Socialization and School

[MomX2]

Some of you may have noticed by now that I post thinking questions. That is, I'm not looking for a specific answer even though I like to hear your thoughts on the subject. Rather I post these for others to consider the possibility and how it may be affecting their child or another child. This is one of those types of questions.

Have any of you ever noticed that your child, diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, finds it easier to make friends outside of the school system than in school?

This is my reason for asking. I've mentioned before that I believe I have mild to moderate problems with ADHD myself. Trying to make a long story shorter, I believe that my 3rd grade, 5th grade and my 6th grade math teacher had a strong dislike for me, possibly because of my ADHD tendencies or failure to be a straight A student (my math teacher seemed to be especially prejudice against everyone she judged to be stupid). They singled me out more than other teachers and didn't have a problem with letting the class know how stupid they thought I was (never mind that many of my grades were actually above average or even perfect). Other teachers also put me in situations where I was unable to answer quickly enough making the other kids in the class well aware of this. I strongly feel that between the teachers who were intentionally emotionally abusive toward me influencing kids in the class, the ones who accidently put me in difficult situations which brought further attention to what the kids has already learned from the abusive teachers and most of the other teachers who failed to notice I even existed (never gave me credit for good work so the other kids could hear about it) the teachers caused a great deal of harm to me. They did this by influencing what kind of person the other kids thought I was. I suspect this caused as much or more damage to my ability to socialize with other kids in my school than any behaviors caused by ADHD. I had to work very hard at making friends. Many of the other kids, particularly in my 5th grade class which was a new school, had a lot in common with me but for several years they were too busy avoiding me to realize this. I could also mention that my 5th grade teacher was even more abusive to one of the boys in the class who may well have had ADHD by his behavior. She not only singled him out and let us know what a bad kid he was but she also physically punished him by frequently whacking him with a wooden paddle. We all knew to stay away from him because he was a "bad kid". She taught us that.

Why do I think this? Because I was able to make several good friends outside of my school. Those who lived in another town and I knew through relatives for instance. Those other kids never had much of a negative opinion of me because there was never an adult to point out how stupid I was to them. Not only that but they did know how creative I was through play. I never had to prove to them that I could memorize 9 X 8 so they didn't have any reasons to doubt me.

This isn't meant to be about blame but about understanding. If your child's self-image is harmed or destroyed in the minds of other children while they're still in grade school and they have to spend 12 years of their life in the same school system, what chance do they have? Teachers still do this on a daily basis with kids. My kids can give me a list of who the "stupid kids" and the "lazy kids" in the class are. I've tried to avoid this scenario with my own kids by working closely with their teachers and giving them reasons to have a positive attitude toward my child. Still I suspect my daughter is receiving a lot of negative messages from adults at school because she comes home and repeats this stuff to me. They seem to be planting the seeds of doubt about herself in her mind. I would guess that other adults could have the same effect on a child as well. The playground attendants, caregivers or possibly even parents or grandparents could affect the way other children think of your child.

To be fair to teachers, I had several who tried to be very supportive of me. Some just thought I needed to try harder. That was only a partial truth. Their support meant a lot to me though because at least they cared and believed in me. Sometimes they actually helped other kids see me in a more realistic way with more acceptance for who I am. I would give them all a raise in pay and an A+ for attitude if I could because they were the best.

[Shandawn]

No, I had never thought of that. Your questions do make me think though, & my daughter(ADD-3rd grade)
has a lot of friends in school. Shes very much the "tom boy" type & hangs a lot with the boys who like the same sort of stuff. I put her in brownies to teach her positive interaction with girls & she loves it! I'm wondering if the difference(socially) with my daughter may lie soley in the fact that she goes to a Lutheran school instead of public. They talk about & stress friendship, caring,doing good deeds for others ,etc. Now that you've brought up the subject, I wonder if We'll see a difference in social interactions between kids in different types of schools. Anyway, Thanks for keeping our brains active! ;D

[MomX2]

My daughter also has a lot of friends and is typically very outgoing. I was considered a shy/quiet child in grade school and most teachers liked me for that reason (I just wasn't a trouble-maker and my grades were good enough). Only a few teachers from K through 12 actually singled me out but my feeling is those few harmed me in a worse way than I've ever been harmed by anyone else in my entire life. The fact that I can't get the way they treated me out of my mind many years after I graduated and even after achieving success tells me how much of an affect they had on me. Knowing that they taught other kids to dislike me is hurtful. My behavior may have been annoying to other kids at times but outside of adult influence most of those kids accepted me as a friend anyway. Outside of adult influence they usually let me know if they didn't like something I was doing and I often learned to change that behavior. Worst of all because I wasn't a teacher's favorite the kids who were didn't want to have much to do with me. I was practically forced to play stupid and drink alcohol just to be accepted. Otherwise my only choice was not to have any friends in my school system. It's really not easy to play stupid when you know absolutely everything your friends are doing is wrong and only going to harm them (and yourself).

I also don't believe I'm a shy child by nature. In fact, I think my personality is naturally more outgoing like my daughters and that comes out more and more as I get older. As a child I was frequently punished mostly for making mistakes and occasionally for being defiant. I learned not to draw attention to myself for that reason. I was afraid to even attempt to talk to most of my teachers even all the way through high school with few exceptions. The worst part about all this is that one of my parents is a teacher. I don't dislike or blame teachers, only the ones who hurt me. I wasn't hurt because I couldn't make straight A's in school all the time. I was hurt because some teachers blamed me for not being smart enough instead of accepting that I actually had learned a lot and accomplished a lot.

