Cogmed training - recommendations?

[lindsy]

Hi everyone
I seem to remember some threads on Cogmed but I haven't been able to find them by searching....

Just had psych ed eval done for ds 14 yrs old. Great report, appears really thorough...biggest piece was low working memory and processing speed. Psychologist is recommendation Cogmed. Any thoughts? Couldn't remember whose dd did program but seem to remember good results? Looking for any concerns, recommendations or threads!

Thanks
Lindsy

[eoffg]

Hi Lindsy,

I was recently advised of a program called C8 Sciences, that has been developed by Yale neuroscientists.

" You can't put a price on increased attention, memory and self-control.
Yale neuroscientists have designed the world's most advanced program to help kids improve their attention and brainpower, and now you can pay what you want."

I have had a brief look at the program, which seems to have parallels with Cogmed?
Though of particular note, is that the cost is: 'Pay what you want'.
So that while you look into Cogmed, maybe you could try out C8 ?
Perhaps pay as much as $10 ?
Here's a link to their website:

c8sciences.com/

[healthy11]

Eoffg, from what I can see, the C8sciences training is for kids age 5-10 years old. They discuss older people here: c8sciences.com/ages

Below are some links to past discussions about Cogmed/Brain Training programs:

millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Education&thread=12241&page=1
millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Education&thread=13010&page=1
millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Education&thread=12970&page=1
millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Education&thread=13193&page=1

[dwolen]

For the record, so folks don't think I am a cogmed salesperson, I just read a critical review of the literature article on Cogmed by Russel Barkley. Basically, he thinks more research is needed before telling parents it will help all/most kids with ADHD.

However, my dd "did" Cogmed at the age of 23, the adult version. She saw immediate improvements in remembering things I take for granted, like phone numbers, keys, and she began to think in words for the first time. Over time, the improvements have continued.

Objectively, her neuropsych testing shows improvement in her working memory scores. In 2007, when she was 19, her working memory score put her at 9% of the population, so that 91% of the population had better working memory performance. Her working memory scores at age 8 years old and 16 years old were similar to the 19 yo score, and the weakness was a big obstacle for her in academics and everyday life.
My dd was retested this past summer, at age 24, a year after finishing Cogmed, and her working memory score put her at 50% of the population. So now her working memory is average. Indeed, life is much easier for her thogh her other LD's cause her to spend 2-3 times studying compared to the average college student.

I wish someone would invent ways to remediate slow processing speed, but since processing speed is tied into the whole dyslexia/phenome processingMy dd never got the benefit of tutoring in the O-G method. I wonder if people who do this remedial reading work also develop a faster processing time?

[michellea]

dwolen - I wish that processing speed could be improved too. This is my son's issue at the 7th percentile.....

[lindsy]

Thanks for the links healthy...I'll check them out. My ds has WMI scores in 5% and processing in the same. His VCI and PRI are in average to low average so psychologist felt that if working memory could be improved upon it might make a big difference even with processing speed. dwolen...I'd be thrilled with 50%. Psych's report confirmed so many things...and altho not a medical dr has recommended that ADHD - inattentive be looked into 'cause there are enough strong indicators. So what else should I be looking for in terms of getting ready for high school (next yr gr 9)?

[lindsy]

Just read all the links healthy gave...interesting! Psych feels he thinks in pictures and altho can read well has big difficulty with comprehensions cause he can't hold all the info as he reads. She did the CMS test...children's memory scales...he scored a high average in delayed recognition and low average/borderline in the rest. For me, its interesting that the inattentive attention was apparent to the psych (in past no one else would see it) but ds also has GAD so anything that would make him feel more capable in everyday life would be huge...

[dwolen]

Working memory deficits is strongly connected to ADHD. MY dd has the dx of ADHD inattentive, but she did not get dx until age 21. It is a long story, but basically I knew nothing about ADHD, and it was never suggested to me to check it out. She also has great difficulties with executive functioning, which is strongly connected to ADHD, too.

A good or at least average working memory is needed for many academic tasks.

I would say the books about ADHD and adolescents, written for parents, are very good. Looking at difficulties in math and science that can be due to working memory difficulties is important to identify because algebra and biology and esp chemistry equations require holding steps and numbers in mind. My dd really fell down in algebra 2 and then in college algebra, and in chemistry equations.
Michellea is the expert here in planning for accommodations in MS and high school.

[kewpie]

Speaking of improving processing time. I think the Arrowsmith cognitive program address's this. It has been around since 1978 so it is not "something new" but it has not become widespread basically because there is no budget to do so. Now that Barbara Arrowsmith Young's book "The Woman Who Changed her Brain" has been published, this may change. Personally, I think it show terrific promise. I have enrolled my daughter in the program due to her failure in school due to "adhd" which I now understand (for her anyway) to be a combination of processing issues.

[dwolen]

I read about Arrowsmith school, in Toronto, I think, before my dd was diagnosed with LD's, a few months after she was graduated from high school, in late 2006. It sounded so good, I nearly convinced her to move to Toronto to attend Arrowsmith school, as the admissions director said they would restructure her brain (brain plasticity) so that she could spell "normally" and so her handwriting would be legible. It was very expensive, but as I knew my dd wanted to go to college, but was held back by the only things we understood as her problems, spelling and handwriting, we wanted to do anything we could for her.

