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Post by TerryB on Sept 22, 2004 5:44:09 GMT -5
My daughter had homework in 3 subjects plus her 20 minute reading last night. She is in third grade. The homeword would have been not too lengthly accept that for the Math and Social Studies she had absolutely NO CLUE how to do the homework so I had to teach her. I know she spaces in school but she knew NOTHING! Well the Social Studies was easy for me to teach but Math was another story. I don't have the skills to teach a flawless lesson in rounding so I naturally fumbled a little bit to find the right words to make it click. She blew up, calling herself STUPID, waking herself in the head, snapping at her little sister for evey noise she made, flinging papers and pencils around. I couldn't calm her down (resisted breathing) so I kept sending her away from the homework to calm herself down. She'd return barely composed and try again. The cycle of a few minutes of learning and then the explosion went on from 3:30 until bedtime except for dinner and I'll have to get her up in 15 minutes to finish this AM. She did finally understanding rounding to the tens, hundreds, and thousands so there were some tears of joy toward evening but gosh what a tornado. Her issues totally controlled the household and her little sister was neglected by us and abused by her hysterical sister. We thanked the little one at the end for her patience etc... but it didn't feel right. I generally handle the emotional outbursts with patience but if every night was like this, I think I'd have to find some alternative to the situation like having a homework helper after school.
I sure hope today is better because I work until 5:30 and my hubby will be alone with the little tornado after school.
Terry
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Post by chaknine on Sept 22, 2004 6:40:00 GMT -5
Terry is this going on alot? My daughter has had an awful time in math this year, so your not alone. She also is in the third grade. B is just barely getting by. She is doing better with her math, but it was horrod to start out with! Hang in there! A homework helper is an awesome idea!
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Post by RobbysMom on Sept 22, 2004 17:08:30 GMT -5
My guy is a 3rd grader also, but his teacher believes in the "10 minutes of homework per grade" guideline. (Including the 20 min of reading required.) Homework is to practice what you learned that day to help you remember, not for it to go as far as you (the parent)having to re-teach her what was taught in class. If this is a continuous battle I would have her 504 plan re-evaluated. I know a 7th grader who had a very strong 504 plan in place when it came to homework. (Mostly no written homework or his parents could do it orally with him and they could write it out.) I know a strong 504 is another battle in itself, but if nightly homework is a continous battle it's something I would definitely look into.
I hope you find the homework solution that works for you and your daughter!
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Post by JV on Sept 22, 2004 18:38:09 GMT -5
TerryB,
I think that Robbysmom is right, I remember a 10 minute rule per grade also, but I dont know if it is an "official guideline" or not. But as Chaknine said if this is going on alot, I would keep track of it and what you are doing, when I was confronted by this, I wrote down each problem that I helped with and what I had to teach, I sent copies to the teacher and the principal, explained how long it took, and we were able to recieve some additional help. We had a resource center where the SE children could go and recieve help when they did not understand. You might need to get this extra avenue set up so that there is the one on one teaching on things that are more complicated. It usually is best that there is the pricipal involved in order to make changes then they have to be formally written up in the 504. Hope this is helpful. JV
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Post by eaccae on Sept 22, 2004 19:24:15 GMT -5
We have started having issues lately. DS really needs his down time when he gets home from school. This year - the meds are wearing off about that time and so we are in for a joyous half hour. I let him do his own thing and then it is homework time. This year in 4th it is a little more intense - they have 20 minutes of reading and then 20 minutes worth of other homework. DS finally has a 504 this year - he has extended time for his writing assignments - I don't know if this is why or if it is just assigned reading - but for homework he tends to get a worksheet and a book - he must read a couple of chapters and write a summary. I have suffered through lengthy homework wars for years - let's face it - what could take a lot of kids 10-20 minutes to do can take ours HOURS! This year - with the reading - I have realized I am going to have to get that booster of ritalin. DS who is one of the best readers in the school CANNOT read off meds - he can't focus - which means he has to read the chapters out loud to keep himself focused . . . I have tried to avoid it - but he missed a day when he had an emergency dental appointment, and then REFUSED to do his homework one night - so he had 5 chapters to read and write a summary on. I gave him another Ritalin LA and wow! He sat there and read his 5 chapters, wrote his summary, did his "editing" worksheet and his math worksheet . . . I guess it is time!
