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Post by Brenda on Oct 6, 2005 7:31:01 GMT -5
I received the results from my dd's (7) evaluation.The meeting is Tuesday and I'm trying to undestand the results before the meeting. Her WISC-IV scores were all low average.Her Full Scale IQ was 83.It says she functions within the low average range of cognitive ability,and therefor her potential for learning is slightly delayed for her age. Her WJ-III scores are all average and high average. The Visual-Motor Integration Developmental test was below average.She was in the 8th percentile. It states that in the examiner's opinion,Stephanie is neither eligible for nor in need of special ed at this time.How could that be?Why would she score high on the Achievement tests but low on the IQ tests? Oh yeah,last years teacher reported that she did not have the ability to stay on task for any lenght of time.She said she was very disruptive,anxious,agressive and touches other people constantly.She has academic difficulties and exhibits behaviors associated with ADHD.We were trying strattera,ritalin la and other meds last year.She is the one who referred her for the evaluation.It just took her awile to complete her paperwork so the evaluation was delayed until this school year. This year she is only on a low dose of Topamax to help her impulsiveness.Her teacher this year said there is no concern at school regarding either attention or hyperactivity.She stated that she only exhibits mild conduct problems.There currently are no significant concerns in the school setting. Summary and Recommendations:Stephanie is neither eligible for nor in need of special ed at this time.She is learning as well as typical children her age,althogh some of her grades do not reflect that.Moreover,the low classroom grades are not due to a disibility.The following recommendations are offered for consideration: 1.Her parent's may wish to consider obtaining family therapy for dealing with her behavior dificulties at home.(I stated that she was having behavior problems at home) 2.Her parents may wish to share this report with her physician in case it may help with treatment planning. 3.Books such as Positive Discipline and The Defiant Child may help her parent's develop some strategies for oppositional behavior at home. 4.Her parent's should ensure that her access to electronic media(tv,computer,video games) is limited to a total of one hour a day. Are they trying to say her behavior problems are because of bad parenting?My son is not having any problems and we raise them the same way.It sounds like they don't think she has ADHD.I'm so confused.
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Post by d on Oct 6, 2005 7:52:38 GMT -5
Brenda - can't comment on the school's conclusions without scores - specific test names, standard scores including all the subtests. Did the school give them to you in a report?
I don't know how comfortable you feel posting them if you have them. If you are comfortable doing that, you can post them here as well as schwablearning.org's message board (usually some pretty good interpretations if people are around).
I'd be touchy about some of the school's comments - that is my nature. I am not thick-skinned particularly when it comes to my kids. Don't let the school doubt yourself - you are a good mother. Cracks me up that they can suggest what you should do at home - what are their suggestions for what they should be doing themselves for her at school?
Also, what were the specific reasons you asked for the eval? What school areas is Steph having trouble with?
I agree that there is something that needs to be better understood about the WISC and her achievement scores. At face value, if S is working that much beyond her potential, she deserves lots of praise and is exhausted. Or, they are not interpreting her WISC right, the WISC may not be the best test for her, etc.
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 6, 2005 7:53:38 GMT -5
Who did the evaluation, the school or a Private Neuropsychologist? It sounds like they are blaming the parents and we know that is not true. If this evaluation was done by the school, write to them and tell them that you do not agree with the evaluation (you don't have to give a reason), and that you are requesting an Independent Evaluation (an IEE) with a Private Neuropyschologist. If you can post the results - individual items, I will ask my friend Sharon F to see what she thinks. Brenda, you have to get up to speed with Special Ed laws, because it would seem that your school is going to try not to give Steph the services she needs. Read up info at: www.wrightslaw.comwww.reedmartin.com/www.listen-up.org/rights/rights.htm#compwww.schwablearning.org/message_boards/index.asp?r=281&pg=1&sortBy=dDate#q1
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Post by d on Oct 6, 2005 8:14:02 GMT -5
Thanks Mayleng - great advice. I aspire to your clarity. ;D
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 6, 2005 8:29:58 GMT -5
d, you are too funny. I am just a very direct kind of gal (gets me in trouble a lot of times).
