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Post by LurkNoMore on Apr 28, 2004 12:39:37 GMT -5
Most of you know the struggles that we have been going through lately...son, C, age 10 (4th grade) diagnosed ADHD...we had our pre-meeting with the school a couple of weeks ago (to lay the foundation of our annual IEP review)...school's recommendation is that he goes to the other elementary school in our district to a self-contained classroom. I just got off the phone with the principal (2nd time in 2 weeks...before this I have never said more than a few words to the woman in the 6 years my kids have been in the school). C was supposed to write an essay this morning (after his time with the aide was up)...he sat from 10:50 to 11:25 without writing anything on his paper (per them, he was curled up in a ball sucking on his fingers instead of working...I have never seen my kid curled up in a ball unless he was in pain - staring our the window, chewing on his fingers maybe, not rolled up in a ball)...he went to music and the teacher went in to talk to the principal. After music, the principal spoke to C and got really no response. She let him go to lunch (not sure if he stayed or brought it back to her office) and is "still having trouble working". She also mentioned that the teacher thinks he is starting to lie (again, I know my kid, he doesn't lie...said he told the teacher he was using his notes, yet the notes weren't out - that one might be possible, also that the teacher doesn't feel that all of the notes are getting home - according to the teacher, his last spelling test -atrocious handwriting - I was supposed to sign and return...the only note that I saw about the spelling test was to show it to the doctor on Monday when we went...also, they said they caught him changing a time on one of the notes...I have EVERY note that she sent home, and as far as I know, I have received them all...I don't remember anything showing him changing anything...also, I can tell his handwriting from hers!)...Sorry to be rambling...I am just so upset and frustrated (and have a meeting to go to in 5 minutes... ) We just feel that they are "pulling out the big guns" to reinforce the fact that it is in his best interests to put him in the self-contained. I don't know what more we can do for now...I wrote the teacher a note today and told her that we have an appointment scheduled for next Tuesday (and wanting to confirm that it doesn't conflict with the state math testing that will be going on, since we want C to go with us and give us his input)... Hubby is so mad, he is putting a call into the resource room teacher since he feels she is the one "behind all of this"...making our lives and C's miserable until we conform to their decision. I'm trying to go about this decision with an open mind, BUT they are making it really hard... Should we call a lawyer, an advocate, the head of CSE? help, I'm at my wits end. thanks for listening and caring!
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Post by JV on Apr 28, 2004 13:23:20 GMT -5
Lurk, I would get a lawyer involved or at the very least get an advocate involved. Go to your district office for your school, find out who hadles special ed, get them involved, let them know how you are being pushed to make evaluations, and how they want to send your son into a self-contained classroom, and there is no support from a qualified psyciatrist at this point. All schools have to follow a compliance on how they treat both student and parents in this matter. Your school seems to want you to go in a direction that you are not sure of yet. Is C's dr. calling the school? Making any good observations of C? If your instinct is to just stop, then do just that. Tell them to back off, and then regroup yourself. Schools can make parents a wreck. Even if at the end of this year, this school does treat you and C right, I would look into going to another school anyway. Just for the simple fact they have been such a problem. Is there another public school that you can enroll in? Maybe get to know the pricipal before enrollment, and what they have in place for our children?
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Post by Mayleng on Apr 28, 2004 13:31:12 GMT -5
Yes, you need an advocate to help you. Don't let the school pressure you into doing something you are not sure of. Take your time and find out the facts and what your child needs. It should be what is best for the child not what is best for the school.
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Post by angel on Apr 28, 2004 13:45:44 GMT -5
Lurk,
I totally agree. Do not make any hasty decisions. Do your research. You know.... I taught in an very rough school and the least of my worries were a child rolled up in their seat!! They need to go teach in a school where you are worried about bodily harm! I am sorry that you are going through this.
After reading about all of the pressures that schools are putting on parents, I am floored!! Maybe I live in an area where adhd is more common. ?? What is up with all of these wimpy schools? I am also wondering why the schools are pushing for action right at the end of the school year? All of the kids are out of their heads at this time!
angel
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Post by LurkNoMore on Apr 28, 2004 14:10:25 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the responses...I am still really angry and upset...not something that is good for the work environment!