Terry -that seems a lot of homework for third grade. We have homework policies - 3rd grade was a half hour worth of homework: 15 minutes of reading, 15 minutes other. This year it is 40 minutes: 20 minutes of reading, 20 minutes of other. We have had similar issues with math homework. There were times when he knew absolutely NOTHING - I mean, adding 5 + 10 would take 15 minutes . . . I could never understand how he was paassing math - he always was grade level - not his strongest subject - but grade level. I have realized since then it was all a concentration issue - he did fine in school when he was on his meds and able to focus. At home it was a completely different story. But I will say that on those nights - I didn't make him finish his homework - I would writie a note to the teacher - even his not-so-great 3rd grade teacher was receptive to them. I didn't do it EVERY night - but those extra bad nights - I figured that on those nights it just wasn't worth it. This year - he has matured quite a bit and the homework is starting to seem more important (like the summaries) so I am making him more responsible. But he is even that much more mature that I think he can take it.
Sorry I am rambling - my brain is mush right now! anyway - hope that it gets better!!!
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Post by TerryB on Sept 22, 2004 21:01:31 GMT -5
You guys are very helpful. Today did go better. Less homework and no new skills learned today.
chaknine, we just started the new school year a couple weeks ago so I think that there are so many new changes that my daughter is on edge most of the time. This anxiety should gradually improve. It seems like homework takes way longer than it would for a "normal" child as eaccea pointed out. My daughter is not medicated so far but her focus seems to be adequate in the AM and at school but insufficient after school. She also is naturally intelligent so she has gotten away with a significant amount of day-dreaming at school. We may have hit the grade where the teacher does not repeat information enough for my daughter to always pick up enough. Fourth grade has always been the major "cram" year where there are standardized tests at the end of the year. No one will teach 4th grade for very long around here so maybe the 3rd grade teachers are now expected to prepare the kids more for 4th grade.
Robby's mom, we don't have a 504 plan because my daughter's grades have been too good (except for attention.) I know that bright kids have rights too but it is so difficult to get our school do a 504 that we have done everything to try to work with the teachers directly. The teachers have been awesome, I must say. Most of the administrators, however, are abusive, ignorant, dishonest and incompetent. I did get a 504 for my child that has rheumatoid arthritis and OCD. After the 504 process was done, the communication was so poor that I ended up dealing with the teachers directly anyway. But at least it has legal teeth if something goes wrong and my duaghter suffers injury.
If I end up playing teacher over and over then I'll have to discuss it with the teacher. Robby's mom, JV and eaccae, I'll keep those time limits in mind because we do have an intense school district and things may be getting a little out of control. I'd rather have homework on the weekend then too much in one night when my daughter can't focus as well.
We also have an issue with teacher-disorganization this year. Homework assignments are either written on the board, given verbally, or a sheet of homework is slipped into a take-home folder. I'm not complaining that my daughter has to get use to different ways of receiving information but it is cumbersome. We also don't know when tests are given including Spelling. This change is stressful to my daughter because she hates to do poorly on tests and she needs to study to do well. We'll try to find ways to adapt and compensate but transitions come tough to my daughter.
eaccae, I'm going to take your advice and throw in the towel and plead for help if I'm teaching entirely new concepts to my daughter. I'll give it a try, naturally, but I'm going to dump it back on the teacher if we are really struggling. We're too independent sometimes.
