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Post by swmom on Sept 14, 2005 4:35:31 GMT -5
I don't know if we're just transitioning to middle school, a new school, a new way of doing things or keeping up with much more stuff and many more subjects BUT homework last night took 4 hours! If we could get her to focus, I'm sure it would've taken closer to an hour and a half. It was just awful. She forgot her math book so she didn't get her math done. She's got all these papers with nowhere to go. She's got projects that she doesn't know when they're due. She had a story she'd written that she'd forgotten to print out and turn in. Wound up in tears in class once she'd realized that had happened. She just cannot seem to get her ducks in a row.
I know our psychologist has told us she doesn't have ADHD. It's all anxiety but boy it sure does look like ADHD at the moment. Her psychiatrist said that the Clonidine she's on for impulsivity can affect her mental stamina. Maybe that's it but something's definitely going on.
Is this typical stuff as they enter middle school and have to manage all these new things plus higher expectations?
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Post by brookesmom on Sept 14, 2005 6:19:25 GMT -5
It sounds like you just described my dd and household exactly. My dd is dx with AD/HD (Innattentive). We just started middle school also and have been a bit overwhelmed by the pace of everything. Mine struggles greatly with focus and organizational skills. Missing books, assignments, not knowing what is due is a common thing for us. She does have an IEP to help with these things but it took some difficulty to get everyone on board with it this year. I actually posted in the Parenting section about our troubles starting out this year. Does she have an Assignment book that teachers could review for her at the end of the day to be sure she has recorded what is due?
My dd does take Concerta which has made a huge impact on dealing with her focus and impulsivity. Homework battles have decreased also because of this but they do still exist. But before meds it was a 3-4 hour battle just like you described in your post. I feel your pain and wish you and your daughter luck on making this better.
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 14, 2005 6:37:57 GMT -5
Middle School is hard. My ds ( Normal 7th grader) had a tough 1st year of middle school. Alot is placed on their shoulders and they have alot to remember. He forgot to do two of his homework last night (forgot all about them and forgot to bring the materials home, now he has to do them at study hall this morning) and he does not remember that he has an English test tomorrow and what it is all about. I found all this out at Open House last night, and asked him about it, and that is how he discovered he forgot two homework and his test. Today, he has to find out what the test is about. The middle school takes pains to color code all their subjects for the kids, give them agendas, teach the study skills etc. But my Normal guy seems to be having trouble "getting it" and he is a very organized child. Now bear in mind, this is not My ADHD/Inattentive child - who forgot his homework the day before.
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Post by swmom on Sept 14, 2005 7:35:20 GMT -5
You know, it's weird. Normally, if all these things were happening - forgeting her math book, etc. - she'd go ballistic. Now, since we've found the right amount of Zoloft to take the "edge" off her anxiety and OCD tendencies, she's like "Oh well." I'll admit that ANYTHING is better than the ballistic stuff but geez...now she's too laid back! Her dad and I were panicking last night at her lack of organization and concern. In response, she said, calmly, "You guys have turned into maniacs." It's like she's crusing at 30,000 feet.
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Post by catatonic on Sept 14, 2005 7:37:21 GMT -5
My Challenge Boy is a 6th grader this year. Overall he seems to be adjusting fairly well, but it is certainly not easy for him to be organized. In fact, he is actually flunking math at this point because he forgets to turn in his homework. He doesn't forget to do it, just forgets to turn it in!  We're actually pretty fortunate because the principal this year made sure each teacher has a class set of text books, so the kids bring their school books home and keep them there. We never have to worry about not having the necessary book. If you can get a set of textbooks for home, your life will be SOOOOO much easier! Something that has helped my son and is simple to do...I made a big sign which I keep taped to the inside of the front door. At the top it says "STOP" in big letters. Then it says "Think about each class. Do you have your homework?" The next two lines say "trumpet with music" and "lunchbox" to make sure he remembers those. I make him stand there and read it out loud each morning and it really has helped make sure Challenge Boy at least walks out the door with everything he needs. And I check his backpack every weekend. Any loose papers have to be put in the proper binders or given to me for his home folder. Garbage has to be thrown away. Weird things he's collected and is carrying around have to be removed. And yet...he'll forget he has a big test and neglect to study for it. He'll forget he's supposed to turn in an illustrated story and end up turning it in the next day for 20 points off his grade. He'll miss a class for an orthodontist appointment and forget he's supposed to make up the work he missed. He'll have a missing assignment and not know it (usually after missing a class for the orthodontist!) Projects are the worst -- he seems to have no idea how to get them done or keep track of due dates. So I can sympathize with what you're going through with your daughter. Sounds like my son. Pretty frustrating! |
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Post by swmom on Sept 14, 2005 8:10:24 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity I called another mom whose son is in dd's class to see if her son was having trouble keeping track of stuff, not knowing due dates, etc. He isn't really. Although she also said that he's had quite a lot of experience with changing classes and keeping track of things. He's also learned that if he is unsure of something, he asks. We need to teach dd to ask.
