Driver's Ed, Insurance, etc.

[drjohnson]

So my ADHD twins will be 16 in February, and the sign up for summer Drivers Ed is in March. My plan has been to just let all of these dates roll by with no comment & see how things are next year. But I just got the letter from the school and I'm feeling a little guilty.

How have all of you handled introducing attention-less and hyper-impulsive teens to driving? EEEEK!

[healthy11]

Here's a previous thread with suggestions on teaching ADHD kids how to drive: millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Parenting&thread=12240&page=1

Personally, I think it's important that you feel they are capable enough to handle the responsibilities that come with driving, NOT that you feel guilty just due to their age. Driving is a privilege, not a "given" or an automatic "rite of passage."

I realize no two kids are the same, and that's probably a bigger issue for you, because I know you've mentioned having more problems and less trust with Twin A than Twin B. It would be difficult to allow one to take lessons without the other. Even if they don't get their licenses right away, some of their friends may, and so you'll still probably have to contend with the potential problems that come with easier movement from place to place. I know that in Illinois students have to have at least 9 months of permit experience before they can even attempt to obtain an independent license, but at that time, you might want to consider some of the "tracking software" that can be installed.

I've kept a log book ever since my son got his license 5 years ago, and we still record his mileage (no longer to verify his whereabouts, but to charge him for gasoline usage.) My advice is that whenever you decide to let your girls drive, they have to pay at least a part of the cost. Insurance may be something you have to handle, because it's so expensive, but I wouldn't allow any kid to just have access to a car without footing some of the bill. (And as much as you'd rather not think about it, determine ahead of time what will happen as far as paying for any traffic tickets, fender-benders, etc.)

FYI, although the subject of grades is already more "touchy" when dealing with kids who have ADHD/LDs, some parents I know have used a "No B's, no keys" attitude on letting their children drive...in other words, if they don't get at least a "B" average, they aren't allowed to use the car for social purposes. If they have a job or a late school obligation, then they usually still can drive to it. (Many insurance companies have "good student discounts" for teens who get a 3.0 or better, so there is some logic for a "No B's, no keys" parental policy.)

[bros]

With my school, drivers ed was mandatory sophomore year, regardless of whether or not you turned 16 during sophomore year.

It was solely taking the test to get a learners permit, it acted as our final for the one-marking period course (it was what we did in place of health during sophomore year).

we had to get the 6 hours of driving through an independent driving school on our own time and dime (costs around ~400)

If you have any good rehab hospitals near you, see if they offer driver rehabilitation programs. It might be good to have an OT work with your twins on driving to make sure they pay attention to everything

[drjohnson]

good suggestions

[glopop11]

In New Hampshire we dont't have learner's permits. Once a teen turns 15 1/2, they can drive as long as the person in the seat next to them is a licensed driver over 21. They can take driver's ed as long as they will turn 16 before the class over. So, theoretically, one could get a license shortly after the 16th bday!

Since dd has nvld, no sense of direction and so-so hand-eye coordination I started her driving right at 15 1/2 knowing it would take her awhile to get comfortable. We started in large empty parking lots (churches and schools), then progressed to suburban neighborhoods, then country back roads and so on.

She failed the written test the first time but took it a few weeks later and passed. I never thought she would pass the road test but she did on the first try!

I allowed her to use the car for very short short drives at first, then progressed over several months. Since she got her license in January (2 years ago) I used snow and potential snow as reasons not to allow her use of the car! She really needed alot more practice than is required by law.

I also made it very clear that she would have to buy her own gas and pay for her own insurance and that meant finding a job. I agreed to pay the first six months insurance.

I gave her my old car about a year and a half ago, mostly because I am a single parent who works full time and was going to school so I needed her to transport herself! The car definitely has more than a few more scratches and dings than when I gave it to her!!!

[healthy11]

Fortunately, where drjohnson lives, in Illinois, they've got some of the most restrictive graduated driving permit/licensing rules in the U.S.:

Permit Phase Drivers Age 15
Parent/guardian consent required to obtain an instruction permit.
Must be enrolled in an approved driver education course, and must pass vision and written exams.
A nighttime driving restriction is in place Sunday-Thursday, 10 p.m-6 a.m., and Friday-Saturday, 11 p.m.-6 a.m. (local curfews may differ from the nighttime driving restriction).
Permit must be held for a minimum of nine months.
Must practice driving a minimum of 50 hours, including 10 hours of nighttime driving, supervised by a parent or adult age 21 or older with a valid driver's license.
Must not acquire any driving convictions during the nine-month permit phase.
Number of passengers limited to one in the front seat and the number of safety belts in the back seat.
All occupants under age 19 must wear safety belts.
Cell phone use while driving is prohibited except in the case of an emergency to contact a law enforcement agency, health care provider or emergency services agency.
Permit is valid for up to two years.


