Needing suggestions

[irishbutterfly]

My son Cabe is 5 (will be 6 next month) and is in kindergarten. He was diagnosed with ADHD in Sept.
He really struggled in learning the alphabet and phonics, numbers... pretty much everything. He is lefthanded and in OT and has alot of trouble writing.
Well now that we are getting close to end of school conferences i am worried about moving him on to first grade. I have talked with his teachers before about the possibility of keeping him back another year just so that they would know that i was open to the idea.
I talked to his teachers yesterday and we are all impressed with his major improvements in all areas except for his writing. He can barely write his first name and i am worried that this will hurt him if he goes on to first grade. He seems to be learning everything in leaps and bounds but just cant get writing.
I have him practice writing his name every night and it ends up being a struggle.
When i brought up holding him back his teacher brought up the fact that she was worried about what it would do to his self esteem because he is so much bigger than the other kids already. He is about the size of a first or second grader. Also he has made great strides in his social relationships and she is worried that he will be made fun of if he is held back.
If anyone has any suggestions on what i could do to help with his writing i would greatly appreciate it.
This seems to be the only thing that is not improving no matter how hard we all try.
Sorry this is so long.

[Dakotah]

Hi Irishbutterfly! Check out www.hwtears.com It is wonderful! My son is five and couldn't write any letters until this program. He can now write all the upper case letters with verbal cues! After only ONE month. His OT does it with him so I went on-line and ordered supplies to do it at home. It only takes five or ten minutes a night. I swear by it! My son qualified for private OT because of his handwriting and sensory issues. Thank goodness our insurance covered it. Would this be an option for your son?

[Mayleng]

Irish, please do not hold him back. There have been studies that showed that it serves no purposed to hold a child back. Was he evaluated for dysgraphia? If he is having OT services, make sure it is continues. Is he getting enough OT services?

Gina R. (my school psych friend on Schwab) would definitely advise you against holding your child back. This is her pet peeve.

May sure that he gets the remedial help he needs with the OT.

[Dakotah]

Okay I have to stick my nose in this. I try so hard not to let the teacher in me get out of control. There are several different beliefs about holding back. I must tell you that I agree with Mayleng. Children who receive special ed. services, as a rule of thumb, should NEVER be held back. The theory is that one more year will give them nothing because it is the services they need not the repeated grade. It is believed that schools should meet the child where they are at and have an open ended curriculum. There are many studies that back these ideas. Personally I have NEVER recommended repeating a grade to any student but that is just my opinion. I especially would recommend against it if he is improving in all other areas. Modifications can be made in the areas of OT within the classroom. I would ask his OT about the Handwriting Without Tears program. I am serious that it has worked wonders for our son. Okay I am done now...

[Mayleng]

Backing up to what Dakotah is saying, check out this link:

www.nasponline.org It is the website of the National Association of School Psychologists, which have a number of position papers on grade retention, and the ineffectiveness of holding a child back. This was just posted by a poster at another site.

Dakotah, nice to know we think alike on this issue.

[joshiemom]

My two cents..... I was in the same boat last year with my son. Teacher wanted to hold him back because he had had a lot of behavioral issues and was on the low side of the learning scale for K. She said he was a good candidate for holding back since he was (1) a boy, (2) had his b-day late in the year, (3) was immature for his age, and (4) was on the lower end of the learning scale. However, she did NOT recommend holding him back because his self-esteem would suffer greatly.

At this time, we moved to CA from AZ and my hub and I decided that we would have him repeat K since we'd be in a new school district. But when I talked to the principal at his new school, she asked what his abilities were and when I told her (he could write his name, although it was messy and he (gasp!) used both upper and lower case to write it; could count to 20 but skipped 18 (actually he could at that point count close to like 50 or 60); and did know his alphabet and how to write them for the most part. She told me that we should absolutely not hold him back because it would be too remedial for him. If it was the behavior and immaturity that needed to be dealt with, that wouldn't change no matter what grade he was in (like what Dakotah posted - its the services they need not the remedial items). Also, in CA they don't do any testing until the first grade since K isn't mandatory. So unless Josh started in first he wouldn't be eligible for any testing, summer school, etc.

Josh started first grade and hit it off with his teacher. While he's still at the low end of the scale, he has made terrific strides and is in no way left behind the other kids academically. Socially is another problem...........

So for my two cents, I would push for not holding him back.

[shardstar]

I totally agree with the above posts. Do not hold him back.

