Please help with evaluation results

[G]

Okay, the results are here.
Part of the letter they sent with them states" It should be noted that during the administration Child earned low scores on some of the subtests dure to a lock of following directions. If the instructionss were properly followed, it is possible that some of the aforementioned scores would have increased."

WISC_IV
full scale 84
verbal comp 89
perceptual reason 96
working memory 74
processing speed 83

verbal com subtest
similarites 7
vocab 7
comprehension 12
information 11

working mem subtest
digit span 8
letter-number sequencing 3
arithmetic 10

perceptual reasoning subtest
block design 7
picture concepts 13
matrix reasoning 8

processing speed subtest
coding 8
symbol search 6


WIAT II

reading comp 89
math comp 88
writ lang comp 82
word reading 89
reading comprehension 101
pseudoword decoding 84
nemerical operations 78
math reasoning 103
spelling 85
written expression 82


They explained them somewhat but it is very clinical, it does not give it to me in black and white.
Like i said in another thread, I have a very hard time with such a low IQ score. i dont think that it is accurate. I understand that with her dificulties that tests like these may never show some childrens true intellectual gifts. But, I am sure they indicate where she stuggles, I could use some help in determinig that.
If by these tests I can figure out how to help her be the best learner she can be then I won't feel as if they were a waste.
Thanks for helping us!!

[Mayleng]

I have asked Sharon to checkin when she has time. Hang in there.

[brookelea]

many kids don't score well on an iq test, especially if they have adhd or another ld..
my dd, for example, bombed out on certain parts because she wasn't able to understand what was being asked.. she is much more visual than auditory - actually has an audiotry processing disorder..
she also answered very impulsively and without any thought..

the psyche wrote it all up and clearly stated that she does not believe the assessment to be true and valid because of my dd's impulsiveness.. she recommened that dd be reassessed in a years time, and that she should be on some form of stimulant to reduce the impulsiveness..

so basically my dd did exactly what your child did..
during the wiat ii her scores improved dramatically because the psyche was aware of dd's inability to focus and allowed for self correction..

[brookelea]

btw, the working processing memory is low.. have you had your child assessed for an auditory processing disorder?? that can drastically drop the working processing memory.. kids have to concentrate so much just to understand what is happening around them that they don't have enough 'fuel' left to work out the problem..
most of the scores are in the lower normal range, some are smack in the middle and some are in the higher range, ie comprehension and picture concepts..
the only real exception being the working memory, spelling, letter-number sequencing..
these have obviously dropped your child's overall score..

it seems that your child is intelligent, comprehension is great, especially given the fact that the vocab is low.. it means that your child can interpret what is going on without knowing the meaning of some of the words.. and that is brilliant!!

[SharonF]

Hi nat 605--

What difficulties is she having in school? Do these scores reflect those difficulties? How does your child learn best? I'm going to assume she does best with hands-on or multi-sensory instruction. The sequencing difficulties indicate she may be a gestalt or "big picture" learner who needs to learn about the forest first, then the trees. Most teachers do the opposite--teaching a sequence of steps or "trees" and assuming the kid assembles the forest on their own.

Since you're on this site, I assume your dd has ADHD. Is she medicated? I ask only because it can be interesting to see psych-ed testing results before and after medication. I am not pushing meds, but meds can help improve WMI and/or PSI for some kids. It doesn't make them "smarter," but does allow them to recall and use information more quickly and more accurately.

Working memory and processing speed are almost always lower for ADHDers than nonADHDers. The WISC-IV's heavy emphasis on WMI and PSI often means ADHDers have lower FS IQ's than their true cognitive ability.

Don't worry about her IQ being "low." Honestly, I doubt if the FS 84 reflects her true cognitive ability. However--it probably is a pretty good indicator of how she will do in school without supports. That's because the WISC measures intelligence in much the same way that information is taught and must be processed by students. Kids with weaker working memories and/or processing speeds are likely struggle more to learn with traditional instruction.

The statement that "If the instructions were properly followed, it is possible that some of the aforementioned scores would have increased" is very telling. It's written as though she can suddenly flip a switch in her brain and follow instructions. My guess is that "switch" isn't there. That's part of the reason she struggles in school: she can't follow instructions.

