Recess - should it be earned?

[ohmama]

In a self contained classroom for children with various behavior problems, is it right to make recess a privledge that should be earned? I don't mean taking away recess for a time or two as punishment if there is misbehavior. What I'm talking about is starting out with no recess and having to earn it by reaching certain levels of good behavior.

Recess is at level 3. I'm not sure what this involves yet. This is called a positive behavior program where the child is in a very structured setting and starts out with no privledges. The privledges come as they are deserved or "earned" and as the theory goes they are then appreciated and a source of encouragement that the child can look forward to.

My thought is this... each child has different needs that should be addressed. It would seem reasonable that these needs include physical, emotional, behavioral, etc. For example, would you restrict a child with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) from having a snack till they earn that "privledge"? I think everyone would agree this should be a "given". Would it be reasonable to restrict a child from recess who has a diagnosed anxiety disorder and would (in my opinion) require the physical exercise of an outdoor recess? That is my main question.

Would you restrict a child with a bladder problem from going to the bathroom when they felt the need if it wasn't a scheduled time for bathroom break? This also should be a "given".

So, where does recess fall into it? Is it right to restrict a child with an anxiety disorder and adhd from recess till he earns it? Is there any law that addresses this specific question? Please, can someone point me to something that would define if this is legal?

[d]

My gut instinct is that no recess or the threat of it is very wrong.

I agree that privileges should be earned and say that despite that I'm an enabling parent of the new self-entitled generation ("Mom, we should fire our cleaning lady, she stinks..") we're raising.

All kids need the outlet of recess to let off steam and get some exercise - all of which should effect them positively for when they return to the classroom.

For ADHD kids, it's a necessity. For self-contained class with various needs kids, I'd venture to say it's an *absolute* necessity.

There are 504 and IDEA reg's that pertain to this but I can't remember the specifics. I think that it is something to the effect of can't be punished or punishment must be judiciously doled out if related to the child's disability. This whole must earn recess spin by your school may put a different spin on it UNLESS this is the ONLY CLASS in the school where the recess is a privilege system is established.

[Mayleng]

Ohmama, I can't answer this question, but if you post it over at messageboard.schwablearning.org/schwab/board?board.id=11

The members there would be able to point you to any Sped Ed laws about it.

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to have to earn recess especially for kids who really need them. What is wrong with these teachers?

[Brenda]

I'm curious to know the answer to that question also.My dd has to earn 3 privledges a day.Recess,talking at lunch,and free time.This new behavior plan started 2 weeks ago and only applies to her and 3 boys in her class.She's lost her recess at least 7 times in 10 days.I wish I knew if there is a law against it...

[d]

Brenda, I'm for you. Your dd is being singled out in a general classroom. I am not an expert in behavior plans but do know that rewarding ADHDers for positive behavior works very well.

This whole earning privileges that other kids in the class are automatically given is NOT positive. It calls attention to negative behavior and is punitive. It's an extremely poor interpretation of positive behavioral support.

A more productive approach would be saying privately to the child "I noticed that you didn't call out at all during math today. I'm so proud of you. Here is a 'gotchya ticket'" The gotchya tickets are "caught you being good tickets. If a kid gets enough they can buy a pencil or eraser at the teacher's store or the teacher hands out a treat (the teacher store is another opp'y for LEARNING too). Reward the desired behaviors and pick & choose battles with undesirable ones. Also, for many kids, any attention even bad attention is attention and therefore good. That's when kids develop the "I don't care" bravado and walls between teachers & kids are built.

Don't even get me started on the color card system!!!!!

[d]

I'm now incensed and obsessed for both of you so I posted your questions on schwab.

[ohmama]

Thanks girls! That was a quick response. I went over to schwablearning and saw your post Brenda (cmdm) and will watch for a response. Or is cmdm really you d? It looks like we (Brenda) are both faced with this and it doesn't feel good at all.

Before I agree to put my fireboy in this class I need to discuss what the rules are and get a complete behavioral functional assessment to see if we can tailor make it according to his needs. I visit the class on Friday and will know more then. There are 12 kids in the class (4th, 5th, & 6th grade combined). Each kid is working on a different behavior but as I see it that would mean there should be a different arrangement that depends on what their needs are?? I don't know, this is all new to me. I'm having a problem already giving these people so much power over my child. I'm not one to sit quiet. It's going to be a bumpy ride for all of us.

[Brenda]

I called the teacher when she started her new"behavior" plan.I told her I didn't think she should ever miss recesss.She said she doesn't like it either but didn't know how else to handle them so she talked to the guidance counselor.The counselor told her to make visual reminders on sticky notes.She puts 3 notes on their desks and removes them as needed.She said she told them they are earning their privledges.My dd already has her desk in a corner and now has sticky notes on it. I know she feels "different".She told me yesterday everyone at school thinks she's mean.I can't wait until school's out.Maybe next year will be better and she'll get a teacher who knows how to teach.This makes me want to homeschool.

