Where should my child be starting 4th grade?

[kc4braves]

I have expressed concerns on another thread about my 9 yr old ADHD son's disorganization and poor writing skills. Briefly ..I stated that he doesn't keep basic organization in his room at home..i.e...shirts in shirt drawer, socks and underwear in correct drawer, etc. I have also noticed that this dis-organization carries over to school. 4th graders are expected to be much more organized and self-sufficient and this concerns me. He has a binder with 5 subject tabs but i still find math under science and so forth. Seldom are papers dated and his writing is terrible. I think worse than usual because he has more to write. He doesn't write down the words he is defining, often starts writing in the middle of the page or the middle of a line and runs everything together. We are working with him to number things, skip lines, underline answers, etc. to help with his ability to reuse these papers for studying. He doesn't seem to be getting it yet, though. I found website that was listing things that kids should know and be able to do when starting 4th grade and things they should know at the end. Here is a list of things in one category they said he should be able to do already:

Writing and Verbal Communication

Write in cursive script (longhand) instead of printing, when requested
Write in paragraph form, using transitions
Use correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar (e.g. verb tenses must agree in sentences)
Understand the writing process: pre-write, outline, draft, revise, edit, and polish
Complete assignments in a variety of writing styles, including informative, creative, and persuasive
Follow written instructions independently
Listen actively to a speaker in the classroom, whether that is the teacher or a fellow student
Answer questions in complete sentences (for example, "I like to play on the monkey bars more than playing kickball because I like to climb," as opposed to "Because I like to climb," or simply "Because.")

What do you think about this list? My child cannot do most of this. Part of it is because his school has not pushed in these areas yet but I wonder how much he just hasn't gotten. Are your 4th graders able to do these things? I'm just hoping for complete sentences with punctuation at this point and maybe a paragraph here and there. Any ideas would be appreciated.

KAthy

[willoweezie]

Kathy,

my dd is going into 3rd grade, but honestly, I dont' see her picking up all of those skills in one short year! She cannot write in cursive at all, write in paragraph form, or even write in complete sentences consistently. I dunno, she did a lot of 3rd grade work last year b.c. she was in a mixed 2/3 classroom, but I don't think they've even approached alot of those skills yet, even with the true 3rd graders. I personally don't think she will be at that skill level in a year. She has a lot of the same problems you described of your son, the disorganization, starting in the middle of a line, not skipping lines, things running together etc. hmmm... sounds a little ambitious to me.

[pattislp]

The tall order...mission organization...

I liken being ADD to being in a fog... I am ADD and I have learned to be organized but not without lots of trials and errors. It takes awhile for an ADDer to figure out the "TEMPLATE" for success. They will spend a ton of time spinning their wheels getting things done by trial and error but someone needs to come in and get the fog cleared by showing them the way out of the fog. My husband is impulsive but he is also very organized...and he has helped me over the years. He puts up with my piles of paper in my office... peace* because he knows I get to a point where I can't take it anymore and I start my organizational dejunking about every 2 months or so when IT BECOMES A PROBLEM FOR ME. I won't do it if he bugs me about it...I will only do it when I can't stand it. Does that make sense??

Taking meds is like wearing a set of eyeglasses which help you focus on things that are important...but the ADDer DOESN'T have the TEMPLATE down of organization because they they really don't understand the HOW to in regards to how in the heck... "normal" people do things in an orderly fashion and NOT the pile and shove it in a corner which is what the ADDer has done for years to get by .

What I would do is SOCRATIC Questioning. It takes a ton of time...but it gets through to the ADDer because they are actively participating in the process. I would start with what bugs him about not being organized, take a paper with a line down the middle what bugs him and on the other side...and ways he thinks he can solve the problem...and ways you can help him get there...

This may be part of the problem is that perhaps people think he really "GETS" it when in reality he hasn't a clue... and this simple yet effective organizational activity will tell what he gets and what he doesn't.

Then I would question him and respond to his responses one item at a time on his list to make sure he understands. Also can start with the biggest thing that bugs him about being disorganized and then through his input and your modeling...you can help him create ways that will work to get organized.

What my daughter with ADD did was have a homework folder and on one side the folder said...homework to do and the other said finished homework. She shoved her homework to do until she got home and did her homework moving the finshed homework to the other side that said finished homework.

another thing that helps is having a school calendar or agenda...where he can list his assignments and check them off when he does them. This will have to be modeled and kept after every day until it is a habit.

Also...another great tool to give you the template for teaching him essential organizational skills is a book called....Skills for school success by Anita Archer & Mary Gleason...by Curriculum Associates...

Hope this helps!!

