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Post by invisibleink on Aug 16, 2018 10:45:41 GMT -5
Hi Everyone,
It's been awhile, and I thank you all for your guidance in the past.
My son had new neuropsych testing this spring, and he has new diagnoses of Other Specified Neurodevelopmental Disorder and generalized anxiety disorder (I consider it to be school anxiety!). The ND disorder was specified as including impairments in visual memory, sustained visual attention, sensory functioning issues, and he has some traits of autism. Prior diagnoses are ADHD, convergence insufficiency, and oculomotor dysfunction.
He is going into 7th grade, and I am concerned about his math placement this year. It's the first year that kids take different level math classes. He has been placed in the general math class, not pre-algebra.
My son certainly has his difficulties. He tends to process slower than other kids and can be disorganized in how he writes down his work--but he is really good at math. His spring neuropsych testing included the WJ IV Achievement tests. His mathematics cluster score was 119 (GE 13, RPI 99/90). Applied Problems was 117, Calculation was 117, and Math Facts Fluency was 100. His WISC V FRI was 115, yet processing speed was 89. Working Memory was highly discrepant, with a 13 for digit span, and a 5 for picture span. He is not medicated for ADHD, at his own insistence.
He had A's and B's as report card grades in math last year, and the teacher said he was an outstanding, hardworking student. (His other classes are another story). I was told that placement decisions were made based on grades, state testing scores, teacher recommendation, and a screening test last year. Last years teacher felt he would be "more successful" in the general math class. They said they would consider moving him up if his 7th grade teacher recommends it.
Am I justified in being concerned about this math placement? Is there even anything I can do about it? Even my son feels that he wants the more advanced math work. He learns the concepts well, even if he does fewer problems.
I'm just so annoyed! It feels like now I'm fighting for both the support he needs, AND for them to respond appropriately to his strengths too.
Any thoughts would be helpful. Thank you!
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Post by bros on Aug 16, 2018 11:17:09 GMT -5
Talk to his guidance counselor about it. Maybe they can see how he is doing after a few weeks into the year, and if he is outpacing his classmates, they can move him to pre-algebra
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 16, 2018 17:05:27 GMT -5
I'm confused...is last year's teacher (the one who said he was an outstanding, hardworking student), the same one who felt he would be "more successful" in the general math class? Do you know what the general math curriculum covers, compared to the pre-algebra class? (I'm wondering if your son has already shown mastery of the general math concepts.)
Since the school will consider moving your son up to pre-algebra if his 7th grade teacher recommends it, it sounds to me like the school really weighs teacher recommendations above all the other factors (grades, state test scores, etc.) so I'm wondering if you could speak to last year's teacher and find out the specific concepts that he or she feels your son was lacking to go into pre-algebra. Perhaps that teacher would reconsider their general math recommendation, and allow your son to start off in prealgebra, without waiting for a new 7th grade teacher's assessment.
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Post by invisibleink on Aug 17, 2018 6:18:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions...bros, they did say they would move him if it looked like he should be moved. I'm not sure they would make such a big change in reality, though.
Healthy, yes...it was the same teacher. I'm confused by it too! I did send an email to the teacher to help understand what the concerns were.
If the outside testing showed just a few years grade equivalent gap I wouldn't be so concerned. Grade 7 pre algebra is a fairly advanced math track. But this seems like such a big difference!
I suppose the other question is--if he tests that high on achievement, what is keeping him from performing similarly in class??
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 17, 2018 16:15:12 GMT -5
From what I can gather, the school isn't using your son's private testing scores in considering what math placement to put him in this year. I'm wondering if you got his scores from the state testing and screening test that he was given last year? Does your son have an IEP allowing extended time, and did he use the extended time when he took those tests? With slower processing, I'm thinking he might have gotten most of the problems that he did do correct, but if he didn't finish all the problems his scoring may have appeared "average" at best, hence they feel he'd be better off in the general class? (In other words, there's a difference between someone who gets 25 questions out of 50 total questions correct if they only attempted 25 problems, versus someone who attempted all 50 and got half of what they answered wrong.)