[Mayleng]

ohmama, cmdm is our "d".

Brenda, I would have a talk with the counselor about this behavior modification. I agree with d about how it is negative reinforcement and is affecting Steph's self esteem and also making other kids see her as "bad" all the time. I really hate the behavior plans of the schools, my son suffered for two yrs - kindergarten & first grade because of these stupid, ill conceived plans. It did more damage than good. From 2nd grade onwards, he had great teachers and is considered one of the nicest, respectful boys in his 2nd & 3rd grade classes. I do discipline him (I will not suffer any rudeness or laziness), but I am not punitive and neither should be the teacher.

I hope the schwabbies can come up with some answers for you.

[Brenda]

I think I need to request a certain teacher for her next year.I've been looking online for a list of certain qualifications a teacher should have to teach a child with adhd.

[d]

ohmama, we're similar in that I'm a control freak, could not be described as a wallflower and am not one to sit quiet either. You will do just finethankyouverymuch in all of this and work those traits to fireboy's advantage... You're asking carefully considered intelligent reasonable questions. You have dead on instincts so I wouldn't worry about being new to this stuff either.

Brenda, you are right with Steph feeling different. It is likely she knew she was "different" (which is NOT the same as "bad") even before she was dx'd a while back. In general, our ADHDers do not want to be singled out for their differences - it is already something they are well aware of. That's why I'm incensed about mis-interpreting positive behavior plans - they add to damage not help.

For teacher selection, a great classroom teacher is priceless! They can turn around a kid, make them love school again, etc. In my district, we cannot specify teacher names so my standard request for teacher qualities and my dd's needs were:

Structured yet flexible
Organized
Inventive
Champion for ALL her kids
(you want a teacher that believes the opp'y to succeed is the right of each and every student)
Compassionate
(my principal always cringed at that one but it's been a common trait among my dd's great teachers)

Sandra Reif has a great book called "The ADHD Checklist for Teachers & Parents". It is a book of lists so is a very easy read. I highly recommend it - you will find very usesful school-related info. I heard she has come out with a new book that is great too.

Mayleng, stop outing me!!!!! ;D ;D (not that it matters anyway) And all of you should believe that Mayleng is a major hardbutt when it comes to discipline - just ask her older son who had something like a 2 month loss of 'puter privileges. (we need a smiley that sticks its tongue out which would be perfect here) ;D

[swmom]

Absolutely not. There are many other incentives for good behavior in my opinion. Recess(i.e. physical activity) should always be viewed an essential part of living, not just an extra thing we do for fun. Learning that begins in elementary school. I truly believe that it is that kind of thinking that is at the root of all the problems we have with obesity these days.
There are so very many benefits, both physical and mental, from physical exercise, that it should be very close to the top of the list if not at the top. What are these people thinking?

[kc4braves]

d,
I really appreciate your list. It reads very similarly to what I requested last year for this year and did NOT get. Only, your list is more to the point. Maybe I will borrow it for next year.

Someone mentioned the color card system. Boy am I glad they don't use that system at this school or in ds class. It totally robbed him of all his self-esteem. I thought we'd never get over it( still working on it). However, his 2nd grade teacher last year, complimented it with the "I caught you being good"system. She was very disorganized but she significantly increased his esteem. I cannot say enough for positive reinforcement, especially from teachers.

I would love to have my son in a program or a class with someone working to help him from an ADHD standpoint, but not if they are going to make him feel small again. I hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction.

Kathy

[Mayleng]

d said:

Mayleng, stop outing me!!!!! ;D ;D (not that it matters anyway) And all of you should believe that Mayleng is a major hardbutt when it comes to discipline - just ask her older son who had something like a 2 month loss of 'puter privileges. (we need a smiley that sticks its tongue out which would be perfect here) ;D

Hey d ! you outed yourself , and as you can see we do have a smiley that sticks it's tongue out. ;D

Yes, I am a hardbutt (as you put it). The ironic part is my ADDer is so much easier to handle than my soon to be teenager (the one who got grounded for 2 months - no TV, no friends, no video/computer games - he lied to me ONCE about using the computer when he did not have permission). ADDer is bringing home A's, while teenager is bringing home C's and D's. Teenager is capable of A's. I told him if he is not careful, he will be grounded for life but that would be punishing me instead.

[Brenda]

Thanks for the list d.I'm going to make a copy and send it to the principal.I will look for the book too.

[Mayleng]

Here's a link to the thread d started at schwab:

messageboard.schwablearning.org/schwab/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=87133

[kc4braves]

I have been reading all of this and now have a somewhat related question. Is it ok for the child to miss recesses completing work or miss snack time frequently completing work? I'm not sure what to do. The teacher is allowing my son to take all the time he needs to complete papers, etc. but, apparently, this is often at the expense of snack time ( which he needs) and sometimes recess. I'm happy that she is accomodating his need for more time but.....I know he needs to eat ( he is skin and bones) and he needs to run around. Any ideas on this?