[TexasMom]

My oldest daughter is just starting 4th grade. She can do all the things listed. However, she is not ADHD or LD and is a very diligent student. Unfortunately, I can tell you that my 7th grade son STILL cannot do all the things on the list. In fact, he probably couldn't do half of them. He has ADD and CAPD/dyslexia. It is quite sad and quite frustrating for all of us but especially him.

[Mayleng]

A workbook I have been working with my son this summer is Writing Skills by Diana Hanbury King. It is a very very good book. Starts with what is a noun, verb, pronoun to what is a sentence, the type of sentences, to basic paragraphs (topic, topic sentences, supporting sentences, concluding sentence), types of paragraphs to essay. It goes step by step and is easy to teach. Teaches kids to make lists and using the list to make paragraphs. Simplified the process so the kids don't feel so overwhelm. I highly recommend this book. This book teaches the kids how to organize their thoughts enough to write a paragraphs. I got the book for Grade 2-4 . (they have books that goes up to grades 5 to 12 too) Might be appropriate for your kids. We work on one chapter a day.

Here's the link:

www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/subject.asp?subject=11S

(click) Writing Skills 2nd Edition (grades 2 - 12)

I got the Writing Skills Book A for $12.00

Well worth the money.

[cosmos61]

mayleng said:

to basic paragraphs (topic, topic sentences, supporting sentences, concluding sentence),

My kiddo is starting 3rd this year and can do this. In second grade, they practiced doing this on a daily basis for the FCAT. We do experience problems being able to get a paragraph written in the allotted amount of time though. (He has ADD and alot of problems putting his thoughts on paper.)

[cosmos61]

mayleng said:

Here's the link:

www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/subject.asp?subject=11S

(click) Writing Skills 2nd Edition (grades 2 - 12)

I got the Writing Skills Book A for $12.00

Well worth the money.

Thanks for the tip Mayleng! How much resistance do you get in working on this with your kiddo? It looks good but I don't know if I could get my kiddo to cooperate with me enough to work on it. He definately has written expression problems that I'm sure going to cause more and more problems in school as the years go by.

[kc4braves]

Thanks for all the replies. I will have to take sometime to read them through and thein on my next move. If I could get him to even realize that he is disorganized, that would be a major step. There is so much he just doesn't get yet. I asked how he planned to study for tests with such poor notes and he told me he didn't plan to study that he didn't need to. OK. We'll see about that. I know he does not know how to study and I don't mind teaching him. I was a good student and worked hard from about 4th grade on. My school work was neat and organized AND I studied alot. He may not be the brightest kid in the class but I know he is smart and a little studying can go along ways....if he will make the effort.

I'm going to look at the reccomended reading, etc. I'm not sure that i could add any more work to his schedule without rebellion. He feels that doing his homework is more than enough even though he spends only about 30 mins doing the work. Hmmmmm....

for the ideas.

Kathy

[Mayleng]

amcfanny said:

mayleng said:

Here's the link:

www.epsbooks.com/dynamic/catalog/subject.asp?subject=11S

(click) Writing Skills 2nd Edition (grades 2 - 12)

I got the Writing Skills Book A for $12.00

Well worth the money.

Thanks for the tip Mayleng! How much resistance do you get in working on this with your kiddo? It looks good but I don't know if I could get my kiddo to cooperate with me enough to work on it. He definately has written expression problems that I'm sure going to cause more and more problems in school as the years go by.

My son does OK with working on one chapter a day - about 30 mins. It is very easy and works for us. I like the way it is done step by step and it really helps them organize their "thoughts". With practice, I am hoping it will prepare him for the harder work from 4th grade onwards. I told my son, if he gave me any problems, I would send him to summer school which will last 3 hours instead of 30 minutes. He figured it was easier to work with mom ;D
Or you could tell your son, he either works 30 mins with you or 1 hour a day with a tutor for 5 days a week (Lie!)

[kc4braves]

I have actually considered the tutor idea. lol I could tutor someone else's child if they would tutor mine.

Kathy

[TexasMom]

kc4braves,

I have the same problem you have about your son not even realizing he is disorganized. Ever since kindergarten he has been told to stop rushing but he doesn't think he is rushing, he thinks he just knows the stuff and is doing it.

Teachers tell him to look over his answers so that he can do better but he thinks he did it right the first time and so he doesn't see the need to review it. He also doesn't think he needs to study because he thinks he knows it.

Unfortunately, he is sorely mistaken all all of those points.

What to do?!