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Post by bros on Aug 18, 2018 11:15:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions...bros, they did say they would move him if it looked like he should be moved. I'm not sure they would make such a big change in reality, though. Healthy, yes...it was the same teacher. I'm confused by it too! I did send an email to the teacher to help understand what the concerns were. If the outside testing showed just a few years grade equivalent gap I wouldn't be so concerned. Grade 7 pre algebra is a fairly advanced math track. But this seems like such a big difference! I suppose the other question is--if he tests that high on achievement, what is keeping him from performing similarly in class?? In my experience, they will if it is very obvious the kid should be in another class - if the new teacher goes "...yeaaah, this kid knows this stuff already, there any room in pre algebra?" they will move them |
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Post by invisibleink on Aug 19, 2018 18:10:05 GMT -5
From what I can gather, the school isn't using your son's private testing scores in considering what math placement to put him in this year. I'm wondering if you got his scores from the state testing and screening test that he was given last year? Does your son have an IEP allowing extended time, and did he use the extended time when he took those tests? With slower processing, I'm thinking he might have gotten most of the problems that he did do correct, but if he didn't finish all the problems his scoring may have appeared "average" at best, hence they feel he'd be better off in the general class? (In other words, there's a difference between someone who gets 25 questions out of 50 total questions correct if they only attempted 25 problems, versus someone who attempted all 50 and got half of what they answered wrong.) It does look like this is what happened. The teacher did reply with how the process worked. Students must meet 4 out of 6 criteria, and my son was one short. My son had done poorly on a timed placement test. He said that processing speed is not one of my sons strengths, and that this particular timed test result--all on its own--was reason to keep him on a grade level track where he would excel. It sounds like processing speed was a major factor. If this is the case, I don't think next year's teacher will make changes. I haven't seen his state testing results yet, but if he met that many criteria he likely scored in the advanced range. I don't think any private testing was factored in. My son does have extended time on his 504 plan, "especially for tests that require extensive writing". Maybe they didn't think it applied here--but more likely they wouldn't apply it here because processing speed actually mattered in their eyes. I thought the philosophy of holding bright kids back due to processing speed problems was a thing of the past...I thought these days they accommodated for this weakness. |
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 19, 2018 21:52:27 GMT -5
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Post by jisp on Aug 20, 2018 7:46:21 GMT -5
I have a different take on this problem. One of my boys was dyslexic and an extremely slow processor but also clearly was very bright and mathematical concepts and skills were a strength. He attended a school for children with language based LDs and returned to the public school for 8th grade. They put him in a math class that was not the most advanced but was also still one above the average class. By Halloween our son was behind and every week was falling farther and farther behind. Once this happened it was like watching a bowling ball roll down a hill. It just kept rolling faster and faster. Our son became discouraged, depressed, disengaged. He stopped thinking of himself as somebody who was good at math but rather as somebody who found math difficult. He lost motivation.
It took years to rebuild him from this. For years our son struggled with math and finding a class that met his intellectual needs as well as his learning style. He did not manage to pass a single Algebra class until he finally took a self-paced class at our local community college when he was 17. Once he finally passed that class he took off and today is a post-doctoral fellow in mathematical biology with a joint position at two prestigious universities.
With his younger brother whose profile is similar but not quite extreme I refused to let him be placed in the highest math class. I would constantly take the forms and have him be placed in a level below what the teacher's recommended he be placed in. Yes he found those classes easy and at times complained they were boring but he also never fell behind and never lost faith in his ability to do mathematics and to learn mathematics. Today he is a professional musician....so another way the down-grade helped our son was that it gave him time to pour himself into something he loved: Music.
The lesson: Think carefully about pushing for your child to be in the top class. For some kids it is better to be a BIG FISH in a SMALL POND rather than struggling to keep up with the sharks.
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Post by invisibleink on Aug 20, 2018 9:28:33 GMT -5
Healthy--I'm in MA (I think jisp is from here too, if I remember correctly).
My son was denied eligibility 3x, and I disagreed with them twice. One of these times was after the new diagnoses. They say he is accessing his education due to grades and standardized test scores and is making "effective progress". We will be re-convening in the fall again due to some procedural issues. I am not too optimistic that the outcome will change, and it's a pretty complicated situation with him being so discrepant in abilities and disabilities. I've had two advocates in the past year, and while we succeeded in securing a few vision accommodations that I had been pushing for, the IEP looks pretty unlikely.