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Post by d on Sept 14, 2005 8:18:41 GMT -5
The last part of the brain to develop is the frontal lobes - the area that houses organization and I think other executive functioning stuff. Typically, this frontal lobe growth *spurt* happens in the pre-teen years and of course when it happens varies by child. This applies to all kids ADHD or not. It is normal, developmentally appropriate stuff. It also explains why some ADHD kids benefit during this time and may need a medication adjustment (downwards). So what do we as a society do? We put our kids in middle school where organziation skills are a functioning requirement BEFORE they are DEVELOPMENTALLY READY for it. Add on today's NCLB, state curriculum requirements, etc. and silly things like my dd has nine periods (8 classes) whereas I had 8 (7 classes) happen. Oh, also my dd's middle school has a lot of the "supportive" pull-outs during LUNCH time. Most if not all the 7th graders who need supportive math have it during lunch - so it's grab a sandwich in the cafeteria and eat it - all in less than 10 minutes then scurry off to a 1/2 hour of supportive math while their peers get a break. Ah, yes I can just imagine all those 7th graders who need extra math help thinking heck sign me up!!!! For the NYers in the crowd here, two centuries of ancient civilization history are condensed into the 6th grade social studies curriculum. Basically it seemed like a new civilization every two weeks. Our kids will study the same again over a leisurely span of two years (not one) in 9th and 10th grades. Although I heard a rumor they were changing the curriculums again so this may change soon. I'm very very glad for all those who had smooth middle school transitions. My dd's was *not*. To all those who haven't gone through it, do everything you can to anticipate and prepare. It took the majority of the year for her to adjust/transition. I'm glad we will only have one more transition for high school. I was also told by the RR teacher that if she made it through the 6th curriculum, 7th will be a relative breeze. (Again, why would the state ed dept not consider practical things like middle school adjustment, frontal lobe growth spurts, etc. when deciding on the degree of curriculum difficulty?) |
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Post by swmom on Sept 14, 2005 9:53:32 GMT -5
I have a question. When your child is having a tough time getting organized, remembering due dates, etc., how do you avoid becoming "the helicopter mom," always hovering, always overlooking what's going below? They have to learn to think on their own. They have to learn to get themselves out of messes and problems. My husband refuses to let go. Yes, she'll make mistakes but maybe she'll learn. He refuses to loosen the reigns. What do I do?
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Post by LurkNoMore on Sept 14, 2005 11:02:22 GMT -5
Add me to the club! C started middle school (this will be his 1st full week...they started on 9/7). Our school does team teachers for 6th grade...you have one teacher for your "core" (language arts & reading) and another subject (in C's case, Math)...for him this is with the special ed teacher(s) in the self-contained class. He is mainstreamed (it's an inclusion team) for Science & Social Studies and the other 4 periods. Our school has odd/even days (they don't tie to the date, so I don't know why they don't call them something different)...this only effects him for 2 classes...3rd per., he has gym on even days (has to remember to bring gym clothes & change into them and then back into reg clothes), odd days he has Spanish. 9th per, even days he has AIS (remedial) Math, even days band (he has to remember his instrument). Plus, with band on Friday's he will have lessons...they are a different period each week...he will be responsible for getting to his lesson (or getting it excused/making it up if he has a test )...Yikes!