The school is pushing for placement for next year, not this year...just making our lives a living hell until then...I think I will call over to the head of Special Ed. to let him know what is going on (since he is in the district office, I am sure he does not always know what is going on day to day at the schools).
I think part of our problem is we are in an "elite" school district...there are times I wish we hadn't moved from the city school district we were in (my former neighbor's daughter has some of the same types of issues, but no firm diagnosis...she is in K, this year...when my friend expressed concern about her daughter for 1st grade...the teacher told her not to worry, there are kids with much worse issues in the class)...I think our school "handles" the special ed kids by sending them to self-contained...
I am most angry at the teacher...telling the principal different things than she is telling me. Instead of working with us, I feel she is working against us...When I chaperone the class trip, she will be getting an earful from me!!!
I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS YEAR TO BE OVER!!!!
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Post by dfp on Apr 28, 2004 20:31:42 GMT -5
Lurk, You're going through an awful time. Sometimes people can be so ratty. A protection you can put in place is at your next IEP meeting include wording about how home/school communication should be handled so that both parties feel their information has been conveyed appropriately. This is language that should be in an IEP no matter where you are-- it's protection for both sides. Don't be surprised if you go over your local school's jurisdiction and get no satisfaction. These are not bad people, it's just that they have way too few resources to do what they do, so everyone who works for the school district is trained to try to go the least expensive route, i.e. sending your son to the self-contained classroom. But it's not the law and you do not have to do what they suggest. IDEA '97 says that your child must be placed in the Least Restrictive Environment that's determined by the child's IEP team. "LRE" requires that to the maximum extent appropriate, students with disabilities should be educated with non-disabled peers in general education classrooms. The WHOLE committee must decide a child is not able to receive meaningful instruction in the general education classroom or resource classroom. And yes, while the school has members on that team, you can have anyone you want too. That means pediatricians, psychiatrists, advocates, neighbors, WHOEVER you think understands your child and knows what's best for them. And if you can get them to write letters saying why they think he is able to receive meaningful instruction in a typical classroom, that's more ammunition on your side. Do you have your child's reports from previous years? Do they reflect that your child is unable to "receive meaningful instruction" in the classrooms offered by the school? If you haven't had a need to communicate with the principal up until now, it does not seem that the in-class problems your son has had have been that disruptive to HIS education. If you feel like the school has failed to evaluate your child appropriately, it is within your rights to call for a better evaluation. This link describes it better than I can: www.naspcenter.org/teachers/IDEA_iee.htmlI'm sorry you and a bunch of other families are going through this. I just hope you know that you and your son DO have rights too, and you don't HAVE to do what the school is saying. But I'm a parent too, and I know how awful it is when the school gangs up on you. Been there... So if you do know of an advocate or a disability information center of something, do call them up. They can offer valuable support. Just having them on your team sometimes works wonders with the school. Hang in there. dfp
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Post by MomX2 on Apr 29, 2004 8:10:16 GMT -5
Does your school's teachers have E-mail or phones in their classroom? Our school has both in every classroom. If they're concerned the notes aren't getting home they should send you an E-mail or call you. They can explain the situation or tell you to look for the note and what's in it. Does he have a special folder for these notes and can the teacher make sure the notes go in these?
That's just one issue I know but there is no need to start accusing the child of lying. Maybe he is trying to be deceptive at times because he's embarrassed, who knows. The point is that if this is a problem they need to do something differently. There is big difference between complaining and problem solving. If there is a problem because your child isn't ready to handle these responsibilities yet then the things need to be done differently.
Also are you sure the teacher knows what ADHD is? Teachers may be basing their beliefs on outdated information or even by what they've seen on TV. Research about ADHD is ongoing and information is constantly changing. The teachers need to be up-to-date on this or they're going to make many mistakes in dealing with your child.