Still, knowing that some kids are "less than trustworthy," I would be hesitant to even sign them up for a class just based on their age. (Once a kid has a permit, they may think, "hey, I already know what it's like to be behind the wheel" and take the keys without permission.) FYI, as a teen my own sister secretly had a duplicate key made...One time my sister was supposed to be grounded, and my mom was holding what she thought were all the keys, but my sister ran out of the house and took the car anyway. )

[bros]

NJ requires minimum of 6 hours with a certified driving school

[majorv]

Because of our son's immaturity, we waited until just before his 17th birthday to start the driver training process. We also knew that because of his ADHD and impulsiveness that we wouldn't be the most effective instructors. So, rather than do the parent taught thing like we did with our neurotypical daughter, we sent our son to a commercial driving school for the classroom and initial behind-the-wheel driving. It worked out better for us and him.

[healthy11]

Bros, I highlighted Illinois' much more stringent standards in contrast to the minimal requirements you have in NJ, which you'd mentioned earlier. Although our high schools don't make driver's ed mandatory, those students whose parents want them to obtain a permit have to enroll them in classes, and the students also get 6 hours of driving with their instructors, PLUS they need to meet the minimum 50 hours of driving with a parent or other adult, 10 of which are supposed to be after dark. (Sadly, I know some parents will "forge" the driving records and claim their child has satisfied all the requirements, without actually having taken them on the road as much as they should have during the permit period. Then after the teens obtain their independent licenses, they wonder why their kids have frequent accidents....) From everything I've seen, there's no substitute for actual behind-the-wheel experience.

[beth]

A couple thoughts.

1. I would let driving go for now. I think kids who don't hound you to drive are either not ready to drive or scared.

2. This is what the current research shows. Kids who drive later have fewer accidents but eighteen year olds who have driven for one year have more accidents than 18 year olds who have driven for 2 years. IOW, age helps but so does experience. So there is no perfect answer.

3. My now 18 year old ADD-inattentive son was told he could not get his permit until he was 16. In Florida you only have to be 15 and then drive with a permit for a year. Then he showed no interest and so at 17.5 we told him he had to learn to drive. We live in a urban area and he was intimidated by driving. We told him if he didn't get his permit we would not drive him anywhere but to school. In our area I know several other kids who had to be prodded into driving, so it is not unusual. One of my daughter's friends who is 21 never has learned to drive. I didn't want him to be like her.

4. The reason we told him he had to get a permit at 17.5 years old was that we wanted him to learn to drive at home under our direction. Once he was 18, there were no state requirements. Of course, we could control the car but he could buy a car on his own and get a license with very little practice. The driving test is very easy to pass in Florida.

5. He got his license at 18 after six months of driving with us. As I said, at 18 there are no requirements except passing the simple driving test. We did not let him have anyone in the car with him for six month (a year after he got his permit). He is a very good driver, probably better than my older daughter who does not have ADD. He has, however, got one ticket for speeding. He was driving too fast on a four lane road that has few stop lights on it. It is an easy place to speed and we never punished him for it. But he did pay the ticket which was $280 and had to take a four hour online driving course which with his dyslexia took him 8 hours.

6. We have not had the money for an extra car so our teenage drivers have shared the two cars we already have. (I didn't understand why people bought their kids cars initially but as the one whose car is taken mostly, I would buy a used car for my son, if I could. It is really bad when my daughter is back from college. I know people who have bought one used car for their two teenagers). We made both our kids pay $30 a month for insurance which covered the extra cost for my daughter but not my son. We have not made them pay for gas because honestly it saved us gas, as we no longer had to drive them to wherever and then drive ourselves back. I do think having them pay something is important but every family works that out differently. Our daughter also has got one ticket--for not stopping completely at a red blinking light. Hers was much less as it was before the State of Florida decided to support itself with revenue from tickets.

[bros]

$30 a month for insurance? That is cheap.

It's like 1k a year for insurance here in NJ for three insured drivers (one male under 25)

[healthy11]

Bros, beth said the $30 per month ( times 12 months = $360) covered the EXTRA cost for her daughter but not for her son. It's not the full amount of their total insurance.
(For parents like drjohnson who may not know, having young male drivers increases insurance premiums two to three times more than having young girls on a policy.)

