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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 8:26:03 GMT -5
I always have a difficult time deciding whether my daughter just doesn't have the stamina to do what she needs to do or if she is learning helplessness.
This is my current example. She had a paper due for her ASL (sign language class). It was a compare and contrast paper of a total communication philosophy versus a bicultural/bilingual philosophy. She had a few web sites to scan, a two page article to read.
Now, when it comes to actually reading.....this appears to be the issue. She learned in middle school with all the support that she just needs to 'scan' for answers rather than actually read. She is the master at this. Didn't work this time.
Her paper was so botched up that she didn't even understand that philosophies are different than approaches of signing versus aural/oral.
Ok, so she prints the web pages and we sit down together. Really not much problem re-stating and understanding. A few tough sentences, a few tough words (e.g. eclectic).
Now I'm sure she can write the paper. BUT, is this a learned helplessness thing or just a lack of reading proficiency? Why can't she do this line-by-line? Is it avoidance?
I realize that there were SOME parts that she would not have understood without some help and re-reading. BUT, how do I move her into this independence? Some of this was poor planning and under-estimating how long it would take. I get that. It's being unable to then realize what she needs to do to self-correct that situation that troubles me.
She's a 9th grader for Pete Sake. I'm totally frustrated with her and ready to move her down in classes. That will almost assure that she will never acquire this skill.
However, I don't think I can take much more. Any suggestions?
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Post by sld123 on Oct 20, 2008 9:10:34 GMT -5
both counseling?
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Post by sisdparent on Oct 20, 2008 9:17:18 GMT -5
IMHO, it's a lot more complicated than just one thing or the other. As the kids go up the grades, survival strategies at one age don't work as well in the next grade. You might want to check out Mel Levine's Myth of Laziness and Misunderstood Minds (www.pbs.org/misunderstoodminds).
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Post by momfromma on Oct 20, 2008 9:18:27 GMT -5
Probably both. My son is like that.
If something is difficult, he will get the feeling that he cannot do it and will not really try. After years of hearing from sped people that it was too hard, his first reaction is to not try.
We are trying to make sure he does his work himself. Math is fine now and we are in the same way for physics (thanks god the teacher is very much hands on), but English and social study are really hard, and his reaction with anything implying reading is to sit and wait.
I have been looking for ways to get him to start, even if it means that he goes and ask me when he does REALLY need help, but it is hard for him.
So, sorry not be offer any help. I am really certain that, for my son, the main problem is learned helplessness, not being able to approach a problem that is difficult.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 20, 2008 9:38:29 GMT -5
Has your dd had to write similar, mini-research papers before?
The topic seems pretty heavy, especially for a 9th grader. Maybe it makes more sense if I had read the webpages and articles. But just the premise of the paper would send many kids into "avoidance" mode.
Is she avoiding other, more straight-forward homework assignments? Or just these complex ones?
Also--is she interested in that assigned topic or bored by it? If my kids were bored by the assigned topic, it didn't matter how much they read or even understood. If they aren't interested, they lack motivation to do it. And if they think an assignment is hard AND boring, they really lack motivation!
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Post by mamak on Oct 20, 2008 9:45:18 GMT -5
Hard to tell but I have made some observations on my DS that makes me believe that reading disabilities and ADHD do effect the quality and completion of his work and he often times just does not even see the omission. Sadly the teacher doesn't correct the work but gives credit for completion so she hasn't a clue either.
What I see is lack of appropriate depth in responses and as I just discovered in some recent work if a worksheet has 2 questions for one problem he answers the first one and moves on to the next problem forgetting he had to give the second answer to the first one.
Last year when DS had to create a magazine on Egypt he had to research a bunch of topics he first had difficulty finding the material to write from. A slow reader is overwhelmed in searching though websites and library sources to find the information. Then after finding the right information and putting it into a composition of his own addressing his audience with all the other parts of writing he had to think of spelling, sentences, and paragraphs. All being done with skills below the grade level he was in. This was not learned helplessness. This was a child who needed the work chunked into smaller pieces so the work did not overwhelm him as he waded through work which he had not yet mastered the skills for. Extra time was needed in order for him to complete each step so they opted to take smaller articles and less of them so he could turn it in on time.
If your dd has not got the reading and writing skills of a 9th grade student, how can she be expected to perform independently like one with out supports like you just gave her.