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Post by Brenda on Oct 6, 2005 8:31:48 GMT -5
Thanks guys.The school psychologist did the eval.Last years teacher requested the eval because she was really having a hard time.This year she is doing better but still having a difficult time with math(word problems,time,money). It makes me wonder if last year was bad because of the teacher.It was only her 2nd year teaching. This years teacher has already started giving her extra help.A teachers aide comes in and helps her and a few other students for a couple of hours a day.I've talked to her teacher and she agrees that Steph needs the extra help in some areas.I wanted her to have an IEP because next years teacher might not try to help her like this one is. Here are the complete results. WISC-IV Verbal Comprehension Similarties 8 Vocabulary 7 Comprehension 8 Working Memory Digit Span 8 Letter-Number Sequencing 6 Perceptual Reasoning Block Design 7 Picture Concepts 10 Matrix Reasoning 8 Processing Speed Coding 8 Symbol Search 7 Composite Score/Percentile Rank/Description Verbal Comprension 87/ 19% /low average Perceptual Reasoning 90/25%/Average Working Memory 83/13%/Low Average Processing Speed 85/16%/Low Average Full Scale IQ 83/13%/Low Average Developmental Test of Visual- Motor Intergration Standard Score:90 percentile: 25 %Description:Below Average Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test 3rd Ed. Standard Score:90 Percentile 25% Description:Average WJ-III Standard Score/Grade Equivalent/Description Letter-Word Identification 107/2.5/Average Reading Fluency 104/2.4/Average Passage Comprension 98/1.9/Average BROAD READING 105/2.3/Average Calculation 104/2.2/Average Math Fluency 98/1.9/Average Applied Problems 88/1.1/Low Average BROAD MATH 95/1.7/Average Writing Fluency 115/3.3/High Average Writing Samples 107/2.2/Average WRITTEN EXPRESSION 115/2.9/High Average By the way,she's in the second grade.Thanks alot for the help.
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 6, 2005 8:53:31 GMT -5
Brenda, hang in there. When Sharon has time, she will checkin.
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Post by d on Oct 6, 2005 9:01:28 GMT -5
Weird that the WISC composite score %ile ranks range from 13 (working memory)-25 (perceptual) but the FSIQ %ile is 13%. I know that the working memory is now a factor in the FSIQ but seems like in this case it is heavily weighted. Don't know if there's anything to that - just seems numerically strange.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 6, 2005 9:05:48 GMT -5
Brenda--
They are probably correct that your dd does not qualify for SpEd based on their criteria, but I strongly disagree with their claim that she does not NEED specialized instruction.
Your daughter's weak areas don't easily fall in any of IDEA's 13-categories for eligibility. That's why they say she doesn't qualify. How are her classroom grades?
Her weak areas, as best I can tell, are sequencing, visual processing, working memory, processing speed, and application of learned knowledge. Her fundamental skills are fairly strong but her ability to apply those skills, especially when doing multi-step or complex applications, is much weaker. Impulsivity appears to be somewhat of an issue based on what you say, but that doesn't show up in the WJ as carelessness or rushing.
I would guess that she is a very concrete learner who needs to see it, touch it, do it and have a lot more repetition and exposure to learn it. She may need someone to help her break down the multi-step or complex assignments into smaller bites.
If you remove Working Memory and Processing Speed from her WISC, her WISC and PPVT are pretty much the same. That's important. That indicates to me that she has a problem with working memory and with processing speed. ADHD often lowers a person's working memory and/or ADHD. Or--it may make it *appear* like she has trouble with attention and concentration but her real problems are with working memory and/or processing speed. That may be why the meds aren't working as well as you'd like. Stims don't really change a person's working memory or processing speed.
