Overwhelmed ADHDer! Need advice.

[SharonF]

What do you do when your ADHDer gets overwhelmed, doesn't even realize it, and shuts down? How do you help them acknowledge they need help?

My daughter is 13 and in 8th grade. She has ADHD-inattentive type, severe Central Auditory Processing Disorder affecting listening comprehension and higher-order language processing ability, and Nonverbal Learning Disability affecting abstract reasoning, math, 2D processing and fine motor.

She has an IEP as Language Impaired, including goals for language processing, reading comprehension, and math. She has weekly Language Therapy provided by the school. She is on 72 mg of Concerta daily and 3 mg of Melatonin to help her sleep. She is in reg ed classes for Science and Social Studies, inclusion classes for math and Language arts, and is in reading remediation.

Despite the long list of problems, she's generally a B student. She works her TAIL off. Incredibly motivated and determined. Always has been. Homework takes her 3 to 4 hours a night. Her processing speed is low. I assume her Working Memory is also low, but her last IQ test was the WISC-III which does not have a WMI. Neuropsych testing indicated specific difficulties with exec function. She is quite shy and never asks anyone for help with anything.

She hit a brick wall this past month. Every teacher was piling on tests, homework, complex assignments and mini-projects, plus a massive six-month project involving Washington DC in which they had to select a landmark, write a research paper, create a "to scale" model, then come up with a costume and write a 10-minute speech and give it in front of the entire 8th grade. No teacher let up AT ALL on their other assignments in March while the deadline loomed on the DC project.

My daughter asked a couple of teachers to help her with the "to scale" dimensions and all of the teachers sent her to someone else. So she stopped asking. She got overwhelmed and shut down.

I wrote ALL of her teachers an e-mail on March 9th begging for their help. s*rrender Only two responded. One criticized my daughter for not personally asking for the teachers' help, but offered to stay after school and help her catch up. Another teacher asked if she was assigning too much homework.

I made my daughter stay after school several days to work with the science teacher who offered to help. I called the private counselor who had worked with my kids in previous years. (My daughter was previously diagnosed with anxiety and depression but is no longer being treated for either.) I specifically asked that the counselor work with my daughter on recognizing when she is sinking and figuring out ways to ask for help. At the counselor's request, I also called the neurologist who prescribes the Concerta about any
link between Concerta and depression. I gave the doc and counselor permission to share info. My daughter has had two counseling sessions this month.

Thank goodness, the stinking project is done, the quarter has ended and my daughter's back to being herself. But this wasn't the first time she shut down from being overwhelmed and I'm afraid it won't be the last time.

What do you do when your kids are absolutely overwhelmed but don't acknowledge it and are too embarrassed to ask for help? a*yo*e

[brazos]

You bang it into their heads Sharon. As she gets older that is her only way to get the help she needs. After 4 years of begging my son to ask or raise his hand for help he is doing it. He still tanks, but he does acknowledge now that he gets overwhelmed.

Remember normal kids have problems with this much work, she should struggle. There are times I see assignments that I know most will not even do much less try to do, yet teachers assign things without much thinking about the normal ability of most kids.

Hopefully you can find her a teacher that truly understands her this year, once my oldest had a great teacher that just listened to him he felt like he could say, "uhhh I am not okay here." All kids need a comfort zone where they are feeling listened to and not griped at. She might be able to have that type of relationship with her teacher that thought the assignments were too hard. She has to see she can trust one teacher to know they are not all mean. Remember her mistrust is well founded and proven, so to break that wall is not easy for her.

You need to stress just like parents there are some great teachers that want to help her, not all are perfect but she can't move forward if she doesn't hold that hand up. My oldest is very shy, yeah I know he doesn't get it from me. That is what was different this year at the 504, they all said he does ask questions. They are aware when he is lost. Last year with his worst teacher he also had his great teacher. So he does trust some now, but it didn't happen the first 50 times I told him.

I hear about one climbing into the blame game, last year we had a teacher that started that game. As I reminded her the late assignment must not have been too important because 1 kid got into NHS and the other two (1 normal) and my ADHDer got a 50 on it. It can become a bully the kid, blame the parent when you are trying to get an education for them.