You would be amazed at the leaps and bounds that kids make at this age in just one years time! My daughter was having all kinds of problems in kindergarten with writing, cutting, and drawing. Her teacher was recomending that she get some OT help and we were seriously considering starting it in first grade. Then, about two months before school started, all of a sudden (it seemed like) she just began drawing beautifly, cutting well, and her writing improved a good deal. She now has the ability to write pretty neatly (not that she always does write neatly, but she DOES have the ability)

I think that Cabe will have a much better self esteem level if he isn't much older than the other kids in his class. Take it from someone who has first hand experience. When I was in kindergarten, my teacher and parents decided that I wasn't ready for first grade yet, and I was placed into a class called "Transition". I'm not sure why I wasn't ready, but I recently found out that I have ADHD too, which could be why. All through my school life, I felt really embarassed that I was older, and it was really tough on me to go through things a year or two earlier than the rest of the class, such as,being the first girl in my class to get her period of wear a bra, etc.

I hope this helps! Good Luck to you and your son.

[Dakotah]

A quick question- Do any of you feel like there is a difference between having your child repeat a grade versus holding a child out of kindergarten because he or she has a summer birthday (and other issues)? I struggle with this one because the child can either be one full year younger or one day older that other students in his or her grade. My friend and I had kids three days apart. Her daughter was born Aug. 30 and mine was Sept. 2. In theory they would be in different grades yet only three days apart in age. FYI she held her out and they are in the same grade. They actually have "five by fall" programs now for this reason.

[Brenda]

Dakota,I am worried about the late birthday thing with my son.His birthday is Aug.31 and he could go to 4K this August.He is soooo little for his age.He only weighs 28 pounds and wears a size 2 or 3.I think he is developementally ready but he is just to little.Stephanie went to 4K last year and she was alot bigger and wore a size 6.I don't know if I should let him go.He stays home with me since I don't work.I think he needs to be around other kids his age.What do you think?

[LaurieL]

I agree. I would not hold him back either. In fact I was talking to a school psych this last week and she said that -as other posts have stated-it really is not that benifical.

[Dakotah]

Hi Brenda. My son is five and has a summer birthday. I held him out. He weighs thirty pounds and wears a size four. For sake of arguement many people say size shouldn't matter and I agree BUT it is another piece of the puzzle. In theory holding out and holding back are considered the same thing and both have studies backing the idea of each not being a good decision. I feel there is a difference. Holding back is sending a message to the child. Holding back isn't age appropriate. Holding back doesn't offer extra support. Holding out is usually done because the child is actually felt to be too young even though they make the cut off. It is concidered to be more age appropriate because a hold tends to be closer in age than a hold back (not always I know). For us we held out because he was too young and truelly not ready to face the "real" world. He is in special educ. classes right now and receives better support now than he would have in reg. educ. class. To us it wasn't even up for discussion to send him because of who he is. He is in a "five by fall" program with an aide to help him adjust to being in a large group. He has SI and has a hard time being around other people Because of funding, he would not get an aide in regular ed. classes. SOOOO, I never have recommended hold out because of size (I was the oldest in my class and the shortest). It really depends on the "whole picture". If your child is ready in all aspects except size I would be comfortable sending him. If you are unsure if he's "ready" is there someone to ask? Preshcool teacher, Sunday School teacher, etc? Ask how he is compared to his age group right now. We have found this a helpful resource. I realize we shouldn't compare kids but honestly it is your best measure on where he stands. And just food for thought... I have never run across a parent who has said they wish they would have sent them after holding them out. I have heard, however, over and over that they wish they would have waited to send their child.

[irishbutterfly]

Thanks everyone for the quick responses .

Dakotah - I dont know if my insurance will cover private OT but i do know that Cabe goes to OT at school twice a week for 30 min (total of an hour). I will ask the OT about the HWT program. Thanks for your input I am glad that you stuck your nose in this. ;D

Mayleng - Cabe has never been evaluated for dysgraphia, but i am going to ask about having him tested when i call his teacher in the morning. I had already asked if they thought he needed more OT and was told that he gets the max because the therapist is only at our school twice a week and he sees her both days. Thank you for giving me your input too. ;D

Joshiemom and shardstar thanks for your input.