Thanks again everyone,
Terry
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Post by d on Sept 22, 2004 21:41:37 GMT -5
We also have an issue with teacher-disorganization this year. Homework assignments are either written on the board, given verbally, or a sheet of homework is slipped into a take-home folder. I'm not complaining that my daughter has to get use to different ways of receiving information but it is cumbersome. We also don't know when tests are given including Spelling. This change is stressful to my daughter because she hates to do poorly on tests and she needs to study to do well. We'll try to find ways to adapt and compensate but transitions come tough to my daughter. eaccae, I'm going to take your advice and throw in the towel and plead for help if I'm teaching entirely new concepts to my daughter. I'll give it a try, naturally, but I'm going to dump it back on the teacher if we are really struggling. We're too independent sometimes. TerryB the first paragraph is sending off alarms. This is not how you ingrain organization and good study habit in any kid and particularly not an ADHD kid. It's too much to expect of 3rd graders - that plus more skills are required, state tests, etc. - it's way too much. Give your dd a break (which I know you do) - she may be short circuiting from that alone. My dd who is on meds wouldn't have survived in that class. Does your dd have an agenda book with the subjects already listed? So if she has no math hw that day, she can draw a line through the math box. Let her keep that agenda open on her desk all day so she can write down whatever assignment the teacher is throwing at her in whatever form. Maybe, just maybe that will help. It is still asking too much of her IMO. And come up with your own homework modifications if need be like every other math problem or draw a line when you stop after 20 mins. per subject and you initial it. Don't let it come between your relationship with her or ruin family life - it's not worth it! Also, start some sort of record of this stuff in case you need documentation for the 504. Have you approached the teacher? Maybe it's worth establishing a "good working relationship" with her however how much she doesn't get "it". Maybe she will (I'm so cynical by nature with the schools). Just be careful. My non-ADHDer with zero school issues had the 3rd grade teacher from hell last year. She was so *  by the end of the year and didn't learn as much as she should've. |
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Post by TerryB on Sept 24, 2004 7:40:27 GMT -5
The alarms are really going off now d. This is the first disorganized teacher that my daughter has ever had. She keeps asking my daughter for papers or forms that we already handed in and then finding them later. She misplaced my daughter's school picture money (and found later) and on picture day stressed my daughter out for nothing. I hope they allowed her to sit for the individual pics as well as the group shot. K was reprimanded for not being organized for class even thought the bus was late (behavioriol problems on the bus) and she barely had time to hang up her sweater before the bell rang. She didn't have time to hand in her homework etc... My daughter just "sucked it up" rather than advocate for herself. I'm so glad that it is the weekend. This child is stressed out!!! Many of the kids are stressed out, not only the kids with ADHD or LD. K hangs out with bright/responsible kids as and they are either angry or in tears adjusting to the new level of responsibility and confusion. It's like they have to be responsible for themselves and the teacher. I just have to hope that the teacher is having a rough couple of weeks and hasn't adjusted herself to school yet. She is suppose to be the best 3rd grade teacher of the three but she was off last year for breast cancer so she may be a little rusty. We also have Open House next week so I hope that she clues us in to her routines, if there are any, like when the tests are given, when there is Gym, library etc... I'm going to give this another week to give the teacher a chance, figure out how we can self-help, and figure out what issues need teacher-involvement.  Terry |
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Post by d on Sept 24, 2004 10:13:25 GMT -5
Shoot and you have the school administration from hell too. The open house will give you a major opportunity for information. Just had open house (first year of middle school!) for my ADHDer with learning differences so met all the teachers (9 periods!!!). From what dd told me and getting to meet the teachers, I got the lay of the land so that made me feel much better when I saw what I was working with.
Hang on for the ride if your fears are realized. We'll help as much as we can here.
This will NOT make you feel better but you should realize this and act accordingly. My non-ADHDer with zero school issues (teacher's dream btw) had major stress with the 3rd grade teacher from hell. All 3 of the classified kids in the class of 24 had it much worse than my non-ADHDer. I know for a fact 2 of the 3 had an ADHD dx and I suspect the 3rd did too but that was unconfirmed. Those classified kids regressed big time in all ways. The onr girl with ADHD & learning differences developed serious anxiety & depression and was further behind academically (I'm friends with her mother). They wanted to put her on ADHD meds but could not until the anxiety & depression was under control - it had become that bad. The boys were a handful at the beginning of the year, by the end they were stigmatized and completely out of control. As for the other kids, many developed behavioral problems.
This teacher was a permanent sub for 6 mos. The school admin spent most of their time handling angry parents. By May the principal admitted that the teacher would not be asked back - duh which I knew since she didn't fit into their mold of fab teachers. Great, so you took care of your own problem by not having to deal with unhappy parents. I went after them with that's fine, life happens, mistakes happen. BUT NOW WHAT CONCRETE PLANS HAVE YOU PUT IN PLACE TO MAKE IT UP TO EACH AND EVERYONE OF THOSE KIDS in 4th grade - both academically and fuzzy warm positive learning environments.
Just keep your wits about you, act immediately and don't let them mollify you into "waiting" or not taking action. Action can be not so frontal as I usually am and just as effective. Months later I regret more not being as vocal as I usually am last school year. At the time I figured they heard enough from me with older dd so was quieter than usual. Had it been my older dd in that class, I would've been hysterical bc I saw what happened to those kids. I should've been more vocal for all the kids' sakes. So now I guilt about other people's kids in addition to my own hefty mom guilt.