So Sharon I am glad that stinkin project is over for her and you, and she seems to be better for now. And you are right she will face this issue again, so prepare her as best as you can.

[Mayleng]

Sharon, I wish I have some advise for ya. But for things like this, I generally look to you for advise. My kids are all younger than yours, so I am sure I will be going through what you are right now.

I think Brazos gave some pretty good advise.

[d]

Hi Sharon!!!!

I can echo what brazos said. When "things" get overwhelming for your dd that she can't dig herself out of, step in and set up some boundaries with the school for her. In the meantime, teach her the skills, strategies, signs that she is getting overwhelmed so that she develops that as a LIFE skill she will need.

I know that sounds lame b/c I'm not telling you how to do that and know that it is not easy either - it's tricky plus only you know your dd best.

We grapple here that my dd would rather die of embarrassment than let me step in. The other night she did over her 2 hour limit on HW, then discovered she did the wrong math text page. So, I wrote a note in her agenda to the teacher saying as such and I ended the night for her. She quickly did the right math page (although she was *cooked* for the night) rather than showing her math teacher who is completely aware of my dd's situation that agenda note excusing her from the HW.

I've also spent the better part of this school year fending off that my dd does not need counseling by the idiot school psych - he wants to counsel her so that she better expresses her "needs" to teachers. You know I'm not against counseling but with regard to my dd I'm of the opinion that they need to give her the academic support and strategies to overcome the memory & organization stuff. Saying it's a matter of "counseling" or that we're enabling dependency, laziness, etc. without or instead of the right academic support is bullsh!@. In case you didn't notice I have a big chip on my shoulder this school year, our first in middle school.

But, I'm not sacrificing my dd's mental well-being b/c of school. School has never been around nights & weekends to pick up the pieces. My dd learned life is "not fair" in school years ago - she doesn't walk around feeling sorry for herself nor is she less responsbible or hard-working b/c of it. The whole I'm enabling her bit sets me off b/c she has worked damn hard her entire school life. I'll be the judge of the morals & values hubby & I stress to our kids, the school needs to take care of her school needs. Your dd had the anxiety and depression once before, right? as well as it runs in your family. She will be prone to it again so I'd be vigilant about eliminating and/or reducing situations that will contribute to a re-occurance. My dd does not have an anxiety dx, but she showed signs in 4th grade and the beginning of this year - both were times of big academic stress.

Did I answer your question or just rant? sh*kh*ad It's a sore subject for me. I know you've been concerned about your dd this school year.

[SharonF]

Thanks!!!

I appreciate your advice and concern.

A couple more details: Back in January, I got a call from my daughter's SpEd inclusion teacher. This woman co-taught my daughter's math and Language Arts classes in 7th grade, then moved with the class to 8th grade. She knows my daughter very well and can almost read her mind. She called me to say she was worried because my daughter was "lethargic" and "detached" in school. I talked to my daughter. She said she was "fine" except she couldn't fall asleep at night. I talked to the reading remediation teacher, who said my daughter showed no signs of depression, her dry sense of humor was as great as ever, and everything was fine. I documented everything but wasn't sure what was going on or how I should react.

In February, the Inclusion teacher called again. Very concerned that my daughter was "out of it." dd admitted she was having trouble concentrating and sleeping. The pediatric neurologist increased her to 72 mg of Concerta and put her on 3 mg of Melatonin. That seemed to help a little. But she was becoming more detached and overwhelmed, and when she shuts down she refuses to even talk.

My daughter didn't get her shyness from me, but got her bullheadedness from me. Very strong willed. She refuses to ask anyone, including me or her loving dad, for help with ANYTHING. She is the hardest working kid I have ever seen. The teachers have also told me that.

When I wrote the e-mail in distress to her teachers on March 9th, the teacher who offered to help her gave me some very disconcerting information. She had taken the class into the computer lab to do research on a mini-project. My daughter had just sat there doing nothing. VERY unlike her. The teacher asked why she was just sitting there. dd just shrugged.