The psych needs to do more testing to figure out why. Working memory only? Processing speed? Auditory memory? Sequencing ability? Anxiety? Why can't she follow directions? You and the school can't truly help her unless you know the answer to that question.

The sequencing ability is obviously a big concern. Inability to follow directions is probably tied to the weak sequencing ability. As others have mentioned, that may be an auditory processing problem (auditory memory), but also could simply be weak sequencing ability.

Does your child tend to think rapid, random thoughts rather than do everything in order and in sequence? If so, it's another indication of why school is harder for her than the kid next to her who thinks sequentially.

Weak written expression is usually found when a child has poor working memory and poor sequencing ability. In many cases, there is no cure for poor working memory or poor sequencing ability. One great alternative is assistive technology such as the computer program "Inspiration" that helps kids with written expression.

Her IQ and achievement are generally in line with each other. BUT...that doesn't mean everything's hunky-dory. Her working memory, processing speed, poor sequencing ability and possibly inconsistent executive function ability are probably sabotaging her efforts to learn. She may be "burned out" just by the effort of trying to conform her learning style to traditional teaching styles.

There is no IEP category for that set of difficulties but they are very, very real. If your daughter has ADHD (any of the three types) and it is impacting her ability to learn, your best option is to push for an IEP as Other Health Impaired or a 504 plan for ADHD.

Then use those scores to show what her needs are and to develop goals (IEP) and accommodations (IEP and 504) to help her succeed.

Does that help?

[G]

Thanks brookelea. They did check her hearing and did some auditory testings but the report said it did not warrant a full evaluation.
The two test they did were TOLD I:3 and GFTA.

TOld subtest
Sentence Combining 6
Word ordering 9
Generals 10

Expressive language composite score 89

Picture vocab 11
grammatic comprehension 8
malapropisms 7
compositie score 91

hearing screening 20bd in both ears


FOr the GFTA all it says is that the sounds in words and sounds in sentences subtests were used. No articulations errors were noted on either of the subtests.

Would these tests indicate if she had an auditory processing disorder?
As you can see I am lost to the meaning of these scores.

Thanks for your help.
nat

[Mayleng]

Thanks for checking in Sharon.

[G]

Wow Sharon, thanks. I must have been online this morning the same time as you, even though mine posted later than yours. I did not see it until now.
You are very knowledgeable, are you a school psych also?

They recommened that she is monitored and evaluated further for innatentive ADHD. We did do some testing with that. Her dad and i filled out a form and they had one from her 3rd grade teacher and also herself. My dd rated her self as innatentive they told me.
She is not currently medicated. She is using omega, mag, htp. Two years ago, we tried Ritalin and it did a number on her stomach. She ended up on Prevacid to help her stomach heal.
Maybe I will have to talk to her physician again and see if there is a med that she could try. She is not hyperactive at all, I don't want anything to make her more sluggish. She is innatentive and somewhat impulsive.

I REALLY appreciate all of your help. Thank you thank you.
nat

[G]

Sharon, I do really notice that my dd has great difficulty in following directions. That alone causes her to do poorly on many tests. On a recent English test there were 6 or 7 differeent parts and each with its own set of directions. I know she knew her stuff but blew it on the test.

What other test could I ask for?
Can you suggest any activites to help improve her ability to follow directions, help in that learning area?

The difficulties that my dd have in school are mostly with directions, speed (as in timed tests) and memorizing facts. As basic math facts. We finally got the addition facts down, by doing them EVERDAY while bouncing the basketball back and forth.
SHe also of course just doesn't pay attention. The psych students observed her and said generally she paid attention 70-75% of the time compared to the other students in the class they observed who paid attention 90% of the time. The only exception to this was math class where she was more on task.

I really appreciate all of your help with this. What a relief having someplace to turn.
Thanks,
nat

[pattislp]

I can comment on the Language test... They DID NOT test her for Auditory processing disorder. They would need to do the SCAN or TAPS-3 or CTOPP to test for that. Also how she does with auditory discrimination with background noise and words given at the same time.

I have not given the TOLD-I-3in a long time. I have it at work. I will take a look at the subtests t make sure before I give you my full opinion. But from what I can see it looks like the SLP didn't do the full TOLD-I-3 and if she did she chose on what to report on and she should have given you a standard score with a percentile. If the scores you were given are percentiles then she would qualify as a student with a language impairment with anything in the 7th% range or below. i.e., sentence combining and malopropisms.