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Post by eaccae on Sept 24, 2004 10:59:37 GMT -5
Oh, Terry!!! You have the teacher DS had last year for 3rd grad. She was disorganized - as much as DS but, well, she was the TEACHER! We NEVER knew when the spelling tests were and we never got them back - so we had no idea if our kids were passing, not passing, doing well . . . I received many confidential things for OTHER parents (as did other parents) . . . after Christmas the teacher FINALLY started letting us know when the spelling tests were and started sending them home. This is what was typical, I received a spelling test back in March with DS's name on it - everything is his handwriting with a message from the teacher, "Great Job, Dave!! Keep studying!!" - Who is Dave? DS's name begins with "A"!!! We had meeting after meeting after meeting - she would sit in the meetings and agree with the principal to implement certain "nonofficial" accomodations - but would never follow through. When I wrote her notes - she would respond at least 2 weeks later and would always refer to a different day or week than I had written about. She insisted on assigning homework first thing in the morning but it had to be done by the bell because she had group at that time. Of course DS's bus would get there a couple of minutes before the bell so he had just enough time to get his stuff organized - and with his organizational problems and his dysgraphia there wasn't enough time for him to write the assignments down. He often came home with homework that even I couldn't figure out what to do - or no homework at all and when I would call other parents - they were as clueless as I - or - they had something completely different leading to mass confusion. There was one other adhd boy in his class that I knew of and the two of them had just such a hard time - unecessarily hard - (although they both at least learned what they needed to know academically)! Luckily DS doesn't suffer from anxiety but the other boy does and he had a high anxiety year. Even the nonadhd or ld children were having difficulties.  is exactly how I felt last year! I was banging my head against a brick wall because I couldn't get through to anyone, the teacher was incapable of getting it together . . . that is one of the main resasons why I was ready to go to the school board if I didn't get the 504 this year. I wanted that legal leg to stand on because if I had one more teacher like that . . . Like D said - not to scare you - but you may have to be on top of the school all year long! Good luck and keep us posted. I wish I had advice for you but nothing worked for me . . . |
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Post by TerryB on Sept 24, 2004 16:58:12 GMT -5
As it turns out we have to talk to the teacher immediately. My daughter is in tears again today. This time she informed us that she has been getting the teacher angry for not responding fast enough to change from one activity to another. My daughter thinks that she is "concentrating so hard" on one thing that she doesn't hear the teacher. Sounds like hyperfocusing to me. She has tried to advocate for herself but she says the teacher doesn't understand. She says the teacher thinks she is one of the "BAD" kids. Well, this is one thing that I know, she is not a bad kid. She wants to practicing doing what the teacher wants at home. It breaks my heart. She even made up a set of behavioral color cards, you know, each color represents various levels of poor behavior. Negative attention won't work. If she knew how to keep an ear out for the teacher's voice, she would. K has already composed a letter to the teacher and I will send one of my own along with it. I want a conference ASAP.
Terry
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Post by d on Sept 24, 2004 18:33:44 GMT -5
Those color cards should be banned. So sorry to hear. I hate hearing things like that.  This teacher doesn't "get it" at all. |
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Post by swmom on Sept 24, 2004 19:51:16 GMT -5
TerryB -
That's an awful lot of homework for third grade. Too much really. I would speak up about that, tell the principal. The reason teachers give homework is to reinforce what has been taught in school. Perhaps there needs to be a little more teaching so more homework isn't needed, eh?
Also, we had serious struggles with homework, a daily gnashing of teeth, etc. Then, we got on the right medication in the right amount, given at the right time of day. Haven't had a problem since.
Good luck to you. I know how frustrating that is. Ugh.
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Post by TerryB on Sept 25, 2004 5:53:20 GMT -5
This might be our year for medication. It frustrates me that K did so well last year with her teacher being understanding. I'm not sure if medication can help with her focusing so deeply though. and being able to "hear" the teacher while she's concentrating on something else.