I talked with the science teacher on the phone and she said my daughter's personality has definitely changed from the happy child she was at the beginning of the year. Okay--there were WAY too many signs of depression and/or anxiety for too long for me to continue to ignore or wait for improvement. I immediately called the counselor and made an appointment. My daughter was furious with me. "I'm not depressed. I just have too much homework" was her response. And she did have lots of homework, tests, retests because she failed the first tests, etc.

The counselor did not tell me specifics of what they discussed in their two sessions during March. That's okay. She did say that they discussed my concerns about being overwhelmed, she believes my daughter is on the right track and does not need any more counseling sessions now.

I have begged, pleaded, insisted and cajoled my daughter to ask for help over the years. No real results. I'm wondering if she really is able to recognize when she needs help. Or is she just being stubborn and refusing to ask? Or both?

We get along well for a mom and 13-year old daughter, but I truly believe that she will take advice better from an outsider than from her parents. That's why I took her back to the counselor. (I was the same way and had to go through counseling as a teenager.)

She never uses ADHD or CAPD or NLD or anything as an excuse. But she spends WAY too long doing homework and is burned out. We have tried to reduce her assignment load on a past IEP, but that backfired because she needs MORE practice, not less. Putting limits on homework or modifying assignments mean she won't learn what she has to learn. She just takes longer to learn things and do things. She is keenly aware of that and feels stupid as a result.

On her Third Quarter IEP Progress Report that came home last week, it stated that she is "not managing her workload well," and that the teachers are offering help but dd is "choosing not to accept it." From what I can tell, both are true statements.

She starts high school in the fall. I don't think it will be easier for her to ask for or accept help in that setting. She will really miss the SpEd teacher who can read her mind. I'm just at a loss. From what the teachers are saying, they are too. You can lead a horse to water...

[Mayleng]

Couldn't you ask the Sped Ed teacher who knows your daughter well, to talk to her about what to do when things get too much for her, and how important it is to ask for help. Maybe she would feel different if it came from a teacher she trusts.

[SharonF]

Thanks Mayleng. The SpEd teacher told me she's been talking to my daughter every day about the workload, how my daughter feels, what the teachers can do to help her. My daughter keeps telling the SpEd teacher that she's fine. The SpEd teacher believes she's not fine, knows that the homework is taking way too long, sees my daughter's "detached" attitude in school, but can't get my daughter to acknowledge there is a problem. Nor can I.

The SpEd teacher is the one who wrote the IEP Progress Report that said my daughter "chooses not to accept" the teachers' help.

For awhile, I wondered if I was imagining things and overreacting. Maybe my daughter IS fine. But taking 3 to 4 hours nearly every night to do regular homework is not fine. Spending eight hours one night trying to get a project done (one that she just sat in the computer lab and did nothing on the week before) is not fine. Shutting down emotionally for weeks on end is not fine. Having teachers tell me my daughter has changed is not fine. But dd insisted nothing is wrong.

Once the projects and tests were done with, she WAS fine. But this pattern keeps repeating itself. Usually during the third and fourth quarters of each school year. She's too stubborn or embarrassed to admit she's struggling or to ask for help. The more overwhelmed she gets, the more she shuts down. And it hurts to watch.

[brazos]

Sharon,
It definately sounds like your daughter was depressed. I am glad you took her to a counselor, she apparently needed it. I think you have to do something else though, I hear that future concern. Could you take her again to a psych for them to tell you what they think? I know it would make her mad, but you are correct HS has a lot more projects and pressure to deal with. You have to know she will be able to handle it.

[d]

SharonF said:

For awhile, I wondered if I was imagining things and overreacting. Maybe my daughter IS fine. But taking 3 to 4 hours nearly every night to do regular homework is not fine. Spending eight hours one night trying to get a project done (one that she just sat in the computer lab and did nothing on the week before) is not fine. Shutting down emotionally for weeks on end is not fine. Having teachers tell me my daughter has changed is not fine. But dd insisted nothing is wrong.

Once the projects and tests were done with, she WAS fine. But this pattern keeps repeating itself. Usually during the third and fourth quarters of each school year. She's too stubborn or embarrassed to admit she's struggling or to ask for help. The more overwhelmed she gets, the more she shuts down. And it hurts to watch.