Incidently...I have a severe auditory processing disorder and ADHD, and from my experience it is tough to have both.

Believe it or not...my district asks me to give the auditory processing assessments... they also are getting me an ALD (assistive listening device) to use in therapy, during assessments and IEP's to help me compensate for my auditory processing issues.

Also, you need to treat the ADHD in order for her to improve her executive functioning issues and following directions. For my co-morbid DD who has ADHD and APD when we tried meds she was like..."Mom...is this what is feels like to focus?" Things are making sense now." She still has the APD, that will never go away, she wears 2 hearing aids but with the help of meds for 5 years now she has improved so much. She is having her TRI review now and oh, my land...the improvement has been dramatic.

[Mayleng]

Nat, I agree, you need to treat the ADHD or no learning really takes place. Also have a full evaluation done by a Audiologist who is familiar with APD. Checkout the thread we have of Tolerance Fading Memory - my son is ADHD/Inattentive with Tolerance Fading Type APD - which makes following directions and reading directions difficult.

millermom.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=comorbids&action=display&thread=1095792681

[G]

Thank you patti. I rechecked the report and there are no perentages on there. Just what I wrote before.

I was discussing everything you guys wrote with my DH. he is impressed. We do agree that without interventions our DD will probobly perform at the iq level they determined, although we strongly feel that is not her ultimate ability.

Mayleng, I did not get to check out that thread yet, that is my next stop. Does your son with innatentive ADHD play sports? The one thing we noticed with my dd when she was on the Ritalin, although it seemed like she was focusing more on the game, she was SO sluggish. Have you experienced anything like that?
If we are going to go back and talk to the pediatrician about meds I want to be well informed on the different kinds. I am sure there are probobly ones more geared to the hyperactive type and to the innatentive type? or no?

Off to read that thread. Thanks thanks.
nat

[G]

Question. if my dd does have APD rather than innatentive ADHD, would the meds help?

If she has both I know they will, or does the APD rarely occur without ADHD?

confused again,
nat

[G]

Thanks Mayleng, i quickly read that thread and i will go back. My dd has a lot of those characteristics, I think i need to talk to the audiologist again.

nat

[Mayleng]

nat605 said:

Mayleng, I did not get to check out that thread yet, that is my next stop. Does your son with innatentive ADHD play sports? The one thing we noticed with my dd when she was on the Ritalin, although it seemed like she was focusing more on the game, she was SO sluggish. Have you experienced anything like that?
If we are going to go back and talk to the pediatrician about meds I want to be well informed on the different kinds. I am sure there are probobly ones more geared to the hyperactive type and to the innatentive type? or no?

nat

No there are really no meds that are for hyperactive versus inattentive. It really depends on the individual child.

The meds does not make my son sluggish when it came to sports - in fact he was able to focus better. He took Tae Kwon Do for a while - 3 yrs, and did really well. By the time he does all the "sports", his meds is out of his system but he is still able to focus. He is on Metadate Cd (which is in the ritalin/methylphenidate family). He does intermurals at school on Mondays, I always find that he actually has more attention when he gets back to do his homework - and the meds are really out of his system them. He has been skatebaording on his own recently - teaching himself and he has done really good.

No, meds will not help APD - but there are certain exercises that might help. I am sure Patti can give some help here.

And no!, Sharon is not a school psych, she has two kids with NLD/ADD/APD, and is very good at reading evaluation reports. She gets compliments from School psychs too.

According to Dr. Kim Tillery (Audiologist) - there is a very high incidence of Cormorbidity of APD with with ADHD, NLD or other LDs.

Also check out this thread, there are alot of links about APD.

millermom.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=private&action=display&thread=1068576520

[G]

Thanks. I have been reading and doing my homework.
These test just lead to more questions, but that is a good thing I guess.
I actually have a parent teacher conference for my dd today. I am glad I got the report before our meeting.
They already got their report card for the fist quarter. Considering this is a big adjustment time, I was pleased.
All High B's and a solid C. I guess we can live with that for now. She missed two A's by 1 percent and another by 2%. she was a little bit bummed out by that.

I am curious to see how this goes today.
Thanks for all of your help, you guys are GREAT!!
nat