It all comes down to that story about giving people food or teaching them how to fish. Our kids have to learn how to do these things step by step and we have to provide them the supports so one day they can after repetition and gained confidence they can take over and do them on their own. I find that this is not done in our schools and it comes down to allowing the kids to sink or swim.
Our graduation and exit exams are the evidence of those who sank and those who received the supports and services in order to swim. Never doing the work but guiding the child and being patient will bring them very very far in life no mater what cognitive level they may be at. JMHO
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 9:48:05 GMT -5
sld123; I see your point about counseling, but am not sure how this can help. Frankly, with how much time school takes her already, I'm not even sure where we would put this! LOL
sisdparent; thanks for the reminder. I understand this but don't know how to move her past this phase.
momfromma; I get the feeling you understand where I'm coming from because it's my gut that some of it REALLY is learned helplessness. Everything takes my daughter longer. The problem, as I see it is that at SOME point, she's going to have to either figure out how to overcome this or I'm going to have to put her back in classes that account for this. She claims that adjusted classes will make her feel totally stupid and she doesn't want to do this but yet she's not willing to go the extra mile.
I feel a bit caught in the middle and I'm a personality type that feels that when the going gets tough, the tough get going......(or get put in adjusted classes).
We are currently caught between the wanting to be autonomous but not really following through on some things.
It's most frustrating.
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Post by sld123 on Oct 20, 2008 9:51:02 GMT -5
what are the outcome statements in her iep transition plan?
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Post by mamak on Oct 20, 2008 9:55:37 GMT -5
Oh and Sharon made a good point about whether she had interest in the topic or not. That has a huge impact on comprehending what is read. In fact I really think my DS writes much better when he already real life experience or knowledge of a topic. If it bores him or can not relate to the importance of an assignment he has less enthusiasm. Back to the Egypt assignment the article on tools and weapons was far more interesting than the one on health and beauty. That I think will apply to anybody.
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Post by sharie001 on Oct 20, 2008 9:58:45 GMT -5
Another possibility would be it's neither learned helplessness or too hard.
It may be more of an anxiety issue (which is learned, and occurs over time), and/or avoidance issue.
That is what my son had. I have also found that being "gifted" contributed to the anxiety/avoidance issues. He simply wanted to avoid those thing in which he felt he would not succeed or excell in.
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 10:27:17 GMT -5
sld123 the goals are post-secondary education (to date). So far, no transition plan. Of course, we are reconvening the IEP team as I did not agree with the IEP and I think she needs to be in this meeting. However, she's 14 going on 12 if you know what I mean. I do believe, however, that she would speak up regarding adjusted classes.
mamak....interest in the topic? Hmmm....I can't see that my daughter has much interest in anything that relates to school. She is interested in graphics/photo editing and is self-taught, she also loves field hockey, but, other than that, not a stitch of initiative. She barely keeps her head above water enough to pursue personal interests.
sharie001 - I agree it could be something else because my daughter made a point of saying this while I was giving her h--- about this assignment. She agrees that she looks at something and if it doesn't come easily, her ability to persist is negligible. I think I would say that persistence is the issue rather than anxiety.
I'm so frustrated.
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Post by sld123 on Oct 20, 2008 10:30:10 GMT -5
what she is doing now probably won't work for post school ed.
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 10:37:40 GMT -5
mamak and sharon....completely missed your posts.
No, she doesn't avoid other work. She's very good about completely her work. I didn't think the web sites were too complicated, but I did find that she didn't actually read them and that she did not plan anything prior to putting pencil to paper. She did not realize this was a compare and contrast exercise. She had things all backwards.
Perhaps she had difficulty because this class is all girls and they are not typically 9th graders. Some are 11th graders. Otherwise, the course is her best grade right now. She enjoys the actual signing.
Has she had to write similar papers? Hmmm.....the paper was pretty laid out in a rubric, but, she knew she messed up the draft and still didn't come to seek help in time. I found the websites to describe total communication the same way in 20 different sentences. I mean, how many ways are there to describe that this deaf teaching philosophy is the combination of many methods? Yet some of the sites did just this; saying this same main thought over and over in 80 ways.
BUT, what makes her think that she can actually AVOID the reading? I have seen her be pro-active when I suggested it, but never on her own initiative.
mamak; as far as the depth of responses....same problem here. The teachers just assume it's the best she can do and give her 100% on her homework. Science teacher is the biggest offender this year on her lab conclusions. I hear that frustration. Then, my dd thinks she's done well and doesn't go see how to expand her answers. It's a big circle in which she does not get what she needs.