It may be that she doesn't have ADHD. Instead, she may not have much "room" in her brain to temporarily hold one concept while using another. That may look like ADHD but would really be a "memory storage space" problem. It may also be that she can only tackle one step at a time. If she tries to handle more complex thinking, her brain gets overwhelmed. That's processing speed. And if she has trouble with sequencing (knowing what to do in what order) and has to think about the sequencing each step of the way, that will slow her processing speed. In essence, she may have executive function problems in addition to ADHD or instead of ADHD.
Executive function difficulties can cause HUGE problems for kids in school. But there are no IDEA categories for IEPs for Exec Function. That may be why the school says they don't have to provide additional services for her.
Most schools compare IQ to achievement to look for LDs. If IQ is significantly higher than achievement, educators believe that constitutes a learning disability. If a child's achievement is higher, they pat the parent on the hand, tell them their child is a "slow learner" and tell the parent that the school is doing such a fabulous job that the child is already exceeding their innate ability so they don't qualify for SpEd. That's garbage, but that's the way the law is usually interpreted.
Both of my kids have incredibly large REVERSE discrepancies using the WISC. Getting services was a monumental challenge because neither child fit the educrats' stereotype of a child with an LD or a child who qualifies under IDEA. One eventually qualfied as Specific Learning Disabled when we used the UNIT IQ test rather than the WISC--and his FS IQ shot up 30-points. My other child is classified as Speech-Language Impaired but should be OHI. It's a huge fight.
Were your dd's VMI subtests low across the board or were certain subtests (such as visual closure or motor integration) significantly lower? I'd like to see the discrepancies within her VMI.
The behavior problems they seem to dwell upon are, in my opinion, NOT the cause of her learning problems. Just the reverse. Her learning problems are probably creating immense frustration. That frustration and sense of inadequacy in the classroom is what may be causing any behavior problems. Schools don't like to hear that. They are thinking her problems can be solved with counseling, a change in parenting style and limiting TV time.
My humble opinion is that specialized instruction, accoms, mods and goals are necessary to offset her difficulties with working memory, processing speed, managing complex or multi-step tasks, and any visual processing issues. Your best hope may be to keep the ADHD diagnosis (even if it is executive function disorder) and push for an IEP as Other Health Impaired--claiming ADHD is impacting her alertness.
I would continue private counseling for two reasons: your daughter's own emotional well-being and to show the school that behavior issues are not the cause of your daughter's learning struggles.
I hope this is helpful. I wish the road were easier for you!
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 6, 2005 9:19:02 GMT -5
Brenda, adding to what Sharon said (thanks Sharon), if you push for the IEP under Other Health Impaired (for the ADHD), you can get her an aide next year for help included in the IEP to formalize it. Also if they say she does not need an IEP etc, you should tell them that they are giving her the extra help she needs this year and you would just like to formalize it all the accomodations done in class this year.
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Post by Brenda on Oct 6, 2005 9:23:49 GMT -5
Thanks Sharon.That does help.The report did not list the subtest on the VMI.It just stated the standard score and and percentile.It also said:Stephanie obtained a VMI score in the below average range(79).This score is consistent with those she obtained on congitive testing.Her visual-motor skills on this instrument were delayed in comparison to those of typical children her age.She scored higher than appr.8 out of 100 children her age.However,Stephanie was very impulsive on this test and thus the current score may represent a low estimate of functioning. Thanks again.
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Post by Brenda on Oct 6, 2005 9:43:54 GMT -5
Another thing,Sharon.Steph receives OT for SID.Her therapist gave her a test for Visual-Motor Intergration last year.She scored below average on it too.I'm having her mail me the results to carry to the meeting Tuesday.Can you receive special ed for Visual-Motor Intergration Dysfunction?What about trying for a 504 Plan?Thanks,Brenda
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Post by Brenda on Oct 6, 2005 9:46:51 GMT -5
Brenda, adding to what Sharon said (thanks Sharon), if you push for the IEP under Other Health Impaired (for the ADHD), you can get her an aide next year for help included in the IEP to formalize it. Also if they say she does not need an IEP etc, you should tell them that they are giving her the extra help she needs this year and you would just like to formalize it all the accomodations done in class this year. Thanks Mayleng.I did talk with the psychologist before she mailed the report and she said we all would decide if she needs an IEP.If they turn her down should I ask for a 504 plan?