My son had been driving our old 1998 Ford, but last week, after he went to jack it up so he could look for an exhaust leak, and the jack pushed through the floor of the car because it was so rusted, we decided it wasn't worth repairing. Instead, we figured we'd let him use our next-oldest car, an '05 Mazda 4-door with a stick shift. (Although we really all do use whatever car is in the driveway at the time.)

When we went to notify our insurance agent, the agent ran the calculations, and said it was actually cheapest to say that our son would be driving our '06 Dodge Caravan, because then the premium would be "less" expensive. We pay over $1,400 JUST FOR OUR SON per year, and, knock on wood, he's got a good driving record. Granted, we carry more than just the bare minimum coverage, but we feel like we have to, because we're the vehicle owners, so if our son got into an accident and someone sued him (but he has no assets) they would probably also go after us. Insurance is NOT cheap when drivers under age 25 are involved.....

[drjohnson]

Healthy - You've got a great grasp of the issues I'm concerned about. Not only being impulsive with traffic decisions and getting t-boned, but also getting mad and running off with the car. They aren't pestering me about it but are complete back-seat drivers. "Turn signal. Turn here mom. No turn on red! Dad don't unfasten your seatbelt till Mom's completely stopped. Why are we going this way? etc. etc." Based on all that backseat driving, they might be fantastic drivers, but . . .

[healthy11]

drjohnson, having lived with a "troublesome teen" sister, and having my own "challenging child," I know there isn't a "perfect answer" to your situation, but I concur with beth, and say that if your kids aren't begging you to enroll them in driver's ed yet, don't feel you have to sign them up right now. While it might be more "convenient" if you didn't have to chauffeur them from place to place, it can also lead to bigger problems that you might as well avoid as long as you can.

Here's another example of things my sister did as a teen: We only had one car in our family. Obviously, parent needs took priority, but my sister and I were allowed to use it when necessary. I was a "goody two shoes" student, who commuted to college for my freshman year, carpooling with other students most of the time. My sister was a year younger, and still in high school. Her boyfriend and other people she hung around with were more "free spirited" artsy types, who regularly drank and used pot...she denied it for awhile, but once my mom found a baggie of weed in the car. Our mom asked both of us "did we know what it was, or how it got there?" and I recall my sister trying to blame it on "one of the people I must've carpooled with." The thing is, I hadn't even used the car in a number of days... then my mom revealed she found it by the driver's seat, so it wasn't just "randomly left by some passenger."

My sister got p.o.'d at me for a lot of things, but trying to have me take the blame for her illegal activities was just one more incident that drove a wedge between us as we were growing up. I don't know what kind of relationship your Twin A and Twin B have, but if one is more likely to blame the other for stuff that happens in the car or to the car or with the car, I'd be even more wary of allowing them to drive any sooner than you have to....

[drjohnson]

oh blaming is a great game here. My sister was a bit of a pill also. Sometime around 1968 or 69, she got mad & decided to take my mom's car and drive to Haight-Ashbury. I spotted her backing out of the driveway, she stopped thinking I was going to join her, I jumped in and stomped on the brakes instead stalling the engine. I don't know if she ever forgave my treachery.

[dhfl143]

Thanks for the link to the previous thread. I never would have thought of practicing in a cemetery or parking lot during off hours. Those are great suggestions. Our roads here are among the deadliest in the nation -- so I am very anxious about her driving.

[empeg1]

Dr Johnson:
From previous posts, your twins may have additional issues other than ADHD. You have asked about FASD, as there was prenatal alcohol exposure. So, driving, even with a good driver's ed class, your girls are at risk for difficulties with driving. There can be the problem of slow processing. Then there can be issues with sensory overload, a "biggie" for FASD folks (and the inability to process multiple stimuli at once). Then there are attention/focus/distractibility issues. On top of the above, is difficulty with being impulsive, poor judgment, and possible visual perceptual difficulties. My oldest gets repeat tickets. She then does not let me know about the above until the fines are in the stratosphere. And, her insurance is now in the high risk pool- and very expensive. Then too, she has had repeat accidents. In turns my hair grey that she will not wear seat belt unless I am in the car with her. Why- they feel is too uncomfortable. Yes, with her sensory integration issues, it probably does not feel good, but she wore a seat belt all throughout her childhood and teen years. But, not now. Again, poor judgment. And, on it goes

So, I would not feel guilty. Give yourself and your girls the gift of time and as much brain maturation as you can get before either girl gets behind that wheel.