Kathy

[ilovemyboys]

I would check with the state and town policies regarding recess. Many districts mandate recess.

I do believe in holding kids in to finish work ONLY once in a while. For instance, this punishment worked immediately for my son who was lazy in finishing his homework and schoolwork. A few days of no recess and he was doing is homework and schoolwork consistantly. However, if it is just because they are incapable of finishing the work, then the child needs to have recess. Its definitely counterproductive to the school, a child who needs to run will be very disruptive by the end of the day.

[willoweezie]

Ihere have already been some really great responses and inputs to this topic, but I thought I'd chime in since Sage's class is structured exactly this way. I am in complete agreement that recess should be a given.

I believe recess is one of the priveleges they have to earn in S's class at level 2 (which they reach at 5 successful days). S has been knocked WAAAY down since we have been struggling with the meds & I'm not even sure what level she's at now. They can lose recess to make up work if they refuse to do it or end up eating lunch in "support" (separate room they get sent to if they are out of control or can request to go to if they feel they can't handle a given situation) where the only thing they can eat is pb&j with white milk. My issue with this is that she HATES peanut butter, has never ever liked eating it, and really doesn't like sandwiches in general. So the times she has had to go, twice last week, she eats nothing and just throws it away, not to mention it made her even more upset that she had only the choice of eating something she hated, thus prolonging her melt down. They don't make kids with peanut allergies eat pb&j... so is it OK to make that the only choice for a child who really really doesn't like it?

Sometimes I think the hyper-structure of the class actually makes more problems. There are things that are against the rules that in a mainstream class would probably be ignored completely (for example, S asked her art teacher if she could go to the bathroom, teacher said yes, but then she got points taken off for leaving the room by the teaching assistant... ) Another problem I see is "priveleges" they earn not being implemented. At level 4 they get to spend time with the center's hamster. We have a hammie & Sage loves to play with her, but has never been allowed to go see the hamster even when she was at the level where that was a privelege. What's the point of saying they have earned something but not allowing it?

OK, I have rambled on enough! Glad this topic came up though!

[VaMom]

Willow, did you read on the Schwab thread that recess is mandated in Virginia? I think you need to give your school a copy of the law.

I don't know whether this thread makes me want to or

Probably both.

[willoweezie]

I hear you VAMom! I will double check the list and see if recess is earned at a certain level. I did read the scwab thread...good to know we live in one of only 2 states that feel recess is neccessary!

All this talk about the alarming amount of childhood obesity and 48 states don't care either way if kids have recess or not?!

Sheesh!

[d]

kc4braves - my dd had a similar situation.

She had to maintain weight and I had to break school rules by sending her in with high calorie junk food not healthy snacks. Her doc told us to cram high calorie stuff into her and the more fat calories the better.

But she didn't eat them b/c snack time was at the end of finishing an assignment. My dd never finished assignments with time to eat her snack.

We did the following for two elementary school years with the help of her teachers. I told her she would be in serious trouble if she didn't eat her daily school snack. Her teachers pulled her aside and told her that it was perfectly ok that she eat her snack whenever she felt like it (without the teacher telling her it was ok, she didn't want to break rules or appear different). They kept their eyes on her for the first two weeks or so to make sure she ate and didn't have to monitor after that. One year she had a friend in her class that was diabetic and ate whenever she needed to so that worked well to remind dd to eat.

The teachers were very understanding and wanted to be in my dd's position. I offered that if need be, I could get a doctor's letter and have it in her IEP if they wanted. They assured me that wasn't necessary. They were very good about it.

I know there is no legal right to snack time but almost all the elementary grades here have daily snack but she did have a valid medical concern.

[d]

You know what the irony here is? Isn't gym a mandate in all states to promote physical activity? If physical activity and sportsmanship is so important, why does it apply to gym but not recess?

Plus all the headines about the health risks of childhood obesity undercorres the need for MORE physical activity that kids get during recess.

[ohmama]

I found out that the way to get around this recess farce is to have it written into the IEP that your child has a medical need to take breaks (don't call it recess) often through out the day. And that this be done by outside activity so as to provide a proper release of energy that will help with the treatment and diagnosis of anxiety and adhd.

I will be meeting with the self contained classroom teacher next week to discuss specifically how this will be done. I didn't need a letter from our doctor because the man in charge of all the special ed programs is wonderful as well as flexable. He has assured me that this is possible since it is a major issue with me and he wants to help my boy. It is also very logical that a child with adhd and anxiety would need this provision.

If you are facing this issue then know that nothing is carved in stone. The IEP is a legal document and we have solid reasons that can be shown to have medical backing to get what we need for our kids. Even the self contained classroom can have these needs met if you go for it.

[d]

ohmama and you were so concerned about how you'd navigate this stuff. I couldn't be prouder of you friend!

(Now just make sure you get or put everything in writing. Those two sentence thank you letters that happen to state your understanding are good. In sp ed, unless it's in writing it never happened.)

[ohmama]

Yes, I'm getting it in writing! Wow, this feels good!