The only reason I'm willing to talk about this at all is because if it helps any other child then it's worth talking about.

[MomX2]

I can see more people are viewing this than responding to it which is fine. I wanted to add some additional information that might be helpful to someone.

There are some indications that a teacher or other caregiver may be intentionally or accidentally (thoughtlessly) abusive toward your child. Kids with ADHD do tend to be at greater risk for both mental and physical abuse as their behavior often irritates adults and can bring on an overly harsh response more often than what other kids experience. Again, most teachers are very good people who would never do this intentionally, but it only takes one or two over 12 years time. A teacher who was abused by their own family can bring the same into a classroom.

A teacher who is being mentally abusive will often exaggerate your child's weaknesses, downplay their strengths and may well sabotage their efforts to improve.

An example of exaggeration would be constant complaints about a child's behavior without a willingness to help change that in a positive way. Constantly complaining the child "isn't trying hard enough" and harshly criticizing written work often. Downplaying a child's strengths may simply be by not acknowledging your child's better grades or qualities at all or very as often as complaining. Or, telling them other kids are doing better and they should try to be more like those other kids.

A specific example of how my 3rd grade teacher sabatoged my own effort to improve was by falsely accusing me of cheating in front of my classmates. I had struggled to memorize multiplication flash cards and usually had to be tested over and over to pass, then I barely was able to pass. With, I believe it was, multiples of 4 I practiced them myself over and over. Then I insisted my parents practice with me. I can actually remember standing in the hallway, in front of the bathroom, insisting my parents do the flashcards with me then and there. At the school the next day the teacher tested me herself and I passed the first test in record time. Instead of congradulating me for doing so well she immediately accused me of cheating and made me take the test over. That's called sabotage. This is just one of the worst examples of the way some teachers treated me. I also was often witness to teachers treating other kids this way. There were other classes where the teachers liked me but disliked different kids in the class for various reasons. The teachers often defined the type of person they thought a student was to the other students and therefore influenced what other kids thought they knew about that person. Sometimes teachers even influence what a parent thinks of their own child in a negative way (or in a positive way as the case may be).

An example of how a teacher could handle the same situation more effectively. Congradulate the child, tell them how well they did and possibly ask for a repeat performance because they did so well.

Or as my daughter's teacher recently did, ask the parent before accusing the child. My daughter's teacher questioned her excellent work recently. However, My husband and I had both supervised my daughter while she was working and were able to confirm she had done every bit of the work and was definately not cheating.

A teacher may treat your child differently in the classroom than the way they relate to you. They may not give you any indication of their dislike for your child. If your child doesn't like the teacher or is afraid of them that may be a clue (not always but sometimes) that something is wrong. What other kids know about your child and how they found out (comments from the teacher?) is another indication of what may really be happening in a classroom.

One last time, I'm not saying this because I want to accuse teachers. I would say be careful with assumptions because no one would want to falsely accuse their child's teacher of wrongdoing if that weren't the case. Just the same as a child would not want to be falsely accused of cheating on their math.

[swmom]

That's an interesting thought. Never really considered it but I always did pretty well in school and wasn't a victim of the abuse you're describing.

The teacher has so much "clout" , if you will, that it makes perfect sense that if he or she doesn't like you, he/she could sway others' opinions.

[theirmom]

I know that it is not uncommon for a teacher to penalize an entire group of children for one child's actions. I see many classrooms divided into "groups" of desks or rows where the entire row is connected. When the children are told to "sit nicely" until their row is called, a teacher often waits for all the children to be sitting perfectly. Every kid in that group knows who the kid is that makes them last to line up for recess, lunch, drinks, etc. Some teachers will even say "I'm waiting for ?". It is subtle and seems harmless, but EVERYONE knows what's going on and the kids can show resentment towards that child. In first grade my son would come home every day and say "We were late for lunch because wouldn't stop talking". How long do you think it took for the entire class to avoid this child so he wouldn't talk to them because they didn't want to be late for lunch? The system stinks, but

[MomX2]

theirmom, my daughter was just telling me today about how she was punished for another kids behavior. The boy behind her kept making noise and the teacher kept looking up and blaming my daughter. If she tried to defend herself saying she didn't do it then she got in even more trouble. Every time the teacher turned around this boy would make noise again. Other kids in the class tried to tell the teacher he was doing it too but she wasn't willing to listen. She ended up putting my daughter's name on the board for punishment and as a warning because of her "bad behavior". Apparently before the class ended the teacher finally realized her mistake and found out who was actually making the noise.

My older child also told me today that his teacher returned a paper to him ungraded. She later told him he was going to be punished and would not get to go to a movie because he didn't turn the paper in. He says he remembers her giving it back to him and it was in the returned homework section of his folder. He believes the teacher forgot to mark it in her gradebook and so believes he never turned the paper in when he actually had turned it in on time. He also told me this is the second time she's done this to him this year. The last time he was able to prove she did it because the paper had a grade written on it but it wasn't marked in her book. Another time he said she handed all the papers back to the kids then said "oops, I forgot to grade those give them back". And finally he says she has done the same to other kids. I don't mean this in a negative way but the way he describes this teacher makes it sound like she has a problem with ADHD. He hasn't really liked being in her class because he feels her behavior is kind of immature and childish and it comes across in the way she teaches. At least that has been his assessment of her the entire year. Also, he has no history of forgetting to turn in papers in any class as far as I know.

Both of my kids get so extremely frustrated because they feel they aren't even allowed to communicate with the teachers. Any attempt to do so is likely to get them into even more trouble. It's like there is a wall between the students and teachers and no door to go through.