Then, around that time, my psychiatrist, who I started to see after my father's death, took an active and helpful interest in my distress over my dd's learning difficulties,and he recommended new neuropsych testing because he said previous testing was grossly misinterpreted and wrong.
After the neuropsychologist diagnosed 75% of my dd's LD's, including dyslexia for the first time, she recommended the (infamous to me) Davis Dyslexia program. Despite there not being a shred of scientific evidence that supports the Davis program, we were so grateful to the neuropsych for finally diagnosising dd's problems, we spent $6K on the reading and math programs for dd. It was totally ineffective. The Davis program spends lots of resources in training new facilitators world wide, but does not use any resources evaluating its methods in a scientific way. But I have ranted and raved here about this too many times.

I sort of wonder if the Arrowsmith program is like this. I did not find much scientific evidence of the effectiveness of the Arrowsmith program,but that was in 2006. Is there any evidence based support for this besides testimonials? I do know that this method has be adopted by several Orthodox Jewish schools in NY state.

[eoffg]

Dwolen, their are a lot of parallels between Davis and Arrowsmith, where most research has been into effective marketing.

[dwolen]

Definitely, eoffg. When I was frantically searching for help for my dd's dyslexia, I must have found 95 web sites of companies that promise, with testimonials, to fix or cure dyslexia. It is definitely a wild west out there.
I actually called the Davis folks up to complain, but the gentleman I spoke to and exchanged e mails with blocked all my complaints by repeating that my dd's not being cured of dyslexia was due to her not trying hard enough, not doing every recommend exercise. He said she just was not motivated enough to be successful. To me, there are cult like characteristics.

[lindsy]

I've received a trial login to check out the cogmed program so, even tho ugh I'm wary I'm still curious . Also checking out C8 that eoffg mentioned...I'm intrigued that you pay what you want....Also, I wanted to read the book by B. Arrrowsmith Young..again, just always curious. I wish there wasn't so much misinformation/marketing hype but I'm always looking just in case! Thanks so much for your input and thoughts....the working memory piece is soooo hard to find a way to work on. The OG tutor was great at the decoding piece but the memory just can't keep up.

[maggie]

My son attended an Arrowsmith School for a couple of years. He did not complete his entire program but even so, we have noticed improvements and his recent psych-ed assessment shows a significant increase in his WISC scores.

I have never heard of the Davis Program so I can’t compare it, however I have never had the impression that Barbara Arrowsmith has done any massive marketing. Quite the contrary. She has been doing this work in an unassuming manner for the past 30 years and she has come into the spotlight in recent years largely because of a chapter about her in Dr. Norman Doidge’s book, The Brain that Changes Itself. That is how I first learned about her. She released her own book last year and has been getting a lot of publicity now due to that.

[healthy11]

Maggie, thank you for sharing your perspective. It really helps to hear about personal experiences from people who are not affiliated with a company or product. That has been one of the main complaints about Cogmed, where original study results claimed to have wonderful outcomes, but then it was learned that the study coordinator was involved in the product development. Sometimes, a therapy may show promising results even in independent controlled studies, but if it's not delivered to your child by a qualified, well-trained person in the prescribed way, the outcome could be very different. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120927123808.htm

Unfortunately, there is NO "one-size-fits-all" approach that will benefit all people the same way. It's often difficult to know if improvements in a child's performance are directly related to one kind of therapy, or if it's a combination of things, including a child's natural maturity over time. (In other words, even if no formal intervention was done, chances are high that a 9-year-old would perform better than a 6 or 7 year old.) In general, I've heard of few stories about "therapies" that actually harm children, but they can definitely stress children and stress one's wallet, and delay parents from obtaining more appropriate intervention.

[hsmom]

Healthy is correct in saying that there are cases where improvements shown is directly connected to Cogmed or to a combination of factors. I know that this is the case with my son who did Cogmed last spring while at his ld school. We saw a jump in his RAN scores in the fall and also a marked improvement in his writing. However, it is hard to point these directly to Cogmed because of his work with a tutor and other teachers at the same time. His Cogmed coach did say however:

We know that the students with whom we have worked often make solid gains in written and oral language as they have better access to language in general. This would also be consistent with a stronger RAS/RAN scores.

She told me that the headmaster at one ld school is so convinced of the effectiveness of Cogmed that he is having all sixth graders at his school undergo the training. Also, he believes that students get more out of their remedial work in reading after they have done Cogmed. She is hoping the school will publish their results in the near future.

The other point the coach emphasized (after we discussed a study funded by NIH at Hartford Hospital of the changes in brain function of teens with ADHD after training with Cogmed) was the importance of coaching during Cogmed. She told me that without effective coaching a student can go through the training without really trying and get nothing out of the program. We weren't sure whether this study provided coaching to its participants.

When my son did Cogmed, he met in person with his coach before the training began, spoke weekly with her, and received emails when she felt he needed encouragement.