Just so you all know this is exactly the kind of support I needed because I am really not wanting to hold Cabe back (I would if I thought it helped). I think it would really hurt him if he had to stay in kinder when everyone else went on. He worries so much about how other kids think of him and I think that being held back would bring his self esteem way down. He has improved so much even his teachers are a little suprised at how well he is doing in everything else. I am lucky that both of his teachers are encouraging and are willing to help in any way that they can . His extended day teacher is just nuts about him and knows exactly how to read him so that she can help him get through his days at school. She can read his moods, make him smile when he is getting angry, tell when he is getting too frustrated and put him on to another task, and really build him up with praise and encouragement. Both of his teachers are just really great.
I hope his teacher next year is just as good.

Thanks so much all of you. I love that I can come on here and get the help and encouragment I need.

[geewiznit]

On the subject of holding back kids from kindergarten when they have late in the year birthdays... please read our story!

My son D, born late November, was very small for his age (shortest boy in the nursery school class), not terribly mature, but extremely bright. The teacher met with us in the spring of 4 year old nursery school and recommended that he start kindergarten in the fall. We happened to ask where our son was at that moment, and she answered --oh, he's in the 3 year old room, he likes to hang out there (it was a very loosely structured program). Duh! Then a work colleague told me how she was the shortest kid in elementary school and still remembered how mortified she was when she was the only one who couldn't reach the bookshelf during free reading time. At 35 the memory still pained her! I took that to heart, thinking how much worse that kind of situation would be with a boy. Finally, a friend had to withdraw her son from kindergarten till the next year when he proved too immature to handle it. The bad initial experience turned him against school for a long time.

So, adding it all up, we held D back, changing him to a different nursery school, one that was more formal and had a different curriculum, so he would still be stimulated. He's a freshman in college now, and we've never regretted our decision, not for one minute. The height and maturity issues stayed with him, so we were always glad he wasn't a year ahead. And in high school we discovered that he had a nonverbal learning disability, so we were glad we hadn't pushed him. There was no downside. No one ever questioned him about it or thought it odd. When at some point in elementary school it finally dawned on him that he was older than the other kids in his class, we explained the reasons quite honestly, and he wasn't fazed at all. And he was the big man on campus when he was the first of his friends to get a driver's license!

Our situation was of course specific to us, but given the slow maturation of boys compared to girls, I would very seriously consider holding back any boy who has a late in the year birthday--many educators agree.

[Mayleng]

There is a difference between holding back a child and repeating a grade. I held both my kids back a year from starting K because they were late birthdays ie. End Sept and End October.
I have no regrets with that, except that I might have gotten help for my younger one who is an ADDer had I not held him back - maybe. He wasn't Dxed until last yr. But since both were late birthday anyways, emotionally and maturity wise, it turned out to be better for them. It seems alot of parents in our school district is doing the same thing so my kids aren't much different from their peers. They are not big kids either, just average size.

I would not make them repeat a grade because of the self-esteem issues, and I feel it does not help with their remediation. When they repeat a grade, they know that their friends are moving up and they are not, thereby making them feel that maybe they are stupid or dumb. So they should move up with their peers and make sure they get the remedial help they need. That is KEY.

[mattandchris]

I need to jump in on this but for a different reason. First of all irishbutterfly it sounds like your child is making great strides. He is receiving special services which will continue. My youngest, non-ADHDer, was very small and had been delayed due to health issues as an infant. To my eyes as his mother he had caught up-he hadn't. It was fairly early in the year that we began thinking of repeating K. He had a wonderful teacher who handled it beautifully. A couple of his K friends are still his friends. He is now in 3rd grade. We always treated it as a positive thing. Most of his 3rd grade friends know and they really don't care. Maybe I was just lucky enough to have a very compassionate teacher. I would do it again if given the choice.

[Dakotah]

Mayleng I wouldn't think twice about your choice. ADD is a tough one in kindergarten. It honestly is hard to spot because the age group, as a whole, has a hard time focusing. We weren't even allowed to say ADHD to parents because it is a medical diagnosis and there was the possibility of law suits due to the fact we were suggesting it so the district would have to pay for testing! If that isn't politics at it's finest! I would give the parents all the characteristics I saw in their child and nine times out of ten they would come up with the idea to go to their doctor.

I like that we are the same on holding back too

[Brenda]

Dakota,My sister in law is the assistant teacher in the 4k class that he would go to.I asked her about him going and she thinks he is ready.She said he really needs to get used to being away from me.He would only go 3 hours a day.She ythinks that it would be better to let him get used to it before he starts all day K.I'm going to consider letting him go.Maybe he will go through a growth sput in the next few months.