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Post by G on Oct 6, 2005 11:05:06 GMT -5
Brenda, Hi! Glad to see you got the results. I know you were anxiously waiting for them. I can't wait to get my dd results also. But what you wrote all seems like greek to me, so i probobly won't understand my dd results either. Hang in there, nat
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 6, 2005 12:21:51 GMT -5
Brenda, at the meeting if they still won't give her an IEP, then bring up 504. When the school psych was humming and hawing at the meeting to decide if my ds would get an IEP, I mentioned that I would want a 504 if he does not get an IEP, and that shook the psych up and she then was more agreeable to an IEP. They don't get funding for a 504 but they do for an IEP.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 7, 2005 8:30:28 GMT -5
Visual processing disorder or visual-motor integration difficulties are conspicuously absent from IDEA. The language of IDEA covers such difficulties in a general sense, but the 13-categories for IEPs do not. Schools use the categories to determine eligibility and don't rely on the nuances of the legal language. So schools usually say they don't have to provide services to a child with visual-motor integration problems.
In fact, my daughter's middle school told me as much. Her visual closure on three different VMI assessments was nonscorable, meaning she got none correct. The SpEd Director told me that was not a problem because students don't use visual closure or visual processing in school. Dumbfounded, I (sarcastically) asked the SpEd Director if that means my daughter doesn't have to take and pass geometry. (A passing grade in Geometry is required to get a high school diploma in this state.) The SpEd director was silent for awhile, then said, "IDEA doesn't require schools to address visual processing problems."
I asked what could be done to help my daughter with extremely weak 2d visual processing. The SpEd director looked me straight in the eye and said she had no idea. I think she was being honest. They can't "fix" my dd's visual cortex by putting her in Resource or giving her extra time. I don't know how she'll do in Geometry next year.
We paid privately for vision therapy which helped dd's "wiggly" letters and "moving" words and focus time. But it did very little to help with visual closure and dd's ability to use graph paper without getting nauseous, and her ability to read maps and charts. She has incredible 3d processing ability and 3d acuity. But her 2d processing (deriving meaning from graphs, charts or visual images on paper) is almost nonexistant. I have accepted the fact that schools cannot really help her with the 2d visual processing issues.
She uses unifix cubes rather than graph paper when possible. But I have searched long and hard for ways to write her IEP (or a 504) to assist with her 2d processing issues and have found basically nothing.
Not surprising that your dd has visual integration problems and SID. It seems that, when one of the senses is not functioning well, the other senses go into overdrive to try to compensate. My dd's sensory issues involve sensitivity to light and mushy food. She does homework/reads in near darkness and has a strong gag reflex if food is mushy. As an infant, she wouldn't even eat baby food from a jar, so she truly was born this way.
Try to get an IEP for what the school can address. BrainGym or other OT methods may help with visual-motor integration but may not. It's worth a try.
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Post by Brenda on Oct 13, 2005 7:44:48 GMT -5
I just wanted to give a quick update.I was so lost during the meeting.They said that since her Achievement scores are higher than her IQ scores that she is learning.Since she made B's and C's on her report card she does not qualify for special ed.Her teacher and I told them how she is really struggling with math and they said it's normal for ADHD kids to have a hard time with math.The special ed teacher said her students don't made B's and C's and I wouldn't want her taken from her regular class and learning below her grade level.Her teacher said that she's not disrupting the class but she's disrupting her own learning.She needs redirecting alot.Doesn't that mean she needs special ed? The psych did mention 504.Her teacher said she is already making accomodations for her in the classroom so a 504 is not needed.She has Steph sitting in the front and has someone working with her one on one sometimes.The psych said we could make it "legal" and put a 504 in place but she didn't see any reason too.Should I make it legal?They said if her grades start dropping we could have another meeting.I'm having to help her study about 2 hours a day and on the weekends.I think that's too much for 2nd grade.She should be learning more in class.Sometimes she doesn't even know how to do her homework.
