own. His goal was to test ahead two years in math for middle school placement - he made it. My daughter, on the other hand, is no less intelligent than my oldest son. However, her strengths lie more with wordy subjects. She is working on 6/7 in 5th grade this year and barely making A's. She likely will just stay one year ahead in math. I think it really depends on each kid's strengths. It would be tough for a school to get all kids doing well with an advanced level of math.
Regarding whether or not people use all of the math taught in these courses - my view is that everyone needs a broad education. Such math concepts fit within that. Your daughter will hit many more obscure facts/knowledge in her education than those you mentioned.
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Post by swmom on Jan 26, 2006 17:36:40 GMT -5
Last year, dd was in public school 4th grade doing 4th grade math. This year, she's in 5th grade, a regular private school and doing 6th and 7th grade math. It's been a leap to be sure and considering that and the speed at which they are moving, she's done really well!
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Post by notab on Jan 26, 2006 19:01:22 GMT -5
Considering that, I think that your daughter is doing pretty well. The problem with skipping some of the Saxon books (my daughter skipped one to move up to the 6/7 book this year), is that the later books assume that the kids learned the concepts from one of the earlier books. Likely what she is struggling with, and not getting enough explanation for, are those topics that were covered in the 5th grade book, etc. At least that is what my daughter tells me.
I am assuming that it will get easier for her as she learns more of the concepts she missed.
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