I want out of the middle. REALLY!
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 10:40:39 GMT -5
sld123 - No kidding about the post-secondary. However, I don't think she has a clue as to what she wants to do. Do other 14 year olds know this? Doubtful. The point of the goal was to keep this option open as she matures.
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Post by SharonF on Oct 20, 2008 11:05:42 GMT -5
coby--
I think your dd is bristling against the amount of work required for a research paper. I don't think it's an LD/ADHD thing or learned helplessness, but those factors make it harder.
I think many kids skim or cut corners when doing homework. Not just kids with LDs/ADHD. They want to rely on what they already know and get the assignment over with. Your daughter may be able to scan the key words when completing other assignments, but not research papers.
My dd's first big research paper was due last year. She did a great job pulling the research on her own...but I realized she didn't want to read it and think about it. She wanted to skim it. She tried to cut a lot of corners. I had to really work with her on marking up the research with different colored highlighters, marking quotes that related to her main themes, then tying all of the information together. This process did not come naturally to her!!
Reseach papers are so very, very different from any other assignment. But your dd has to go through this grueling process to learn that. Maybe she'll have to go through it a few times! And if she's in class with 11th graders, the teacher may not have spent as much time explaining HOW to write a research paper. And even if the teacher provided a great rubric, your dd may not have really looked it.
What makes her think that she can avoid the reading? Because she has for other assignments! If she has gotten full credit for simplistic responses, she has gotten into a pattern. It may be learned helplessness. But...it could be just knowing what she can get away with. Like me typing this right now when I should be doing my real job.
Your daughter is coming from the world of middle school where most assignments were completed in an hour or two. Good research papers take weeks or even months. A mini-research paper should take at least a week. I'm guessing she's not used to that type of complex and involved assignment. And she probably resents that it takes so much time and work.
Now..back to my job!
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Post by mamak on Oct 20, 2008 11:27:17 GMT -5
I see both the prior grading and her not being graded like the other kids allow them to not understand they are lagging behind their peers. So when reality smacks them in the fact they are not prepared. It is much easier to give a kid a better grade than the standards call for than to actually sit down with the kid and take the steps needed to set clear expectations.
Taken an assignment which is long and has multiple steps our kids need to have it broken down into smaller tasks with a time line. If the child has 5 days plus the weekend to complete. Monday gather the research material Tuesday read x pages and start outline Wednesday read x pages continue to outline Thursday Organize into rough draft. Saturday Edit and produce final assignment. Sunday night will then have no stress and all she has to do is put into her backpack.
Huge assignments get my son into a tizzy and he can not focus on anything until it is broken down. Teachers do not do this for him even with it in his 504. Your best to know about all assignments and teach her how to break them down into steps until she can do each one independently and the reading is usually the first step that breaks the camels back in the end if it is not done.
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 12:13:05 GMT -5
Well, I didn't see the assignment as too very difficult. The reading didn't seem to be a huge amount above her level either. So, I'm figuring that mamak has a point and this may be a problem with my daughter just not estimating the time it takes (combined with avoidance). The rubric laid out the work very well. Paragraph one, introduction/answer xx questions. section two, describe, advantages, disadvantages, etc. Include these also xxxxxx. It seemed to be a good format. My dd had some good information in her paper; it just didn't make any sense because she completely missed the big picture that these are philosophies NOT methods. She figured they had to be part of ASL since this is an ASL class. Had she actually read the web sites, she would have known this wasn't the case. She gave me a hugely sheepish look after I made her read it aloud to me. LIKE OOPS......... To her credit, she was teary-eyed at 9:00 pm last night when she FINALLY came to me and said, "My paper SUCKS". I just wanted to hammer her....how could it NOT suck if you didn't read the information? Sigh......Her teacher gave her an extra day on the assignment and she's going to the Writer's Intervention Workshop at school for help with organizing today. Her IEP states that she is to use WIW for every major paper. Yet, there's no accountability for doing this except for my dd. THAT'S going to change. She needs a go-to person at school and she doesn't have one.
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Post by healthy11 on Oct 20, 2008 12:41:31 GMT -5
Coby, you said, "We are currently caught between the wanting to be autonomous but not really following through on some things." I'm unable to offer you helpful advice, because I feel that's where my son and I are caught, too. I'm grateful for everyone's perspectives on the topic, but it's so hard to get our kids to change their ways....