[kc4braves]

Sounds just like my son. We had to TEACH him how to check his work. So I know he KNOWS how, but...I don't think he does it. His teacher has told him to check his work and she says he scans the page and says.."it's right". I'm trying to TEACH him to be organized with his notes, etc. and how to study. These things came naturally for me, even though, I'm not THAT organized in all areas. Seems I have to go over it and over it. Sometimes, he gets it after we review and review, sometimes not. He still writes in the middle of the page or on the back or in the heading area. If i ask him,"Where should the number go?", he will answer, "To the left of the red line."...but do you think he put the numbers there? NO!!! So I repeat it and repeat it and repeat it.

Good luck with your child.

KAthy

[jmb2]

Kc4braves,

You said your son was ADD. Could he also be dyslexic in writing? He sounds like my son with his writing issues. Does he have a 504 or IEP? If his difficulties are severe enough, he should qualify under Other Health Impaired from the ADD diagnoses. and get assistance during the day for this.

Good luck. I know it is frustrating. However, you are not alone.

jmb2

[jmb2]

Kc4braves,

You said your son was ADD. Could he also be dyslexic in writing? He sounds like my son with his writing issues. Does he have a 504 or IEP? If his difficulties are severe enough, he should qualify under Other Health Impaired from the ADD diagnoses. and get assistance during the day for this.

Good luck. I know it is frustrating. However, you are not alone.

jmb2

[kc4braves]

Thanks for your replies. He doesn't have a 504...yet. I am working on it but the huricane kinda halted the work. People are focused on that, as they should be, as we have full shelters here, etc. I'm planning to call again today...then put it all in wiriting as was suggested, if need be.

Things have been ok with ds but last night just reinforced to me that something needs to change. He brought home his papers for last week. They were mostly very good. The science test we studied for last week went very well with him making 102 on it. It was mostly matching and fill in the blank so not alot of writing was required. He made 100 on spelling and 94 on vocab. Then there were the "mad minutes" as we call them or timed addition tests. they are supposed to get 30 completed in 1.5 mins. He made a 73 and she wrote "D" on it really big and "please review and sign". She also sent home 200 problems for him to practice with instructions that he needs to get 20 in a min. That just did me in. I started typing frantically to the teacher. I have found better to communicate this way and save on the computer. Anyway....I thought she and I were on the same page but.....I guess not. I'm so tired of timed math tests and he PASSED this one. No..I do not like 'D"'s but...that is only the 3rd one he has ever passed and we have been making him take these since 1st grade ( he is now in 4th). I just reinterated to her that we had discussed accomodations and that i needed her to help me with this, etc. Told her again that i am currently working with the counselor and Special Ed Director on this.

Then we started to study for the Social Studies test. That is when it fell apart for me. lol I looked at his notes, which I could barely read, and asked where his book was. He said teacher said he only needed his notes. Well that is great...if they were organized and legible. There were about 10 pages of notes in no particular order. He had no idea for sure what was on the test..so we started trying to learn them all. There was a map of the US with about half the states colored. He wasn't sure if he needed to know thos or not. There were questions they had done in class, i guess, that were incorrectly answered but with no book, couldn't be sure of the correct answers. He has 2 pages of Mississippi Facts that he had copied, I thought, from the board that was barely legible at all. HAd to rely on my knowldege of the state to try to guess what much of it said. He had spelled how things sounded to him on most of the page. I asked if he copied it and he said she read it to them. There was also a MS map to label with rivers, towns, etc. He knew a few major landmarks but that was it. Finally, I saw the neighbor was home. Her daughter is in his class. I asked the child if she could tell me what he needed to know. Come to find out, the teacher had gone over everything and told them exactly waht to study. My child had none of it marked or anything. This child tried to help me make out what his notes said. She also told me that the MS FActs had been on an overhead beamed up on the wall to be copied and that the teacher had told them they could borrow the transparency later if they didn't get everything. I was so happy to know that my son didn't have to label the whole map or know the sq miles in the state or label the whole US map...lol...but I wanted to strangle him. I asked him about all this. I guess he feels rushed when trying to copy stuff. Some words I never deciphered. He had written the word "Major" as "mager" over and over. He had forgotten that the teacher said he could use the overhead sheet, especially since he felt he was done. He has no idea why he didn't remember what the teacher said would be on the test or why he didn't mark any of that.

This is all soooo frustrating to me. I am used to much more teacher input and more than one days notice for tests, but I guess they are supposed to be more responsible this year. I agree they should but....I am available to help him and don't like feeling that I can't because I lack info. I guess the thing that bothered me the most, though, is that the girl next door makes straight "A"s and didn't even bring her Social Studies home to study. Her mom said she hasn't studied anything all year. I'm hoping she is just way above average. I was so proud of his Science test but we did study for it about an hour the night before. ( Had it been more organized would have been less time.)