That's what freaks me out - the shut down thing. These ADHD girls have years of hiding this stuff and we don't know exactly what goes on in their heads. Keep her talking however much you can.

We have built up my dd's self esteem as much as we could and when she encounters difficulties, sometimes it is easy for her to revert back to the I'm stupid type stuff - much easier for her than for other kids since she believed it for a good two year period years ago. So we have to remind her and she does come back from it. I think part of my dd's "fire" is similar to your dd's - if my dd just works a little harder, she can do it as I question at what expense to her. The 3-5 hours/night of homework is what did my dd in this fall - I saw her start crashing like she did in 1st grade aka the dx year and the year from hell all around - self esteem, etc. She didn't crash as badly as she did then but what freaked me out was that her rate of crashing was so much faster this time around. No child, teen or adult can sustain putting that much pressure on themself w/o paying a price.

Sharon, I think you know that I have ADHD, dx'd 2 years after my dd. On "paper" I look good but man there have been some scars that were difficult to come to terms with over the last few years. It bubbled out of me b/c decades of defense mechanisms and coping strategies no longer worked. So, I react over-emotionally when it comes to protecting ADHD girls mental well-being (ok girls and boys). I think it is extremely important that my dd develops self-awareness and acceptance about how her ADHD effects her (b/c unfortunately I cannot trail her through her adult life) and is based on my own baggage. So, we do the balancing act with me taking oppy's when I can to make sure she understands what she is able to take in - you know they get weird with the hormonal stuff and my dd is only 11 so I can only imagine what the next few years will bring! So, little by little whenever she may be receptive I do it. It also helps that I have it so once in a while I get the opp'y to use my actions as an example and we usually chuckle (other times not!),

I also know that with my dd sometimes there are no clear-cut easy answers and often it is a combination of factors when things go wrong for her. But I also know that mommy instinct is incredibly powerful. If you think this is a clear pattern of a bad cycle when the pressure is on then talk to that counselor AGAIN. Also, your dd might be more receptive to thinking about it while she is not in the midst of a bad cycle. Trust your instincts.

Other than that, you know I wish I had the magic answer for you. I do know that once in a while when things are bad for my dd, I'm hectic and harried, etc. a day off with just the two of us with unplanned fun works well. E.g., a Saturday with no errands - purposely put everything aside, don't do anything that has to be done and get in the car, stop for a manicure or a movie whatever appeals to you. Don't think of it as a time to talk to her about this stuff, just enjoy each other and let things be. You both need a break from all that stuff and it is restorative.

I am also tempted to go off on a rant about teachers and the fine line between objective observations you can compare with what you see at home and the "I don't see any *behavior* problems at school". My dd has had years of holding it together during the day and we get the fall-out at home. Teachers do not realize, know and many cannot begin to understand the clean-up at home - just that they see of my polite, kind, cooperative kid at school. Do I sound like a crazy person yet?

Lastly, have you read anything by Kathleen Nadeau and Patricia Quinn? Get a copy of "Understanding Women with ADHD" if you already have "Understanding Girls...". It may give you a preview of adulthood. They also have a text called "Gender Issues in ADHD". Some of the stuff may be dated even though the book is pretty new (I think they were inconclusive about neuropsychological & executive functioning and ADHD when more has come out since then). The tons of contributors are highly respected in the ADHD field. For a text, it was an easy read too. You can get them on addwarehouse.com and maybe amazon.

[SharonF]

Thanks d!!

You have shared some heartfelt, solid advice.

Compounding all of my daughter's difficulties are her comorbids. "Talking it out" is extremely difficult for her. The counselor we see is not only a Licensed Professional Counselor, but was an LD specialist for several decades before going to divinity school, then becoming a counselor for adolescents and young adults. When she first started counseling my two kids, she said they both have developmental aphasia. I'd never heard the term. Aphasia is often associated with stroke patients who lose their ability to speak. But developmental aphasia means the person is born with an impaired ability to use language effectively. People with Developmental Aphasia quickly learn to compensate on the surface, but most of their strategies are ineffective as they get older.