Terry
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 25, 2004 8:50:28 GMT -5
This might be our year for medication. It frustrates me that K did so well last year with her teacher being understanding. I'm not sure if medication can help with her focusing so deeply though. and being able to "hear" the teacher while she's concentrating on something else. Terry Terry, talk to the teacher and explain what the issues are and what accomodations are needed - medication or not, accomodations are going to be needed. It does not take too much time for the teacher to repeat herself or to check your daughter for understanding. My son's teacher does this for him because he understands that the child needs it (He is ADD/Inattentive and APD-Tolerance Fading Memory and is on meds). They are not doing this on purpose to P. O. the teacher. If your child needs the meds, then consider it but don't feel pushed to do it because a teacher refuses to help. Has your daughter been officially dxed as ADD? You might have to call an IEP meeting and insists on accomodations under OHI or 504 now. It gets harder when a child move on to higher grades because the need to focus and the responsibilities increases. So you may also be seeing that the ADD is interfering more now, THEN maybe it is time to consider meds. But see if accomodations is done as well. |
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Post by eaccae on Sept 25, 2004 9:02:03 GMT -5
Terry - DS is on meds and helps his focusing by 110%!! BUT - meds or no meds - it didn't help DS when his teacher was so disorganized!!! So do NOT feel pushed into medication because of the teacher. It may be that it is time - but weigh all the pros and cons - like the homework after school that you are doing with her - all of those things as well - because although the meds may help her focus better I'm not sure it will help with the teacher at all. Perhaps you should start with trying to get a 504 in place and some accomodations and see if that helps the situation! (I am not trying to talk you out of meds because they have been a life saver for DS but I don't want you to be talked into them because of a terrible teacher!)
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Post by d on Sept 25, 2004 20:52:21 GMT -5
eaccae, you are brilliant  |
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Post by TerryB on Sept 26, 2004 7:26:10 GMT -5
eaccae,
I couldn't get meds fast if I wanted to because the Ped is against it last I talked to him (he's smart with ADHD.) He's been real helpful with tools to manage ADHD but I think he feels that my daughter can compensate Before this new teacher.) I think that I need the full Neuro-psych. eval before anything else. I'm also hoping that the teacher's disorganization will improve as the year goes on. Teachers get dumped on in the beginning of the year. I have a letter for K to take to school tomorrow AM so that maybe the teacher can cool it on the public humilliation cards until we figure this out.
Terry
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Post by jwm on Sept 26, 2004 7:44:01 GMT -5
Hi Terry,
My inattentive 10yr old son is in 5th grade. He has a 504 plan in place. I am the note writer from you know where... If my son has a hard time I do my best to help out. If he still has a hard time i send in a note to the teacher letting her know that my son didnt understand the homework and if she would please go over it with him. So far we have had excellent teachers as far as accomodating him. I would definitely contact the teacher and explain things. If you dont get anywhere, I would demand a team meeting to go over the 504 plan and possibly make some changes. Goodluck. It shouldnt be this way for people!
We shouldnt have to go through so much to get our kids the education that they have a right to have.
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Post by TerryB on Sept 27, 2004 20:09:22 GMT -5
Thanks jwm,
This is definitely not a battle that my daughter can handle from a teacher that "accepts no excuses." K will be right there when I talk with the teacher. I don't know if that is advisable but I just can't see talking behind her back. She is part of the solution so I need her to give her viewpoint.
While typing this post the teacher called to set up a meeting. She got my letter today. SHE NOW GETS IT! She stated that she "now" believes that K can't focus properly. I didn't ask her if she would still be making her change her card. I didn't say "I warned you". The teacher told me to tell K tomorrow before she comes to school that she needs to be easy on herself because she (the teacher) knows that she is not a "bad" girl; she is a "sweet" girl. I hope this will help until I can get K worked up.
Terry
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Post by Mayleng on Sept 27, 2004 20:19:42 GMT -5
That's good news, at least the teacher is receptive and not negative.  with the meeting. |
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Post by TerryB on Sept 30, 2004 19:33:18 GMT -5
More good news. My husband and I met with the psychologist already. We had an hour long discussion and have scheduled testing to start next Tuesday.
Terry
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Post by d on Sept 30, 2004 20:05:05 GMT -5
fcr*ssing Good Terry. I hope you felt confident in the psych fcr*ssing
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is exactly how I felt last year! I was banging my head against a brick wall because I couldn't get through to anyone, the teacher was incapable of getting it together . . . that is one of the main resasons why I was ready to go to the school board if I didn't get the 504 this year. I wanted that legal leg to stand on because if I had one more teacher like that . . . Like D said - not to scare you - but you may have to be on top of the school all year long!
with the meeting.