Is it wrong for me to want some help in getting things organized for him? Is it too much to ask the teacher for advanced notice of a test and what material should be studied or reveiwed? I asked he to take a look at the notes we had to study from. Am I over reacting to the timed math tests? I am about to bring all this up with the Special Ed. Director, who we have already determined is not very good at what she does. We have to go back to Psych doc in a week or so and Ihope to get him on board with the OT eval issue. I know he is probably not the one to order it but if he can reccomend it, I think it will be easier to get our primary Care Manager to request it. I think our insurance will cover it .

Sorry to write an epic...but...just need to know if I'm being reasonable or just over concerned. I told my mom about how the night had gone and she said she never had these kinds of issues with me or my brother. I guess that was her way of saying maybe there is more to this.

Anyway, thanks.

KAthy

[Mayleng]

Kathy, the only way to get him those accomodations is to get an IEP. This way it can be written down that he will not be "marked" on timed math as long as he knows the concept, it should not be how fast he can get the answer but that he does know the answer given time. Also accomodations can be made for the teacher to give him a copy of the overhead instead of making him write it, notes to be given to him. The teacher to check to make sure that he has everything and make sure he understands what he needs to learn for the tests. Because he has organization and writting issues, these are unlikely to go away, it is what ADHD is all about. These kids need accomodations to help with their organization.

So no, you are not unreasonable, and you really need to pursue this.

[kc4braves]

Ok. I called the Special Ed. Director back. She says that she has the info. that his teacher last year filled out and his grades showing that he did well, etc. She said there is a partially filled out accomodations check list that I guess the teacher started on. She told me that all I have left to do is to get together with the teacher and decide which accomodations are appropriate and get them on the worksheet. This sounds way too easy. Does she know what she is doing or is there more to it than that? I know if we do not agree on what is needed that there may be problems. If we do not agree, who should be the next person to go to re: 504? I'm not sure this teacher has ever done a 504...and I surely have not. Seems like the blind leading the blind to me. Could this possibly work to my advantage?

Thanks for any insights.

Kathy

[TexasMom]

Oh how I feel for you!!!

We go through this almost every night!!!

I wish I had a great answer for you. I do have one suggestion. In our son's IEP it says that he is supposed to take notes during class when it is expected and then once he shows them to his teacher he gets a copy of HER notes. That way they are written clearly and accurately.

[kc4braves]

I'm still not sure if the school knows what they are doing. The teachere called today to say that the Sp. Ed. Director had called today and told her to call me and make an appt. She was under the understanding that this was not a formal 504 but some guidelines for her to go by. We talked about how I had specified that it be a legal 504, etc. and she is now concerned that they don't know what they are doing at the school. lol

Of course, then she wanted to know why I'm so concerend. She seems to be a very nice person and a structured teacher but she doesn't really get it. She says she hasn't been giving ds any special accomdations. She has graded all the class that way. Well, I told her that was great and fine but that she is actually providing accomdations for everyone. lol I explained that we are military and will be moving again. ( Hubby is retiring but we will probably move at least two more times.) I told her that we have lived other places and know that everyone does not do things the way she does and that we want ds prepared for whatever. I left it that, at the very least, i wanted a basic 504 in place and done correctly. She was going to investigate more.

My son got his progress report today and has 4 A's and 1B and a C. His % correct for AR is too low but he has alot of points. I refuse to get too upset about that. The C is in math and is an 84. I think the timed math tests are the cause of that. So far the year has been easy but they still are not writing much or using cursive or doing multiplication...all problems for ds. His poor organization skills and awful writing make things harder than they have to be. She insists that he is doing well and is probably the top student of her "average" group...not behind and not advanced. I just wonder what that should say to me....or to the school.

Anyway, anymore comments on the 504 process would be appreciated. Thanks for your support. I don't have much here.

KAthy

[Mayleng]

Kathy, it looks like your school does not either want you to have a 504 or they don't know how to get one done. If you could, you should try joining the chats on Advocacy at www.net-haven.net/storefront/directory/solutions4kids.html when Gina is hosting. She would know how the school should get the balling rolling on getting a 504 (she was a school psych before). She is hosts on Sunday nights.

[kc4braves]

Thanks so much for the website. I have already registered. frontclap*

I told one of my friends who has an education degree and a child with a 504 how things were being handled. She seemed to think we might get the 504 ok the way they are going about it but that if it is done incorrectly or not justified appropriately that the next school may challange it. Do you have any thoughts on this? I hate being new at things. lol I'd much rather be giving advise.

,
Kathy

It's Friday!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mayleng]

It is always possible for another school to challenge the 504, but you need to get one first before you cross that bridge.