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Post by Dakotah on Apr 29, 2004 8:43:08 GMT -5
This goes along the lines of not understanding ADHD. We have told my MIL 1,000 times that ADHD in itself is only problems with paying attention with some hyperactivity. I know it really isn't this simple but we want to make it this simple for her so she understands that our son's OTHER issues are NOT ADHD. To make a long story short she was telling us how my husband's cousin had a problem with his tummy and they thought it was from ADHD!!!!! (It was kindney stones) He's never even been thought of to have ADHD, this is her diagnosis. I told her AGAIN my simple discription of ADHD and that it has NOTHING to do with tummy problems!!!!! It's like saying you have sunburn from being up too late. Some people just don't get it no matter how hard you try to explain it to them.
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Post by willoweezie on Apr 29, 2004 9:02:46 GMT -5
Dakotah, I hear where you are coming from. There are people you have to simplify it for. Then there are those that its just not worth educating because they have never been where we are and will not buy the whole concept (the nonbelievers). Our issue at school is that they don't feel my daughter HAS ADHD. I can't tell you how many times I have heard at IEP meetings and other times that she does not behave the way a "typical" ADHD child does! Ummm....yeah. Just look at this board and see how each and every child has different issues revolving around the basic core symptoms. Yes, there may be comorbities, and temperament plays a part, but puhlease! To this day I regret signing the IEP with Emotional Disability emblazoned across it! Yes, my daughter does have emotional/behavioral problems, but that doesn't mean her ADHD doesn't exist or isn't one of the reasons this is so. If I had known more I would have pushed for OHI for the ADHD or mulitple disabilities for that and (possible) LD, anxiety disorders etc. As it stands now, she is defined by being ED (as if there is no reason for it) not by the disabilities that are causing her to struggle. Blech Willow
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Post by Mayleng on Apr 29, 2004 9:08:46 GMT -5
Willow, you might have already looked into it but in case you haven't (and because I don't know all the symptoms your daughter has), have you looked into Childhood Onset Bipolar?
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Post by willoweezie on Apr 29, 2004 9:33:16 GMT -5
MAyleng,
We have given bipolar some consideration, but she doesn't really fit the criteria on observation. Her psychiatrist did take it into consideration based on what the school has reported. The thing is, she is a really different kid outside of school. Outside school she is pretty much a "typical" ADHDer. As he puts it, for some reason, school is a "toxic" environment for her. We're leaning toward anxiety disorder (social, performance, not sure what) and there is the sensory issues too which have not been addressed or even assessed. Most people I have talked to about the school issue who know S outside of school are really amazed, because they just do not see her behaving the way she does at school. Her social skills with kids outside school are wonderful, she doesn't have rages (used to tantrum alot, but has gotten much much better), she is typically a high-energy, easily distracted, needs LOTS of reminders, climbing, jumping, excitable kid.
I am going to switch over to my other post to update what's going on this week at school.
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Post by Mayleng on Apr 29, 2004 9:36:41 GMT -5
OK, does she have an LD (not ED), did they evaluate for a learning disability which might be causing the anxiety. How is she doing academically?
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Post by Dakotah on Apr 29, 2004 9:39:40 GMT -5
LurkNoMore good luck! Get an ADVOCATE! Willow if I had a dime for everyone who says my son seems typical I'd be rich. The meds. mask the hyperness and the OCD and SID symptoms aren't noticable until you spend time with him. I remember telling our psycho I needed some kind of support group to deal with all of this. He said you'll never find the right one because my son isn't just ADHD or OCD or SID and he doesn't know of anything in the area that would fit my needs. By the way, I found a support group that fits my needs right here (I like that on this board you can be totally honest and not worry about running into anyone at the store who knows your child's whole story. There is a sense of privacy being an unknown face in the crowd.) If you look at everyone on this board there aren't too many here with just ADHD. Maybe there is more to ADHD than we think. Maybe sensory issues are really a possible characteristic of ADHD and not a separate diagnosis. You don't have to have EVERY characteristic of a disorder to have it right? So some ADHDers may have sensory issues and others may not but it is still one in the same? Also- we went through the whole ED vs. OHI. Can you switch it?