The counselor said my kids SEEM to have no problems with receptive or expressive language, but you only have to dig a little deeper to find out they "parrot" language. They struggle to use receptive and expressive language for deep meaning at an age-appropriate level. Both have severe Central Auditory Processing Disorder and difficulty with higher-order language processing.

Don't get me wrong. Their language processing SEEMS fine to the casual observer. No teacher EVER realized there was a problem (except my son's preschool teacher did a lesson on Native Americans and called him Quiet River because she said there's a lot more going on inside him than he ever lets on.) I didn't realize either kid had a problem until the bottom fell out for both in middle school.

Obviously, when either kid is under stress, the FIRST thing to go is their language processing. Using language takes too much effort. Shut down may be her self-preservation. "Detachment" may be her only way of coping. But like you say, at what cost?

Add hormones, her Nonverbal Learning Disability and just being 13, and her life IS overwhelming at times. I'm grateful that some of her teachers realize something is not right, but they are as confused as I am about finding ways for her to acknowledge that she's sinking and to ask for help.

I loaned my copy of Nadeau's book about girls with ADHD to swmom. We plan to get back together in April and she's offered to return the books I loaned to her. I'll have to re-read that section. Thanks for the reminder.

d, I understand about the scars of having a learning difference. After my daughter was diagnosed with NLD, I realize I have NLD. Big time. Pretty darned classic symptoms. I was a straight A student all through school with a high IQ, but I was socially inept as a kid (sometimes still am). The harder I tried to make friends as a kid, the fewer friends I had. I got involved in some really stupid behavior as a teenager. I guess I was so desperate for friends I would do anything. But I thought I had my act together and my flaws covered up as an adult. Then a couple weeks ago, I stumbled across a job performance review I had received in 1995. Not a good one. My boss' boss had also written a few lines on it. His description of my poor performance areas were like they were taken out of an Autism Spectrum manual. But he didn't know I have NLD (which is on the Spectrum.) I didn't know back then that I have NLD. Wow--my NLD was showing even when no one realized that's what it was.

So I understand, d. My daughter got her dyslexia/CAPD from my wonderful husband, her NLD from me, her ADHD from who knows where. Maybe that's why I'm trying to protect her from the worst of the pain. I know how deeply it cuts and how the scars never go away. Pain and struggles produce endurance and character. But too much pain and overwhelming struggles over too long a period of time produce humiliation and despair. I can't let the latter happen to her. I love her too much.

[d]

Sharon, I had tears welling up when I read your post this morning. I started a long post back but had to attend to a dreck busy work day.

Wow, you're motives NLD and NLD in your dd with the scarring hit me hard since they are the same as my ADHD situation.

Honestly, if I were you get those other two Nadau/Quinn books. I can't articulate exactly why but I have a strong hunch that reading them could spark an idea or two that help you "crack" your dd's current situation. I may very well be wrong here but it may be worth a shot (my gut instinct is usually pretty good and it's fairly strong on this).

[SharonF]

Thanks, d. Your care and concern mean a lot. More than you know. Thanks, also, for your great insight on the recent ADHD-in thread on Schwablearning.org.

It's funny how a person can "appear" to have it all together but feel like it's all hanging by a skinny little thread. Yeah, I was valedictorian. I was just good with words and giving teachers what they wanted. I was a radio and TV anchor for 22 years and won lots of awards. I have a great, loving husband, a house in the 'burbs, two wonderful kids, a beagle. Just like a Christmas card picture. But sometimes, I feel two steps away from it all unraveling. My current job is awful! I'm looking for another job and have been invited back for a second interview on one position, so there's hope. But I'm worn out.

I've decided to give up rather than fight my daughter's school on most issues anymore. She's 9-weeks from getting out of middle school and I can't put forth the energy to fight that school anymore. I fought them for four years now over two kids. I am emotionally exhausted. No wonder my daughter is, too. My husband and I have spent our kids' college funds just keeping them afloat for the past four years. It royally stinks.

Okay, enough sob story. (I've been wanting to use that icon!)