We spent Saturday morning organizing his binder...every subject has a folder with the teacher's course requirements behind it. I bought self-stick tabs (hope he doesn't pick them off) to put on each folder so he can easily get to the section he needs. We go through his binder every day while he is doing homework to take out the papers he no longer needs & to put in the right places the papers he does need...My hope is that he will be able to do it himself as time goes on. The school does supply them with an agenda...I do notice that his teachers are filling (or rewriting) in some of the assignments...
Some of our teachers (too few) use schoolnotes.com and post things like homework assignments (or at least upcoming projects & tests)...
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Post by brookesmom on Sept 14, 2005 12:28:35 GMT -5
swmom I think it depends on the child. Is it a temporary organizational challenge brought on by adjusting to a new situation or is it an ongoing problem? My child needs me to be the"helicopter mom". She has extreme weaknesses in the organizational area and without teachers signing her assignment book and me reviewing it she would be totally lost. Teachers must ask frequently for her to turn in her work also. I hear you about the responsibility factor and them needing to learn. But these are goals for my child and I have to remember that our journey through this is a long distance marathon and it is going to take training, patience and consistency. But it is scary as a mom to think about how your child is going to cope when you can no longer be the helicopter mom.  |
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 14, 2005 12:40:59 GMT -5
swmom, first year in middle school is when you need to help them get organize. Letting them sink does not help. Even the school tells us parents at the Open House, we have to look at their agenda, and make sure they write down their homework, make sure it gets done. The School is opened till 10 pm at night, so that we can go back and get forgotten books, assignments etc. They tell us, 6th grade is very challenging because alot goes on mentally and physically for our kids. So if you have to be a helicopter mom, then this is the year to be it.
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Post by VaMom on Sept 14, 2005 13:21:12 GMT -5
The last part of the brain to develop is the frontal lobes - the area that houses organization and I think other executive functioning stuff. Typically, this frontal lobe growth *spurt* happens in the pre-teen years and of course when it happens varies by child. This applies to all kids ADHD or not. It is normal, developmentally appropriate stuff. It also explains why some ADHD kids benefit during this time and may need a medication adjustment (downwards). So what do we as a society do? We put our kids in middle school where organziation skills are a functioning requirement BEFORE they are DEVELOPMENTALLY READY for it. For this reason and others, many people think middle schools are a failed experiment. It is a very controversial issue in education right now. www.planandteach.com/research.htm |
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Post by brookesmom on Sept 14, 2005 15:33:37 GMT -5
That is really interesting that there are questions about whether middle school should exist. Our school is a K-8 but operates more as K-3 then 4-5 then 6-8 is called jr.high. They just changed the structure of our 4th and 5th grade classes where they rotate between 4 different teachers for their subjects. They are piloting this based on some research that shows this will help them when they get to the jr. high or middle school years adjust more easily. So far the teachers have said that it is very challenging organizationally for about 2/3 of the kids, but it has only been a few weeks. I have a 4th grader so I am interested to see how it works out.
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Post by G on Sept 14, 2005 16:56:21 GMT -5
OUr middle school is 4-7 and so far it is not going well at all. They actually move for classes at this age. My dd is failing tests already and I am sure all the "pressure' put on them to BE ORGANIZED it part of the stress. If they forget one thing they have to put their name on the board and four times in one week is a demerit and with a demerit they are not allowed to do any incentive programs.
I posted this under the "COFFEE TALK" but i do not think we are going to survive 4th grade.