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Post by LurkNoMore on Apr 29, 2004 9:49:56 GMT -5
thanks again for everyone's kind words and advice...this board is a godsend!
My hubby spoke to the special ed teacher yesterday afternoon (he was fuming after the call from the principal...he said he was glad he worked off some steam at the gym before he talked to her b/c he was able to get his point across calmly). He told her the reason he called her specifically is because she knows C the best and has been working with him the longest. They cleared the air on some points...she said the school is not working against us to get us to send C to the self-containeds but they are frustrated with how this year is going. They talked for about a half hour...something he said must have hit home, because she called us again at home last night (9pm) to talk some more and see if we had any suggestions to get C to do things independently...hubby's response was if we knew what to do, we would have told them a long time ago...The only suggestion I could come up with (not sure if it will work, but they will try it today) is to give him 5 chances (for each assignment) and have a visual on his desk...as of last night, we hadn't come up with what the consequence would be if he used up his chances. The odd thing is last few weeks the teacher had been marking the number of times she had to ask him to write his homework in his planner (one day was 9 times). At home, we verbally went through his morning routine and explained how happy it would make Mrs. B. if she didn't have to tell him to write down his homework (since we've talked about it, there has been only one day where she had to ask him to write down his homework!)...now if only we could solve all of the other problems so easily! I'll let you know how the 5 chances works out.
On another note, C went for his first math tutoring session yesterday afternoon (at the home of one of the aides from school). He was really excited to go (brought his math homework with him)...when I went to pick him up at the end of the hour, he was still excited (got a sticker and a glow in the dark star for his ceiling)...he kept telling his sister (6th grade, not ADHD) that SHE needed a math tutor too because when she was doing her math homework, she would ask me questions. It was great to see him so excited about something school related...I hope this helps build up his confidence in math...then we can move on to other areas! The nice thing since the tutor works at the school, she contacted Mrs. B. to get input from her on where C's weaknesses are...
So in the end, my day did get better...today, the slate was wiped clean and we're hoping to get a better report! The pharmacy should have the prescription of Ritalin, so we can start with that tomorrow...
Keeping my fingers crossed that things get better for ALL of us!
;D
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Post by willoweezie on Apr 29, 2004 12:33:49 GMT -5
Mayleng, to answer your question about LDs... hmm. She has had educational testing done by the school (Woodcock Johnson and off the top of my head I don't know what else) Her math scores were a good 15 to 30 points below her various verbal scores on the W-J test (though in the average range). When I brought up potential LDs at the last IEP, my "favorite" vice principal spent the next 5 mintues of the meeting flipping through her file and saying things like "this 'low' score is a 9... that's not LOW" and "she doesn't qualify for LD assistance, because the problems can be explained by other factors" (coughEMOTIONALDISABILITYcough) oooh, I really don't like that woman! SHe had the nerve to say "I feel we have done REALLY HEROIC things for S this year!" If there was ever a reason for me to want to get physically violent towards someone... So, maybe I shouldn't have brought up the psych. reports about sensory processing problems and being neurologically disjointed etc. at that exact moment, but I was just sharing something the psychiatrist had said to me the night before. In a way, I'm glad to be dealing with the woman from the Special Education office instead of these administrators. If I could find a good private school (and could afford it) I would think hard about putting S there next year. This whole thing has been horrendous. I'm with you, Lurk... I hope things get better for ALL of us!
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Post by Mayleng on Apr 29, 2004 13:06:04 GMT -5
Willow, write a letter to the school requesting for a full education evaluation. When was the last one done? If it was recent, tell them you disagree with their evaluation and you want an Independent Evaluation done by a NeuroPyschologist. The fact that her "emotional" problems are only in school is a BIG RED FLAG something is wrong there. You don't have to give reason's why you disagree with their eval, just that you do and they will have to pay for the Independent Eval, if they refuse they will have to write to you and tell you why. Do you have a copy of the eval the school did? Did they do a cognitive eval (IQ) too. Normally, WJ III is for academics and there should be one for IQ, Speech and Language, and OT. If you have the results, post those scores at www.schwarblearning.org (the standard score and Percentile scores) and the moms there will tell you if there is an LD.