My son really needs (at minimum) an OT consult to help teachers provide visually accessible materials. The district OT recommended this consult, but it was removed from his 504 shortly after it went on because related services are special ed in MA-- and because he's making "effective progress" he doesn't qualify for special ed. We had quite a few problems with accessible materials last year. When school starts it really feels like advocating for my son is another full time job.
jisp--you make really good points, and I do think that my son's processing speed the major concern that the teacher has. Do you feel that your first son had appropriate accommodations for his processing speed when he was struggling? Would a lower level math class have made a difference for him, or would this have not met his needs either?
Thank you both!
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Post by jisp on Aug 20, 2018 17:12:54 GMT -5
invisible ink...I could write a novel about our first son's struggles with school and our attempts to advocate for him.
He was a complicated kid and many teachers and special educators simply did not "get" his learning profile. So even when we had an IEP that seemed to address his weak areas, school repeatedly failed him because teachers insisted they were doing everything they needed to do to help our son.
Would a lower level math class have helped our middle son? No. But there was a cost to his failing. It is worth noting that the following year this son was put into a lower level math class where he continued to struggle. Why? Because our son needed to be taught math in a way that worked with his disability and the lower level math class was even more language heavy and less systematic and organized. After his struggle I homeschooled his younger brother for a year and taught him math using Saxon Math. The systematic and straight forward approach worked well for him and our younger son entered high school with a VERY solid foundation that allowed him to excel at higher level math classes.
Our son finally thrived once he was 17 and had almost all but given up learning. I can honestly say he learned NOTHING in school between ages 14-17. What supports did he need for his slow processing and short term memory issues that school was not willing to provide: He needed pre-learning to be possible - so teachers needed to have syllabi and reading available to him before the material was presented in class (for what ever crazy reason this is something college professors do regularly but high school teachers seem incapable of doing). He benefitted from organized lecture notes -or printed out images of slides used during lectures (again something college professors often provide.). He benefitted from lectures being video -taped. Again something that occurs regularly in big college classes. And he benefitted from regular review sections with TAs-Another feature of college that does not exist in high school. Our son became motivated to try learning by taking college extension classes and classes at our local community college after doing a science/oceanography summer program where the learning was very hands on and multi-disciplinary. He loved it and came back and fought with his IEP team to convince them to let him take the college classes.
I should also add that he was getting intensive and very helpful cognitive therapy to help him learn how to learn.
Invisible ink if you want to private message me and if you want some assistance I would be happy to help. I used to do advocacy. But I have not worked with actively with a client in a few years. The one thing I can say having "perspective" is that the IEP alone should not be the goal. The goal should be finding a way for your child to be happy, learning and productive in the school environment.
That being said the removal you are talking about sounds Illegal and not right!!! A child should never be denied services because they do not have an IEP. In fact a 504 can even specify that a consult occur.
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 20, 2018 17:40:40 GMT -5
Thanks, Jisp. I'm in IL and can't help much, but I believe Michellea is also still advocating in MA...I hope she sees this discussion thread and will add her input.
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Post by michellea on Aug 20, 2018 19:32:13 GMT -5
I have a child that was on a 504 for "concentration" (slow processing, poor working memory). She always did well in all academics until Middle School. At the end of sixth grade, she took the math placement test and did not meet the cut off - but her math teacher advocated for her and she took advanced from 7th -9th. In 9th, she really struggled. She rarely finished a test or quiz and despite understanding the concepts, struggled for C's. She always scored advanced on MCAS. In 10th grade, she dropped to college prep math and got a 504 that included extra time. In the regular math class and with extra time, her anxiety reduced and performance improved. She was able to harness the new found confidence to take higher level classes in science and history (she was already tracking on the honors level for English). She attended a competitive college and did well in math requirements - calculus, statistics, quantitative analysis, economics, finance etc. I believe that she actually benefited by taking it more slowly in HS to gain confidence, fully learn the foundational skills and earn grades she could be proud of. (I'm not super worried about grades except for how they make the student feel).