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Post by catatonic on Sept 15, 2005 0:36:53 GMT -5
swmom, I agree that helicopter mom is undesirable. Despite their unique challenges, our children need to learn to function independently and responsibly..and they ARE capable of it. It's just harder for them. What I do to help my son without having to hover over him all the time is to put a structure in place. For example, he is expected to practice his instrument at the same time each evening. Homework must be completed before this, which means he has about an hour after dinner. There's an additional half hour after practicing if he needs it. That's when he does the work that he may need my help with. When he's through, he has to pack everything up and put it by the door ready for school the next day. I put a sign on the front door to remind him of the items he must take to school with him each day. I don't look at his planner every day, but I remind him to check it when he says his homework is done. I ask him to clean out his backpack each weekend and get organized for the week ahead. I use consistent consequences when he goofs up. If he fails to complete a homework assignment for whatever reason, he goes to study hall after school to make it up. If he doesn't clean out his backpack, I dump it out on the sofa and he has to deal with it before school on Monday. (Only had to do that once.) If he goes to bed without completing his chores, I wake him up and make him do them. (Only had to do that once, too. Since his job is to feed the animals, he can see the logic in not being allowed to skip it...but I've done the same thing to my 14-year-old when he's forgotten to take out the garbage.) Yes, these are fairly ruthless measures, but they seem to be the only kind that are effective in forcing him to remember and take responsibility for his own stuff. I'm not mean about it, I don't lecture or yell or nag, but I don't let him get away with much either. He still requires more help and supervision than the other kids, but he is becoming more independent all the time. Thank God. For me the bottom line is, I don't want my son to think of himself as handicapped in any way. Nor do I want him to believe he's entitled to having everyone go easy on him. I'm happy to give him whatever help and support he needs, but I expect him to function in an age-appropriate manner. Overall, I think he lives up to those expectations, although I know it is NOT easy for him to do so. But I think the most responsible thing I can do for him is to help him accept his unique challenges and find ways of coping with them. We'll see if these tactics turn out to be effective in middle school. Too soon to tell. Nat, I think your 4th grade sounds like a nightmare! 4th grade is way too young to expect children to switch classes and function like they're already in high school! If sounds completely unreasonable. I hope you can find a way to make it work.  |
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 15, 2005 7:05:24 GMT -5
Cat, for middle school, it is not so much the structure at home that is the problem for us because I am like you, I set alot of structure and consequences for both my sons and I do stress independence. They do their homework the minute they get home, while I am cooking. However, the issue with middle school for the kids is dealing with so many different teachers, remembering to write down their homework assignments and tests and remembering to bring all the items home to do the homework when they need it. Then there are alot of activities after school in the middle school ie. clubs, sports etc. After doing the homework, they forget to submit it because unlike the elementary level, the teachers don't ask them and "baby" them. My son's teacher last year kept misplacing my son's homework and longterm assignments (the longterm assignments are also a problem because they forget when the datelines are) and blaming my son for not submitting them. She found them after she has accused my son of not submitting his work and yelled at him and really panicked him (remember this is my responsible one), but when she found it was her mistake, she did not even apologize. My son bombed last year - he had her for homeroom, English Language Arts and Math - after a while he stopped trying with her because he gets blamed for everything, he ended up in homework detention at least 3 times - which he said was good because the teacher there explained things alot better than his witchy teacher, saw the Principal once (yes! she sent him & some other kids to the Principal because they supposedly missed an assignment and all they did was make the kids watch a video about responsibility after school. But I digress, the switching of classes and the short time they have to do it leads them to not copy their assignments properly etc. I am praying for a better start of 7th grade for my son, but in the first week, he has forgotten two homework and a test as I mentioned previously - thank goodness Mom caught it and he did them on time and studied for his test today. Late homework submission this year equals a Zero (no second chances). Like I said, this is my "Normal" child. I don't even want to think about the time my ADDer goes to MS in two yrs. Yikes! I also spoke to alot of my son's friends Moms, and all of them said the same thing, the 1st yr of MS all their kids had a "culture shock" and floundered initially, forgetting stuff for their homework, forgetting assignments etc. All of them A or Honors students. They recovered after the 1st term, my son did not. He went from an A/B student to a C/D student for the first time in his life. This year is a fresh start for him, and thank goodness he likes his teachers.
Wow! I didn't mean to go on about this, it must have really been weighing on my mind. Feels good to get it out though. Thanks for listening ladies/gents.
P/S remember the hormones are raging too at the same time.