[momfromma]

I will join the group of those who advise you to wait until your daughters ask seriously. I am the mother of two young men (one is 22 and no more a teenager) who do not drive. The oldest got his permit the day of his 16th birthday. Since then. he has tried a couple times with my husband, taken a few lessons, but he does not feel the need to drive as we live in an area with public transportation.

ds2 has studied his driver's ed book. Like your daughters. he is pretty much a back seat driver, but he is also worried that his attention/slow processing issues will be an issue and each time he could have asked to take the test for his permit, he has shrunk from it. I think he can learn better than his brother (if anything, because he is taller), but I do not push for it. In addition, we will need to find somebody who has experience with kids with learning disability. The school suggested he took the driver's ed classes from school (3 kids in a car). I do not think it is a good idea, but it tells you how much the school knows ds!!!)

[michellea]

I agree that waiting is a good option. And, when they are ready, I believe that practice, practice and more practice is critical. This will be harder with two the same age - and I can tell you that "practice" was very hard on my nerves for my oldest who is relatively responsible and attentive. I'm dreading driving with my younger, low processing speed, visual perception impaired son.

In my state kids need a permit for 6 mos prior to getting the license. The written test for the permit is pretty hard. Plus they need a number of hours of drivers ed driving time and parent driving time. The state is considering moving the permit to age 15.5 and requiring a full year of practice. They have found that PRACTICE in addition to maturity helps to reduce accidents. Also - the first 6 mos of getting the license, only family members are allowed in the car unless there is also an adult licensed driver. I loved this - I believe that "friends" in the car can be a HUGE distraction.

[jw]

Hi,

My DS went ahead and got his learner's permit a few months after he was eligible to do it. He took an on-line class that is required to get the learner's permit and we signed up before behind the wheel training with a private company. because if budget cuts he didn't have the option of taking driver's ed through school. I think because of his anxiety it might have been really difficult for him to learn to drive with other students in the car anyway.

He is one of those kids that takes a while to learn new skills but then once he gets it he is OK. So our plan is to keep the learner's permit as long as we can (it is good for 12 months, then you have to take the test again to get a second learner's permit if you need one), and then get the driver's license when he is ready. That way he will have some time to get comfortable with driving before he heads off to college.

I think every kid is different with this - it seems with my friends that for some reason the teenage girls are a lot more interested in getting their licenses and the boys are more willing to wait. Not sure why that is! We cannot afford to buy ds a car, so that might be one reason why he is not pushing to get his license. He is a VERY nervous driver anyway so it will be a long time before I will let him go off by himself..... The only bright side of anxiety is that he isn't impulsive when he is behind the wheel, and he drives REALLY slow!

Good luck, jw

[drjohnson]

OK You guys have convinced me to wait as long as possible. Seniors get first preference for the cheap lessons through the school. So maybe I'll aim for that time frame, at least until something comes along to change my mind. Twin A is so grounded that she has no where to go anyway. And we do get in on Chicago's public transportation system - though it's not that great.

[healthy11]

jw, when you said, "...for some reason the teenage girls are a lot more interested in getting their licenses and the boys are more willing to wait" I could only wish that was the case by me. Around here, it seems like most of the guys, including my son, were anxious to get their licenses as soon as they could. The girls may have licenses, but they prefer boys drive if they're in mixed company.

As I mentioned earlier, I've kept a record of all the mileage my son has put on our cars since he first started driving alone at age 16, and he's averaging around 10,000 miles per year! He's now 21, so over 5 years, that's 50,000 miles ~ if nothing else, I know he certainly has gained a LOT of experience behind the wheel.

[kewpie]

Healthy,
Would it be better for your son to have his own policy so you would not be liable for his accidents? Did you look at that option? Or would he have to have a car in his own name?
I remember years ago, my parents kept me off their policy in case I was in an accident.

[healthy11]

kewpie, as I understand it, he would have to have a car titled in his name in order to get insurance in his own name. We had him get his own insurance for his motorcycle, which he bought and paid for on his own: he holds the title by himself. Surprisingly, the rates he was even quoted for his motorcycle varied by a huge amount. (We're talking a low from Allstate, even compared to companies like Progressive and Geico... State Farm was highest of all, over $2,000, because the agent told us "they don't like insuring anyone under age 25.")