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Post by d on Oct 13, 2005 8:19:56 GMT -5
Brenda, it is quite normal for parents to feel lost in those meetings. How many people were there - probably at least 5 vs. you by yourself. That alone tips the balance scale. 1) Her teacher and I told them how she is really struggling with math and they said it's normal for ADHD kids to have a hard time with math. 2) The special ed teacher said her students don't made B's and C's and I wouldn't want her taken from her regular class and learning below her grade level. 3) Her teacher said that she's not disrupting the class but she's disrupting her own learning.She needs redirecting alot.Doesn't that mean she needs special ed?
4) The psych did mention 504.Her teacher said she is already making accomodations for her in the classroom so a 504 is not needed.She has Steph sitting in the front and has someone working with her one on one sometimes.The psych said we could make it "legal" and put a 504 in place but she didn't see any reason too.
5) I'm having to help her study about 2 hours a day and on the weekends.I think that's too much for 2nd grade.She should be learning more in class.Sometimes she doesn't even know how to do her homework.
OK - I need time to calm down. Maybe someone else can break the above down into an action plan. All I can do right now is We need stealth calm here and I am not the person for that job! 1) If it is "normal" for ADHD kids to struggle in math what are the school plans to address those ADHD kids educational needs in math? 2) So the special ed students are taught below grade level in your district? and they don't even succeed with decent grades? the special ed teacher said this with pride on behalf of your district? How stupid of her. 3) I'm pretty sure IDEA says if a student's behavior impedes other students OR THEIR OWN learning positive interventions are required. 4) @@ 5) The amount of home/private support is supposed to be considered as part of the committee decision-making process. 2 hours/day plus weekends in 2nd grade - I agree it is too much. She will not be able to sustain that mental effort without effecting her emotionally. I think you need a carefully worded objective concise letter to the school. You need a paper trail. Hope SharonF and dihicks stops by here today. Hang tight Brenda.
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 13, 2005 8:25:35 GMT -5
Brenda, legalize the 504, if not, next year you will be back at square one again and it would be worse if the next teacher does not want to accomodate. This way she will legally have to accomodate.
Is it possible for you to get Steph outside tutoring for math? I feel that some schools (most schools) aren't really good at remediating the kids' LDs. My son goes to Resource Room for Written Expression, but I find that what I taught him during the summer and at home is more effective than the Resource room teachers. Even if you manage to get her into the resource room for math, she is not going to be in a one to one situation and have to work with other kids, who, as the Sped Ed teacher said, is probably below where Steph is. That is the reality unless you can get her into an RS room that works with her at her level alone, which you could fight for.
As to needing re-directing alot, my son is that way too (got better when the meds are working better). Re-directing by the teacher is an accomodation which can be added to the 504. ADHD is definitely interfering with her learning, and the teacher is wrong when she says "she's disrupting her own learning". She is NOT disrupting her own learning, the ADHD is disrupting her learning.
Oh, it is NOT NORMAL for ADHDers to struggle with math, some do some don't. My son's strongest subject is Math and he is ADHD/Inattentive.