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Post by swmom on Sept 15, 2005 7:49:07 GMT -5
That's interesting, mayleng, about the teacher blaming your son instead of herself when she in fact was the one at fault. My dd came home yesterday and said she got in trouble for talking when she said she didn't. She said she was watching the girl next to her talk to the girl on the other side of her. She said the teacher disciplined all three of them but then later when she found out it was just the other two, rescinded the punishment for all three. Didn't make sense. To me, it did indicate that the teacher is as confused and frustrated as the kids! What a mess! She said that she did get reprimanded for the tone of voice she was using with the other kids. Do you think I'm justified in emailing the teacher to find out more?
We're having trouble with her tone of voice at home, too. It's just so negative all the time.
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Post by catatonic on Sept 15, 2005 8:13:53 GMT -5
Ouch, Mayleng, it all sounds so horribly familiar! Was your son in my son's class last year? Isn't it difficult not to feel personal animosity towards someone who makes your child's life so miserable?
You're right about middle school...the big issues (and hardest to do anything about) are the ones taking place at school.
My son has come up with some rather interesting strategies. I can't say I'm in favor of all of them... for instance, he will NOT use his locker. He says if he does then he ends up forgetting stuff. So he carries every single thing around all day long in his backpack (his ten-ton backpack).
The first year of middle school is, I think, the hardest adjustment our kids will ever have to make. My older boys are both in high school (a freshman and a junior) and both of them found it much easier to adjust to high school than they did to middle school. LOTS of kids bomb big time at first in middle school because they're just kind of tossed in there and expected to sink or swim. My Challenge Boy still has his nose above water at this point, but it could go either way!
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Post by d on Sept 15, 2005 9:08:58 GMT -5
I've raised my kids with the following:
Both kids are held to the same level of accountability and expectations, ADHD or not.
ADHD may be an explanation, but is not an excuse.
Make sure they understand action/consequence is not just a parent "discipline" thing, it's a life thing.
To know their own strenghts and weaknesses and leverage them appropriately. That includes how to recognize and compensate, work around or overcome weakness. For strengths, the opportunity to develop them, channel them responsibly, use them across different areas of their lives, etc.
Life is not fair and sometimes people stink for whatever reason - that will never change. They shouldn't dwell on those - I tell them their attitude should be "oh well", "get over it" and move on. Stinky people include mean people, teachers who don't "get it", etc.
I need to prepare my kids so that they can be fully functioning, self-aware, responsible, self-assured, societally conscious HAPPY adults who can fend for themselves in the world.
It is entirely my job to make sure that my kids get whatever "tools" they may need along the way. It would be MY FAULT if I did not make sure my executive functioning-challenged middle school ADHDer was getting the school/home support/help she needs so that SHE.... can work towards successful academic independence. Over the years that's been varying degress of the following - close home/school communication, me "hovering" and very specific private or school special support. To tell her to just do it when she is deficient in an area without showing her how is unreasonable and unfair.
That was one big philosophical meaning of life soap box lecture wasn't it? ;D So, Cat and Mayleng, I'm with both of you. And notab, your dd's school falls in my "stinky people" category.
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 15, 2005 11:32:42 GMT -5
We're having trouble with her tone of voice at home, too. It's just so negative all the time. Ah! Hormones. My son has been like a raging volcano since he turned 12. His tone of voice always gets him into trouble with me. It got so bad, I had to step back and tell Dad to handle him and deal with him (schoolwork, housework EVERYTHING). Because I was afraid of what I would do to him. He has been trying very hard to keep his emotions undercontrol the last couple of weeks and we have been getting along. You are going to have to help your daughter with the "tone" issue, it is not acceptable and find a way for her to release her "frustrations" and "anger". I swear my son's mood got alot better when he got into the Modified Volleyball Team (one of only 2 seventh graders to make the Team, the rest were 8th graders, big achievement here, and does wonders for his self-esteem). They practice every day and have games after practice every other day. There goes my gas bill. But the exercise really releases alot of the "aggression" so it is not directed at MOM. |
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 15, 2005 11:41:34 GMT -5