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Post by willoweezie on Apr 29, 2004 13:21:53 GMT -5
Thanks Mayleng...
no they didn't do IQ, but the WISC was done by a psychologist (the crackpot) at my expense. No OT eval was done, I know that for sure. Not sure about speech & language, I got copies of all the testing done and I don't remember seeing anything on that. I have them at home, but all I remember at this moment is the Woodcock Johnson.
I hear what you are saying about her problems only revolving around school... I have been saying this for a long time now. They said at the last meeting that her emotional problems are so much, they can't begin to address anything else. Maybe I'm looking at this from a different perspective, but isn't that like putting a bandaid on a wound that needs a tourneqet (sp?) The school psychologist (who is only there infrequently) also said when I brought up the sensory/LD question that her problems are so severe they couldn't be due to sensory issues. I liked this woman who I happened to meet at sage's kindergarten (different school) but I don't really feel she's qualified to say that, psychologist or not.
So, I just write and request a full educational assessment or evaluation? What if they say they already did one (since they did do some testing)?
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Post by Mayleng on Apr 29, 2004 14:08:10 GMT -5
Willow, when was the last time they did one? Check on that, when was the IQ one done by the Quack?
You have to find the cause of the emotional problems in school, and LDs would cause that. If she is not showing it in any other places, than something else is going on. How is she doing academically?
If the school did just the academic eval, then it is not a complete evaluation. If they did the academic eval 2 years ago then ask them to do a full eval which will include academic, Cognitive, OT an S&L., also a functional Behavorial eval. If they say they already did the WJ, tell them it is not complete and you disagree with it and want an independent Private EVal done by a qualified Neuropsych. Then find a really good Neuropysch. That is important.
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Post by jwm on May 3, 2004 18:03:37 GMT -5
Hi lurknomore , a good friend of mine was having an awful time with her son at school. They told her this and that. She didnt agree they still told her this and that. She got an advocate and POOF!! They were not telling her "this and that" anymore. Moral to this story... your child has rights but no one has the right to "make" you, parent do anything. People forget that us parents know quite a bit about our children...hmmmmm why would that be? Gee because we live each and every day jumping over the ADHD and LD hurdles. When these kids are humiliated, we hug them. When these kids feel that they are not worthy... here we are again hugging and comforting. When they just cant get past question 1 on their homework...here we are standing there helping them see a different way (pulling our hair out at the same time). Now where are these teachers and people who "know whats best" for our children.... at their own home. Away from the pain, away from the stress, frustration, and low self esteem that our children are dealing with. My advice... definitely get an advocate! More importantly... know we are here for you. ;D
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Post by LurkNoMore on May 3, 2004 21:31:37 GMT -5
Thanks JWM! I needed to hear that...
We go for a tour (w/C) of the self-contained classroom tomorrow morning...I'll post in the afternoon to let you know what all of us thought of it.
Some (semi) good news...our IEP meeting has been scheduled for 6/1...so we have most of this month to make our decision re: Placement!
;D
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Post by willoweezie on May 4, 2004 8:31:45 GMT -5
Mayleng, the school did their evaluations (including the WJ) back in the fall/winter. The WISC was done around the same time by the outside psychologist. We did a functional behavior analysis I think in February, and interestingly enough, one of the behaviors on it was listed as having "sensory" causes. When we did it though, it was basically just the IEP people and me sitting around making guesses for why she was doing certain things, and I have done some more research on FBA and BIPs and they should be more objective to be effective... i.e. look at & change the environment and see how many times a certain behavior occurs, in order to clarify what the cause of the behavior is. Our behavior intervention plan was pretty much a brainstrorming session too... At times I think the team goes through the motions but then they say, well, what we have tried to do isn't working... (ok, i'm rambling) Sage did much much better last week, if I can judge it by the daily report sheets that are coming home. The ED resource is supposed to let me know about an OT evaluation too. Sort of off the subject, but Sage started a drama therapy group yesterday and it was sort of nice to have some parents to talk with in person who are having the same sort of challenges as we all are. Even though we've been doing individual therapy for a long time, I have never sat in a waiting room with other moms who have the same questions or similar issues. I'll take all the support and commiseration I can get!