[kewpie]

> however I have never had the impression that Barbara Arrowsmith has done any massive marketing. Quite the contrary. She has been doing this work in an unassuming manner for the past 30 years and she has come into the spotlight in recent years largely because of a chapter about her in Dr. Norman Doidge’s book, The Brain that Changes Itself. That is how I first learned about her. She released her own book last year and has been getting a lot of publicity now due to that. <

Agreed!!! In fact she has publically said she welcomed anyone who would like to conduct a study about Arrowsmith to "have at it".

The biggest probelm I see with Cogmed is that is only works on "working memory" . At the intake a BRIEF is done to identify if the client would be a candidate. The problem is the a BRIEF measures Executive Functioing and EF issues can be the result of a cluster of problems not just a lack of working memory. If working memory was the only issue, then a student would get great results from Cogmed. If the working memory is boosted but the other issues are not, then it would not looked like it "worked".
The Arrowsmith program is like Cogmed multiplied by 19 as it has the ability to address the specific issues that encompass up to 19 neurological disabilities. Once the weakness's are assessed, the program is custom designed to target that particular child. My child has a decent working memory score but still has EF issues so she is diagnosed as adhd innattentive. We tried several ADHD meds that didn't help at all so we were running out of options. Barbara's work was based on the the studies of a Russian scientist who spent his life working with a man who had brain damage from a war.
www.examiner.com/review/the-woman-who-changed-her-brain-the-story-of-barbara-arrowsmith-young

[michellea]

The Arrowsmith school opened a school (Frontier Academy) on my son's former school campus. It operated for 2 years then shut down and lost it's approval to operate in the town. The director (Howard Eaton) and many others came to speak about the program. On one hand it sounded promising - but on the other, when one inquired about specific data about improvement in cognitive and academic skills, they were not able to provide much more than anecdotal info. Admittedly, I tend to be quite conventional and conservative. I did not leave convinced that it would be a good choice for my child.

While I liked the premiss that the school targets the underlying cognitive issues causing LD to make changes and improves in brain functioning, I question the real world results.

Kewpie - presumably, the program would address processing speed issues if this is one of the student's weaknesses. However, they specifically said that they did not work with students with TBI.

[secretsquirrel]

Hi, some of you ladies know of my situation with daughter and low working memory, file retrieval issues. I was interested to see this thread as the Audiologist who did the CAPD testing has suggested we try Cogmed for the WMI. The school offer this as an ECA, every day for 5 weeks. But from what I have been told I think there are about 8 kids in a room with headphones and 2 teachers. Is this how the program is usually carried out?

[lindsy]

Hi secretsquirrel
Love that name..one of my all time fav cartoons!

The Cogmed that has been pitched to us is home based with some interaction by phone / meetings with the provider. I've been given some access codes to "preview" some of the program...my ds is 14 (but a young 14) who has done FastForword in the past for CAPD...he has a very similar profile to your dd. FFW was tough...intensive...grueling...for both of us. It took alot of motivating to
set through it. I think it might be hard to convince a small group to keep going and to really work through things. Maybe I am wrong...I do know it would be hard for my ds to be in a group doing something this demanding. FFW did help for us....not sure about Cogmed. I would need to do some pretty heavy convincing for ds...and I am still concerned with conflicting opinions. I am trying to check out Jungle memory and C8. I want to feel like we are moving forward on the working memory...even if it is small steps...

[hsmom]

My son has ADHD-combined and SLD in reading and math. He also has slow processing speed and difficulty with retrieving information. When tested at age 9, he also had poor working memory. His auditory processing is good; however, he has problems with visual spatial processing.

He did Jungle Memory at home when he was 12. And, when he was retested at the end of that summer, it showed that his working memory had improved.

Jungle Memory has the following three games:

Game 1 (Quicksand) trains your verbal working memory and word recognition skills. It also develops your processing speed.

Game 2 (Code Breaker) trains your visual-spatial working memory.

Game 3 (River Crossing) trains your working memory and math skills.

Jungle Memory has no auditory component. I don't know about Cogmed.

My son did Cogmed at school when he was 14. He did the program with 4 other students supervised by one teacher. They also had a trained Cogmed coach who met with them before the training began, spoke with them on the phone weekly, and sent emails when she felt a student needed encouragement or suggestions. And, as I said above, having a trained Cogmed coach monitoring a student's progress was very important.

From what I was told, the group helped as they encouraged each other and talked about what was difficult. They also celebrated at the end with a pizza party.

[kewpie]

Here is a quick link to the 19 cognitive areas Arrowsmith address:
www.allsinc.com/services/the-19-learning-dysfunctions.html

Having my dd in the program demonstrated one issue no one seems to address in psych evaluations: a sense of time and how much time passes in a given time period. Think of how many kids can't read an analogue clock. While a digital clock may be a substitute, it skips the feeling of how much times passes. It is kind of like the concept of number sense..without it you cannot learn math. Without a sense of time, it is impossible to plan a task or estimate. Most people would call it ADHD but that is not the essence of the problem. My dd has a much better sense of time, when in fact I now realize, she had none at all!

[kewpie]

My son also did Cogmed but I haven't noticed any signifigant gains. I was going to have my dd do it but I re-checked her working memory scores and they were not low.