Ouch, Mayleng, it all sounds so horribly familiar! Was your son in my son's class last year? Isn't it difficult not to feel personal animosity towards someone who makes your child's life so miserable? It just goes to show, what great impact a teacher has on a kid (ADHD or otherwise) - it can be negative or truly positive. My son works well for teachers who encourage him, he will work hard for these type of teachers just to please them and make them proud of him. Unfortunately, like d said, there are "stinky people" out there, and the kids have to learn to deal with them. Surprisingly, my ADDer handles it better when dealing with stinky people - I guess because he had experienced these types of teachers at an earlier age ie. Kindergarten and has learnt to shrug it off. My older son has always had teachers who were nice to him and he responded, except for one music teacher who made his life hell in 5th grade. But I fixed that problem and talked to that teacher who actually scares all the kids in the school. Her son is ADHD too and she treats my ADDer much better ;D But it is harder to "talk" to the teachers in the MS. That is what my son did too. He put everything into his binder - has the biggest binder in school. The teachers commented to me that they were afraid he would hurt his back carrying the load. But he would not stop because he was so afraid he would forget something. So how in the world can the teacher say he forgets to hand in assignments and homework when this child carried everything with him from class to class. This is why he gave up trying. I am hoping 7th will go smoothly, at least he has a positive outlook and is trying. I hope Challenge Boy continues to keep his nose/head above water and have a successful year. |
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 15, 2005 11:45:37 GMT -5
d, I agree with you and have been trying to teach the boys that they have to learn to deal with all kinds of people, stinky or otherwise. But I guess, ds felt really helpless when the teacher accuses him of something and he cannot defend himself and she refuses to accept blame when it was proven that it was her fault. He did not want me to step in for fear it would make things worse. I stepped in towards the end of the term, which was too late anyway and she did not respond to my letters and suggestion that she acknowlege receipt of all his assignments, which I wanted to attach a form with every one of his assignments. Since it was already June, I figured we would write off the year and start fresh this year. So I let it go. I am definitely requesting younger Ds does not get her when he goes to MS. Fireworks would start if that happens.
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Post by d on Sept 15, 2005 19:09:19 GMT -5
But I guess, ds felt really helpless when the teacher accuses him of something and he cannot defend himself and she refuses to accept blame when it was proven that it was her fault. I am definitely requesting younger Ds does not get her when he goes to MS. Fireworks would start if that happens. Yup - stinky people. That teacher was wrong. While I tell my kids to respect their teachers and obey school rules even in stinky situations, that doesn't include me justifying a stinky teacher's inexcusable behavior. Glad ds is starting this year fresh with a good attitude. And while I don't wish that teacher on your younger, the fireworks would be interesting - I'd want a popcorn and a soda to watch you in action. ;D |
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 15, 2005 21:12:26 GMT -5
d, I hope it never comes to that because while I walk softly and do carry a big stick and use restrain ALOT, the school or teacher may never recover from the fireworks. My hubby can attest to how explosive I can get when I let lose. ;D
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Post by Beverly on Sept 17, 2005 14:53:47 GMT -5
Our district has a K-4 Elementary, 5-6 Upper Elementary, 7-8 Middle Schhol set up. There are 6 K-4 schools that feed into only 1 Upper Elementary and there is also only 1 Middle School. The Upper Elementary is set up as a Middle School but with only 4 teachers on a team and no students going off team, where in the Middle School they do go off team if they are in Honors Math or Science. There are more teachers then teams as well. My dd had no problem adjusting right away in 5th grade but my ds (ADHD to the max) is in 8th grade and still has no clue!! I have tried to work on organizational skills to no avail. Add to this the normal teen angst and drama and it's a recipe for disaster.
I went to Catholic School so I did a K-8 school and I think it's a great set up. We still has recess in 8th grade, or we could volunteer to help the early elementary teachers by correcting papers. All of the older stundets were assigned some type of responsibility for the younger grades even if it was just walking them to class after recess. We did change classes beginning in 5th grade but did not have lockers. I think we were in a more protected "bubble" than kids are in a middle school.
I have serious reservations about how my son is going to be able to handle high school. He does not have a 504 but my neighbor, a school psychologist, suggested I should get it in now to carry it onto high school. Her biggest suggestion was to make study hall his last period of the day so that he can have time to organize instead of having to run from class to locker to bus. She also made several other suggestions but that one would have big impact on his at least having time to organize himself.
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