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Post by Mayleng on May 4, 2004 8:46:24 GMT -5
Mayleng, the school did their evaluations (including the WJ) back in the fall/winter. The WISC was done around the same time by the outside psychologist. We did a functional behavior analysis I think in February, and interestingly enough, one of the behaviors on it was listed as having "sensory" causes. When we did it though, it was basically just the IEP people and me sitting around making guesses for why she was doing certain things, and I have done some more research on FBA and BIPs and they should be more objective to be effective... i.e. look at & change the environment and see how many times a certain behavior occurs, in order to clarify what the cause of the behavior is. Our behavior intervention plan was pretty much a brainstrorming session too... At times I think the team goes through the motions but then they say, well, what we have tried to do isn't working... (ok, i'm rambling) Sage did much much better last week, if I can judge it by the daily report sheets that are coming home. The ED resource is supposed to let me know about an OT evaluation too. Sort of off the subject, but Sage started a drama therapy group yesterday and it was sort of nice to have some parents to talk with in person who are having the same sort of challenges as we all are. Even though we've been doing individual therapy for a long time, I have never sat in a waiting room with other moms who have the same questions or similar issues. I'll take all the support and commiseration I can get! Since all the evals were done last Fall/winter 2003? You could still tell the school you disagree with the eval, and want and IEE - Individual Educational Evaluation done by a Private Neuropsych (the school should pay for this). It is important that you find a really good Neuropsych, talk to the Parents of the Drama Therapy group and see if they have a recommendation. You need to get to the bottom of what is going on so you can get a handle on it. If it is sensory issues, you should get OT therapy which helps tremendously. There is no medication for SI. One of my good friend's daughter had SI, through OT therapy she has overcome it and is leading a normal life. She used to freak out on little things. You need an OT who is familiar with it. Is there an Easter Seals near you? They did the OT eval for my friend's daughter.
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Post by willoweezie on May 4, 2004 9:10:26 GMT -5
Mayleng, we do have an Easter Seals in the area. Thanks for the info, I will look into it! One of the moms at the therapy group yesterday said they thought her son had SI as well. At the time, I didn't think to ask her if they had an eval. done at school or elsewhere. I will definitely try to get some more info from her next week too.
As for telling the school I disagree... I guess I'm disagreeing with the ED designation, right? To my way of thinking they are trying to address her emotional problems without trying to determine what may be the cause. I don't have to tell them why I disagree, though, right? I just say that I want an IEE done? Who would you send this letter to?
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Post by Mayleng on May 4, 2004 13:41:18 GMT -5
Mayleng, we do have an Easter Seals in the area. Thanks for the info, I will look into it! One of the moms at the therapy group yesterday said they thought her son had SI as well. At the time, I didn't think to ask her if they had an eval. done at school or elsewhere. I will definitely try to get some more info from her next week too. As for telling the school I disagree... I guess I'm disagreeing with the ED designation, right? To my way of thinking they are trying to address her emotional problems without trying to determine what may be the cause. I don't have to tell them why I disagree, though, right? I just say that I want an IEE done? Who would you send this letter to? You write to the Director of Special Ed, and say you do not agree with their evaluation (not designation, evaluation) and would like to request an IEE - Independent Education Evaluation. You don't have to say why you disagree, just that you do. If pushed, then say they did not do a full eval and that you think there is probably an LD involved and they are not addressing that issue and you disagree with the ED label. But you really are under no obligation to give any reason. If they refuse they will have to give you their reason for refusal in writing. PS. OT really don't know how to evaluate for Sensory Integration Dysfunction. Go to Easter Seals. Good Luck
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