Thanks for caring. Thanks for encouraging. Thanks for understanding. Like I said, it means more than you know.

[Mayleng]

Sharon, good luck with the job.

I am rooting for ya.

[swmom]

Sharon -

I just got back. When can I bring the books to you? I'll be around tonight and all weekend. Anytime is fine with me. Dd and dh have a date tonight. I'll be here unpacking and can get the books up to you anytime. Give me a call.

[d]

and (I've been *dying* to use the cheers on a Friday night like VaMom did once!)

Without sounding too maudlin (sp?) and promising myself I'm getting offline in 5 min. so my girls and I can do our Friday night ritual of watching our favorite TV shows together...

with your job search!!! I've been chewing off Mayleng's ear for a while now on my job situation - lots of life choices I need to make in the next few months compunded by horridly real and mature meaning of life and ethics questions. So sorry about your job situation. I'm very impressed by your award-wining anchor!

Yeah, we've spent both my dd's college fund on tutoring, advocacy, etc. for my older. Today, I plunked down ridiculous amounts of money on root canal, two pairs of rx eyeglasses, my non-negotiable every other month hair color appointment, over-priced quality take-out food (all but dinner were "just in case" given my job situation) and.... now special ed attorney fees. I was realizing the implications of that on my job status and am still processing this new turn that our "journey" may take us. (The visual of me running from the hair salon, having blown off my eyebrow wax and with barely combed sopping wet hair to make the att'y appt. may be chuckle-worthy.)

In my dd's first year of middle school, the first one in a few years that she lost a bit of that sparkle in her eyes (and that bothers me a *lot*), this is where we stand following lots of consideration and weighing all including the no guarantees aspects.

So, emotionally rest up and please take your dd out for a manicure or something tomorrow. You both deserve and *need* it. 9 weeks left of MS - let all that school stuff go and don't look back (just not your dd's emotional health). Take time to remember what life is all about with your family this weekend - that is what heals me.

And, please hang around, I've got TWO more years of middle school left for dd so I will absolutely need your advice and experience. You've been "there" for me too.

Back to reality - I've had something like 10 interruptions in the last minute and just rescued my own "devil dawg" (yeah the canine kid) from poisonous Easter chocolate, so I'm signing off. Have a GREAT night and RESTFUL weekend.



Take care. It's a wonder what a Friday night's sleep can do.

[SharonF]

for your message, d. I read it last week but didn't respond until now (obviously.)

So how funny did you look running from the salon to the SpEd attorney?

A week of spring break put the spring back in my 13-year old daughter's step. She is so resilient. Yet every third and fourth quarter, the weight of school is more than her incredibly strong shoulders can bear. She never complains. No outbursts. She just quietly shuts down. I hope high school is better. It was for our son, but he has LDs without ADHD. I think the ADHD plus two very different LDs (verbal and nonverbal) really complicates things for our daughter.

She had her ADHD checkup at the ped neuro yesterday. All's cool. Sticking with the 72 mg of Concerta and 3 mg of Melatonin. She actually grew an inch since November. That's wonderful. Her growth has really slowed since going on Concerta.
He's a great doc who understands the games schools play and is willing to go to great lenths to get the services the child deserves.

I appreciate your encouragement and support on the job front. Second interview will be next Monday.

Good luck with your situation. I know what you mean about reaching that point in your life (mid life crisis???)when you ponder if you're really doing what the good Lord put you on Earth to do. Part of me wants to follow my passion and help LD/ADHDers full time. Then I remember the mortgage, the car payment... Maybe I'm just supposed to help people through internet message boards and earn a living another way.

Anyway, I hope your hair color looks great, the dentist accepts installment payments, and that great things happen in your job situation! Thanks for being there, listening, supporting, encouraging. I truly appreciate it!

[d]

Hey Sharon - so glad dd feels better!!!

Religion should be winding down in the next 3 weeks which signals to me the BEGINNING of end of the school year. I am ready for summer - no schedules and no homework!

fcr*ssing on your job prospects.

I've finally come to some closure and acceptance on a bunch of counts. I hope you do too (like on Monday! ;D )

And, yes you lifted me up too.

Take care,
d