[MsMac]

Brendamccraw2, my son is also very small for his age. He is by far the smallest in his class. His birthday is late September so in my state I had to hold him back. In kindergarten his size was not a big deal, he is now in second grade and the kids are more aware and verbal about his size. There is only one boy in his class with a summer birthday. There are several boys who are 5 to 6 months older than my son.

Because of the ADD he is immature and the kids do treat him differently because of his small size. He has to sit in the smallest desk, he can't reach the top coat rack. On days when he is the "classroom helper" he can't reach the box outside the classroom and the teacher has to do that job for him. At the beginning of the year several kids asked me if he was really 8. I hate it, but size does matter to kids.

[Dakotah]

MsMac I totally understand what you are saying! Especially for boys. This is going to be a problem for my son, I am sure of it. Here is my problem, where does it stop? Kids find anything and everything to pick on. If it isn't size it is body shape, clothes, hair etc. I wouldn't be being honest if I said I never considered my son's size when deciding to hold him back. But there were many other things going on with him, not just size. To be honest, size is the last thing we are worried about at this point but I know it will become an issue I read your post and all my theories and ideas are gone. I just totally understand what you are saying. As a teacher I would never recommend holding back ONLY because of size (no other issues). Part of me thinks also, what would it hurt holding him back? It is age appropriate. Do we really need to push our kids to grow up faster than they need to? You guys have me all messed up to day!!!!

Brenda what is 4K class? Are you saying you would do this program this fall and kindergarten next fall? If you do hold him out this sounds like a great transition! Giving him this stepping stone would help with his and your separation. It sounds like your sister-in-law is a great resource for you!

[Brenda]

Yes Dakota.The 4 K class will be this fall and is only from 8:00-10:30.It is a class that helps get them ready for all day kindergarten.You have to take a test and they only let 20 kids in who need it the most.He already knows his colors,numbers and some letters.He may not even get in so I might be worrying for nothing.Thanks

[Mayleng]

Dakotah, I put my little ADDer in a transitional K class too before Kindergarten. It was only a half day class.

I think you have to think about firstly, whether your child is emotionally and academically ready for kindergarten. As you so rightly put, it was easier to make the decision to hold my younger son back because I felt at the time that he was not emotionally (maturity) ready. I didn't know that he was ADD then, just gut feel that he was not ready, plus I had already held his older brother (non-ld, non-ADD) back because of a late birthday. My older son was emotionally and academically ready, but I had spoken to some friends and family members, who have held their kids back and others who have late birthdays but decided to let them start on time. The thing I got out of it was, the ones who held them back did not have any problems or complains about their decision and were glad they did it. The ones who didn't, regretted it because they say their kids being the youngest seems to be doing alot of "catch up" with the older kids through their entire academic careers. I also wanted my kids not to be the youngest kids in their respective grades and be influenced by older kids (if you know what I mean). I wanted them to be more matured and less likely to be influenced by other kids, not only in elementary but I was thinking ahead into the middle and high school years - I think that is when maturity counts for alot more in terms of peer pressure.

Size matters to a point, but not all kids pick on smaller kids, if there are mean kids around, they are likely to pick on shy kids, goofy kids, adhd kids, Ld kids - they will pick on anything and everything. You cannot prevent that, you can ran interference when it happens. My Adder has not been picked on yet (he is 2nd grade) but my older 5th grader who has no issues, has been picked on by various kids since 2nd grade and sometimes he gets it now from the same kid who picked on him in 2nd grade. My older one is very forgiving and has a soft heart and as kind as he is, he gets picked on because this other kid just didn't like him from the 2nd grade and it still continues today. My son is holding his own, he says "whatever" when this kid does his nonsense and walks away. He feels hurt but he knows he is not the problem, the other kid is. The point is, you can hold your son back because of size, but if the kids want to pick on him, they will find other reasons. So your decision has to be based on more than just size.

I hope this helps and I have not confused you further.

[irishbutterfly]

I was just going over Cabes report card and the only academics that need improvement are his numbers. I think this is because we have been so focused on letter recognition and phonics that we havent worked so much on numbers. The other things that need improvement are behaviors - interrupting others, not listening when others speak, and working without disrupting others. He did receive a satisfactory for treating others with respect and keeping his hands and feet to himself . His teachers say that he is polite.
I think if we work on his numbers and his writing he will be okay to go onto first grade.
I think that he might be a little immature but that will improve with time. His behavior is another thing. We are working on not interrupting and listening when others speak. This will take time but he will eventually get them down too.