[kewpie]

>State Farm was highest of all, over $2,000, because the agent told us "they don't like insuring anyone under age 25.") <
Thats ironic. I am dealing with them right now about the same issue. My son was in an car accident in November with his classmate who is about 19 or 20. The driver forgot there was no left turn arrow and made a left turn into oncoming traffic. The car slammed into the passenger side where my 19 year old was sitting. Luckily there were airbags but he was very shaken and missed almost 2 weeks of classs due to aches and stress which impacted his grades. My son mentioned that the family got another car and the rates went up.
Luckily, my son agreed to sign a paper appointing me his representative, otherwise they might have gotten off scott free. They called him the morning after the accident and woke him out of a very sedated sleep. When they asked how he was, he said fine and was ready to hang up. Luckliy they made him take down the name and phone number of the agent. Geeez ...

[kewpie]

Oh yeah.. A week after the accident , his other friend who is also 19 decides to dive up to our house to take my son out for his birthday. It was a dark, 40 mile, rainy drive up the freeway. As he takes the exit, he goes a bit too fast, hits the guard rail and does damage to the front and side of the car. He managed to get the car to limp to our house where the engine sputtered and died halfway into our driveway.

[healthy11]

kewpie, I'm glad your son is okay. I'm forgetting...does your son have his license, and if so, does he drive much? I would imagine an incident like you describe could really affect his desire to get behind the wheel.

My son, thankfully, hasn't been involved in worse than a fender-bender, and a few years ago he had a couple of tickets for which he received "supervision," basically meaning they wouldn't count as a conviction or impact insurance rates if he paid a fine, took a short safety refresher class, and avoided any new violations in a given timeframe. (For drjohnson's benefit, since she lives in the same state as I do, here's an explanation of it: bgsalawblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/explaining-supervision-in-illinois/ )

For better or worse, my husband used to do some amateur auto racing, and he was adamant that it would be wisest to teach our son that speeding/drag racing on public streets isn't safe, but if he wants to go fast, then he needs to go to a racetrack. I would've preferred not to even bring up the subject of racing, but my husband figures if he's a conservative guy who likes "putting the pedal to the metal," then our "less conservative son" would be even more likely to "push limits," so we should "lay down the law" to start with. If you ask me, our son still drives too fast around town, but he is very observant and most of his friends say he's the "best driver" they know. (He joined a car club at his college, and they're building a vehicle which he's hoping to drive in a competition against other schools this spring, but I'm not sure how the club members will decide who gets behind the wheel.)

[beth]

We have State Farm auto and they are by far the cheapest alternative for us. I have looked around because I was angry at them because they tripled our homeowner's insurance. In the end, we switched homeowner insurance companies but kept State Farm for auto. Even without the multi-line discount, it is lower. We have had them forever but that didn't seem to matter for homeowners'. Of course, they really do not want to be in home owner insurance business in hurricane prone Florida.

[healthy11]

I've learned a great deal about insurance through our agent, and yes, rates from company to company are different depending on which state you live in, and even what zip code. The situation of teen drivers on family policies is different than that for young drivers on their own independent policies. Beth, your son isn't on his own policy, is he?

I don't know if it's true for all companies, but for individual auto policies, I understand that most of the "top tier" (Allstate, State Farm, etc.) won't accept NEW customers with poor records. State Farm doesn't even want to deal with people under age 25, no matter what their driving record, so individual rates for younger applicants are "through the roof." If you have accidents/moving violations once you're with a "top tier company," your rates will increase, because they're inclined to charge their customers according to risk. On the other hand, companies like Geico and Progressive, I've been told, WILL accept new customers who are less-than-stellar drivers, but they many have more exclusions and coverage limits are usually not as good as you can get with some of the "top tier."

One insurance broker we spoke to (not our company's agent) said that if our son could get cheaper motorcycle insurance with Allstate than Progressive, definitely take it ~ it probably meant they were giving him "credit" for having been on our family auto policy for 5 years without a claim. Progressive "pools" people, and has good drivers paying more in order to reduce the premium costs for some of their worst drivers. Another thing the independent broker told us is that if a person starts with a company like Geico or Progressive, and they have a good driving record and later want to change to a "top tier" company, they may be accepted, but still at a higher rate structure.

Of course, all of the above is just the way the insurance industry operates at the moment...they change their rates/policies so fast, it's hard to keep up from one premium period to the next.... (another note to drjohnson: when students are still driving on permits, you don't have to worry about increased family premium rates....that happens after they get their licenses.)

[beth]

My son is still on our policy, as he doesn't have his own vehicle.

Interesting about tiers of companies and also that for us, over 25 with good record, the lower"tier" companies are more expensive. I called Geico once and it was 25% more than what I was paying.

What does a high "tier" company get you?