Here's are links to some info about 504 versus IEP.

www.hopkins.k12.mn.us/pages/North/Hopkins_SS/idea504.htm

www.ldonline.org/ld_indepth/legal_legislative/update_504_2001.html

You could also call your local Office of Civil Rights, and ask them the procedure in obtaining a 504 for an ADHD child.

[kc4braves]

Thanks, Mayleng, for the Net Haven link. I found that to be very interesting helpful last night when I joined the chat. They gave me some good 504 information. Howver, the waters got muddied again when they suggested that I should have my son evaluated again, including OT, BEFORE I try to get a 504. I'm not sure we will follow this advice mainly because of the time involved and the fight I'd probably have on my hands with us trying to move soon. ( The school does not know our plans to move soon just that we are military and will at some point.) We are considering trying to get the OT eval on our own and going ahead and getting the 504 in place while we can. After we move, will the 504 hinder us in getting more help down the road if he needs it? Just looking for another opinion and trying to work under the situation in which we currently find ourselves.

Thanks,
Kathy

[Mayleng]

No, the 504 should not hinder you in any way, if you find that the 504 is not enough (which by the way is renewed yearly, then go for an IEP if needed). It is probably a good idea to get an outside OT eval if you can afford it.

[kc4braves]

Thanks . That makes me feel better. I need to figure out how to get the 504 and OT done quickly. We found out today that my husband has a job! We are moving to Oklahoma City . Hopefully, this will be a good move. I just need to get things squared away with school before he leaves in October if possible. We are thinking that the kids and I will stay till Christmas break. Wish me luck.

KAthy

[TexasMom]

8-)Good Luck!!!!

(You'll be just 3 hours north of me.)

[kc4braves]

Thanks, Texasmom. You must be in the DFW area. I wish we could have found something in that area. Closer to my parents in MS and besides...I LOVE TEXAS! We will be there for NASCAR and Cowboys probably.

Kathy

[TexasMom]

Yes, I am about 30 miles north of Dallas (about 20 miles south of Denton).

Maybe we can meet up sometime when you are in town.

[kc4braves]

Thanks. That would be nice. Right now trying to figure out how moving is going to work exactly. lol We may not be up there till Christmas or it could be earlier.

Kathy

[kc4braves]

Well, still no 504. The teacher has finished her part and left things witht he Special Ed/504 Director. I have called all week and am wondering if she is out this week. I will call the main District number tomorrow to find out.

We had another appt with the Child Psych today. It has left me kinda shaking my head. I like the guy but he only gives us 5-10 mins of his time and the kids acted so bad today that I don't feel I got that. My son the adhder was all over the place. Not really normal behavior for him but not exactly new, either. my non-adhder was also all over the place. they ran around the office and didn't mind me or the doctor. It was terrible. That said...I tried to show the doctor some of ds's sloppy work. He asked how things were going and I wanted to discuss the messy handwriting, the forgotten books, etc. Well, he seemed totally shocked my ds messy, doodled on, unorganized papers but seemed more shocked at the good grades the teacher had given him. He wanted to talk about what was wrong with the teacher instead of how we could help ds. He increased his noon metadate CD booster from 10 mg to 20 mg which gives him 20 in the morning and 20 at lunch. He saw his behavior and said obviously the 10 wasn't working but just couldn't understand the teacher. I left there, after he walked out which is our signal to leave I guess, thinking he wanted ds to fail. Yes the teacher is grading to easy but is the answer to change the teacher or my son?

I tried to get his opinion re: dysgraphia thinking that if he thought we should test for it, it would be easier to get PCM to order it. He said that ds ( who is 9) is too young to dx dysgraphia!! That was pretty much the end of that discussion. Ok...so who do we go to to help us figure things out? IS there no one that does that? I guess he is only interested in meds...only. Although, I'm not sure how he can really mange those without other info. So he does meds only...and a psychologist would counsel on...what? Where is the person who coordinates everything? Why do I feel that is me and I have not the qualifications. There surely must be a person who looks a the child as a whole...not just a part like meds or counseling or behavior, etc. I am a PT and in rehab we always got togethere to discuss our patients. You know...the OT told what they found and thier plan, speech told her part, etc...and we adapted the plan based on what the goals were, etc. So how do things get coordinated for these kids? I guess I'm just frustrated. Most of these question are rhetorical, I guess. I just left the appt very upset with my kids and not really happy with the child psych, either. I don't have his education, but he hasn't done anything that I couldn't do IF I could write scripts!

Hopefully, I will get in touch with someone about the 504 tomorrow and will have something to report on that soon. Thanks for your input.

Kathy