Let's see what Sharon has to say about this.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 13, 2005 14:39:17 GMT -5
Brenda-- d is right. The school's arguments are full of hooey regarding math/ADHD and the lower than grade level performance of SpEd kids. GRRR. From what you say, a 504 is definitely the bare minimum of what is needed. Your daughter needs a written guarantee of accommodations long term, not just what today's teacher remembers to do to help her. If you can't get an IEP, a 504 may cover some of the bases. However, I think she needs goals and a wider range of supports--only provided through an IEP. I think you have a shot at an IEP but it won't be easy. Your daughter's school is apparently wedded to the IQ/achievement discrepancy formula and doesn't truly understand the implications of ADHD and visual processing difficulties. Your options for an IEP are: OHI that impacts her alertness. If a child receives an IEP as Other Health Impaired, the child must have a diagnosed medical condition that negatively impacts his/her "strength, vitality or alertness." This can include being overly alert to unimportant stuff such as sensory stimulation (light, movement, sounds) and not alert enough/inattentive to important stuff such as understanding what the teacher is saying. Another option is an IEP as Specific Learning Disabled, using the Response to Intervention rather than IQ/achievement discrepancy. You would have to present evidence and data that her WJ scores (other than low Applied Math) are artificially high and don't reflect her true academic performance in the classroom. You will have to show them her tests, homework and other evidence that contradict the average to high average scores on her WJs. If you want her to get services, you must do something very, very difficult. You must stop helping her at home. Talk to the school first to explain your plan. Explain that for them to understand how much support she is getting at home, you will do a "before" and "after" test. Then get ready to spend a lot of money at Kinkos. For two weeks, you can help her as you have been helping her. Keep a log of everything you do. How much time it takes. What you help her with. How much support she needs. Do that every day. Make a xerox copy of each and every piece of homework she does. Note on the log which math problems you helped her with, which questions you helped her with, etc. Be very specific in your log. After two weeks, stop helping her. Make a xerox copy of each and every piece of homework that she does on her own. Note in your log every time she seems frustrated or can't finish the work. But do not help her. Hug her and encourage her. But don't help her. After the four weeks, request a meeting. Show them your log. Show them the difference in the quality of her homework with and without help. It's no guarantee. But IDEA is perceived as a "don't do anything until they fail" law. The law is not proactive. It is reactive. And if a child is doing "okay" in school,even marginally okay, many schools claim they are not obligated to implement specialized instruction. You must show them that she is not doing "okay" in school. She is being artificially kept afloat. The Lillie-Felton letter may also help you make your case. It states that outside interventions such as extensive help outside of school must be taken into consideration when determining if a child is eligible for an IEP. www.dueprocessillinois.org/LillieFelton.htmlI wish you well!
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Post by Brenda on Oct 14, 2005 10:28:19 GMT -5
Thanks d,Mayleng, and SharonF.I believe I'm going to get the 504 "legal" for now.If her grades start dropping I will push for the IEP.You guys really help me when I feel alone.I just want to help my daughter and sometimes feel like I'm failing her.I'm glad I can come here and feel better.Thanks,Brenda
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Post by VaMom on Oct 14, 2005 13:00:06 GMT -5
Brenda, You are most definitely NOT failing her. You are an excellent mom. I can't add anything to what has already been said about the people at her school, except that when I read your account I almost jumped out of my chair. Please keep a copy of your post, and keep written accounts/copies of ANY dealings you have with them. They are beyond belief.
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Post by VaMom on Oct 14, 2005 13:01:58 GMT -5
argh, just a clarification to my own post. When I said "they are beyond belief," I meant the school officials and how absolutely DENSE they appear to be... I did not mean I don't believe the things you're saying, Brenda!!!
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Post by Mayleng on Oct 14, 2005 16:06:33 GMT -5
Brenda put every communication to the school on paper. If you have a conversation, write back to "confirm" this is what was said etc. Get a paper trail going, so that when you do fight for an IEP you have "proof". Also you can still fight for an IEP under Other Health Impaired because of the ADHD if necessary, like Sharon mentioned.
You are not failing Steph at all, we know how much you guys have gone through and you have come a long way to helping her. This is going to be a marathon not a sprint. It will take time.
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