I agree that sometimes it helps to be a big fish in a small pond. Learning math is not a race (as Jisp's son illustrates). I remember telling both my kids - don't worry, you will be able to take calculus and higher level math when you are ready. I saw similar issues with youth sports. There were always the kids that wanted to play "up" (with the older level) to get a better experience. More often than not, these kids ended up playing less than their peers that played on their grade level, and they ended up getting burnt out. Many times the kids that played on level ended up having the fundamental skills, confidence, and enthusiasm to spring ahead as strong varsity players in HS. By taking it slow their sports skills were solid and they developed leadership skills -the full package to be "stars".
There is some benefit to considering the developmental level of the individual and giving them time and practice to learn. School and life are not a race.
Given anxiety and other issues-if you or your son have any doubt about the math level, I believe that starting slowly may actually benefit him.
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Post by jisp on Aug 21, 2018 6:31:59 GMT -5
Michellea, what about the OT request? That seems bizarre that a district OT would recommend an evaluation and the school would not follow through with it.
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Post by invisibleink on Aug 21, 2018 8:15:36 GMT -5
jisp--the district OT did evaluate and although she found some visual perceptual issues and fine motor integration issues, she did not recommend direct services at that time. Several months later, my son was diagnosed with the vision problems. It was at this subsequent meeting that the OT said to put her on the 504 plan as an OT consult to the team. My understanding was that this was to help the team with accessibility issues.
This consultation service is what was removed from the 504 plan a few months later. I was told that it was removed because it was considered special education and couldn't be on a 504 plan. One advocate has said this is true, and another said it was not.
Thank you all for telling me about what you have experienced with your own kids with processing speed issues. It's both hard to hear what your kids went through, but reassuring that things can still turn out okay for them in the long run. The teacher mentioned many of the same things, and it sounds like it really is the right call. Hopefully the new math teacher can still find some ways to challenge him a bit and reduce some of the boredom.
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Post by jisp on Aug 21, 2018 17:14:39 GMT -5
OK...I get where the confusion is. The issue is that technically when a child has a 504 there is no "team" because there are no specialized services being provided to the child. A 504 is about accommodations. So having a "consult" listed on a 504 plan does not mean very much. On the other hand one can have it mentioned in a 504 plan that teachers and the school should be taking note of whether the child is able to access the curriculum and whether or not his vision is getting the way. And in that note it can be mentioned that they can consult with the school's OT if they have any doubt or question about how to accommodate the child's needs. Of course the challenge is with all of this is in the details. I have seen badly worded 504s for kids where the schools are doing an amazing job meeting the child's needs and I have seen very detailed 504 plans in situations where the school is failing to meet the child's needs.
The fun thing about math (speaking as somebody is a math person and whose son is now a mathematician) is that at any level there is infinite depth to be explored. And the fun exciting part about it is that there is tons of material available online. So if your child says they are bored. Or if they want more challenge have them look up some math videos to watch. Start planting the seeds that learning is something he can be in control of and he does not need a teacher or a class in order to explore and expand his knowledge and his skill set. Failing in school was a gift to ALL my kids because they learned they learned how to learn on their own and developed their own motivation and curiosity.
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 24, 2018 13:15:00 GMT -5
Jisp, what are some of the online math sites you like the best? What about Khanacademy.org?
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Post by jisp on Aug 24, 2018 18:15:59 GMT -5
I am not a fan of Khanacademy. Instead I would look for EdX courses. So much depends on what the student is interested in and wants to learn or what sort of challenges they are seeking out. Also I have not looked at web sites in many years and things change. One we site I used to adore for brain-teaser type puzzles was nrich.maths.org. I used it a lot when we were home schooling as the open problems were fun and it was also fun for my son to see how other students approached the problems. |
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Post by michellea on Aug 30, 2018 12:52:05 GMT -5
Sorry - I rarely get on here these days! Regarding the OT consult on a 504 - From www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.html "4. What services are available for students with disabilities under Section 504? Section 504 requires recipients to provide to students with disabilities appropriate educational services designed to meet the individual needs of such students to the same extent as the needs of students without disabilities are met. An appropriate education for a student with a disability under the Section 504 regulations could consist of education in regular classrooms, education in regular classes with supplementary services, and/or special education and related services." OT services and consultation is considered supplementary or related services. This is allowed in a 504 plan as outlined by this memo. Often, I have kids on 504's for anxiety and the school social worker or school adjustment counselor provides direct services and consult under the 504. This is no different! It certainly makes sense to give your son and his teachers access to the OT to help design materials that are accessible to him despite his disability. I believe that your district is wrong - they do not need to remove the consult. |
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Post by invisibleink on Oct 27, 2018 16:42:03 GMT -5
For some reason, related services are considered special education under Massachusetts state law. 504 plans are for accommodations that ensure equal access only. Even these can be difficult to get approved in upper grades and become increasingly limited. (EX: Recommended accommodations from the neuropsych for scheduled movement breaks and checking his homework agenda have been denied now that he is in middle school). If federal law prevailed, my son would probably not need an IEP because he could get the help he needs (including specialized instruction) on a 504 plan. From Children's Law Center of MA: www.clcm.org/504_Plans.html :How is a 504 plan different from special education? In order to be found eligible for special education services, a student must be diagnosed with a disability that impairs their ability to make effective progress in school and thus requires specialized instruction and/or related services in order to make such progress. Unlike a special education student, a student with a 504 plan is able to make effective progress in school without the need for specialized instruction and/or related services. However, he or she requires accommodations in order to gain equal access to instruction and/or the school facility. A student’s 504 plan will provide accommodations that allow a student with a major life activity impairment to have the same level of access to the instruction, school activities, and the school building as students without disabilities. Sample Accommodations: Modified homework, class work, and tests Extra time for homework, class work, and tests Extra set of books for home Preferential seating close to source of instruction Assistance when moving about the building Grading based on individual progress or effort Test retake for better grades Visual aids Test directions read orally Use of calculator Table of facts for reference Frequent breaks Behavior Intervention Plan |
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Post by jisp on Oct 27, 2018 18:06:45 GMT -5
Federal Law always prevails. I am not sure what the confusion is. State law is always a supplement on top of the Federal law. If anything in MA the special education laws are more rigorous than the Federal Laws.
There is no reason for the middle school to deny your son accommodations recommended by the neuropsychologist unless they disagree with the neuropsychologist about the evaluation. So I think it would be a good idea to bring together a team to talk about why the school does not want to implement those specific accommodations. It might be necessary to bring the neuropsychologist to the meeting. If the school still refuses then I would ask them put why they are refusing this in writing.
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Post by bros on Oct 28, 2018 9:14:50 GMT -5
For some reason, related services are considered special education under Massachusetts state law. 504 plans are for accommodations that ensure equal access only. Even these can be difficult to get approved in upper grades and become increasingly limited. (EX: Recommended accommodations from the neuropsych for scheduled movement breaks and checking his homework agenda have been denied now that he is in middle school). If federal law prevailed, my son would probably not need an IEP because he could get the help he needs (including specialized instruction) on a 504 plan. From Children's Law Center of MA: www.clcm.org/504_Plans.html :How is a 504 plan different from special education? In order to be found eligible for special education services, a student must be diagnosed with a disability that impairs their ability to make effective progress in school and thus requires specialized instruction and/or related services in order to make such progress. Unlike a special education student, a student with a 504 plan is able to make effective progress in school without the need for specialized instruction and/or related services. However, he or she requires accommodations in order to gain equal access to instruction and/or the school facility. A student’s 504 plan will provide accommodations that allow a student with a major life activity impairment to have the same level of access to the instruction, school activities, and the school building as students without disabilities. Sample Accommodations: Modified homework, class work, and tests Extra time for homework, class work, and tests Extra set of books for home Preferential seating close to source of instruction Assistance when moving about the building Grading based on individual progress or effort Test retake for better grades Visual aids Test directions read orally Use of calculator Table of facts for reference Frequent breaks Behavior Intervention Plan Related services are considered special education under federal law - 504s can only provide accommodations. |
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 28, 2018 14:35:39 GMT -5
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Post by jisp on Oct 29, 2018 6:39:24 GMT -5
You also can call and talk to somebody at the Federation for Children with Special Needs. They are a wonderful organization that works with parents throughout the state. fcsn.org |
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