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Post by cinderbell on Oct 20, 2008 13:01:48 GMT -5
A good sign might be that she did go to you and admitted her paper sucked, even if a bit late. Maybe after this experience, she will organize papers better and maybe allow herself more time to write a paper properly? Maybe...this is a live and learn lesson.
I hope writing papers gets easier for your daughter.
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 13:01:54 GMT -5
Well, healthy....OURS is going to change. I've given my dd the ultimatum. She either gives it her all or she's going back a level. I can't take it any more. I don't mind helping, but I will NOT be her cattle prod any longer. She's going to be 15 tomorrow (awww........now I'm sad.....LOL).
At this point, I think it's better to fail high school than to continue the way it is going. I also told her I don't really mind if she stays in school until she's 21. (should have seen the look on her face)
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 13:03:12 GMT -5
cinder....wish this were the first time. I'm sounding like the adults on the Charlie brown cartoons again............
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Post by mamak on Oct 20, 2008 13:54:52 GMT -5
Our Dr recommended a white board be set up for him to plot out his HW schedule. There he can get into what will be done for the longer assignments and split them up by what to do daily. Then once they have this in view it is a mater of not actually doing the assignment with them but if they actually did the part of the assignment then determine if other privileges are allowed such as phone texting, favorite show etc) . The schools do not teach time management we have to if this is where the problem is. WAA WAA WAA WAA WAA WAA WA WA is the universal language our kids hear from us however they can understand it very clearly as the x-box, phone or television is confiscated or they can not hang with their friends on a weekend. Ten percent of what they learn now if they learn it will go with them when they leave so we do have a responsibility to impose rules and rewards LD or no LD. It is damn hard when they take so darn long and they try so hard but what else can we do.
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 14:23:36 GMT -5
You know, mamak, that might be the best suggestion yet. If I could help her to write an assignment down when she first gets it (I didn't know anything about this one because I don't help her with routine stuff any more) and spend 10 minutes a day with me reviewing what she needs to do by when, this might be the best solution.
I'll talk with dd about it when she gets home.
I understand about imposing rules, but my dd works so darn hard and it seems so unfair at this age....but, you are right. She needs to learn that sometimes, she just needs to forgo that personal time. I think I'm most irritated by this because it was a 3-day weekend here and sports are over.
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Post by sharie001 on Oct 20, 2008 15:12:01 GMT -5
Most of us do procastinate and avoid doing things which are difficult. As we get older most of us also adapt stategies to help us get through those things.
I don't like reading assignment material, books, or lenthy things, either. I too am a "scanner". What I've learned to do is cut and paste onto MS Word the web address and under it the key info from that site, then I print it out, organize info and put it in my own words. My short-term memory, especially regarding reading is aweful. In high school & college I have gotten away with (in lieu of reading books, etc.) watching the movies, reading cliff notes, etc.. My grades didn't suffer as a result of not reading the book.
Does she have assistive tech?
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dma
Full Member
Posts: 47
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Post by dma on Oct 20, 2008 16:22:49 GMT -5
I was wondering about assistive technology too. My ds has WordQ and Kurzweil via his IEP. If he scans something into Kurzweil, it will read it back to him. Kurzweil will also let you highlight sentences or parts of sentences with different colours and then copy the highlighted sections to a document. This creates an outline for a paper very easily.
WordQ can read anything in Word. I haven't tried it with websites yet, but you can copy the website contents to Word and then have WordQ do the reading. Your daughter has CAPD and short term working memory, doesn't she? Does that mean reading is difficult for her?
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Post by cobyseven on Oct 20, 2008 18:35:58 GMT -5
My district won't consider an AT evaluation without a fight. They won't even let her bring her laptop to school with word prediction software that I buy for her.
Yes, dma, my dd has CAPD, working memory difficulties, and language acquisition delays. Books on tape don't help her. She actually reads better than she listens. She had some CBA measures done last year which put her in a high risk category (although she returned to public school in 6th grade reading on grade level). She is falling further and further behind in reading but it is still her best modality. The school turned the CBA around and said, "Oh, gee, she can get the answers all correct if she is given extra time" -- which absolutely is NOT the purpose of the CBA, and not at all indicative of trying to keep up with the demands that are easy for her peers.
Anyway, I could really get on a rampage there.
We are using soon a state facilitator at our IEP meeting. If we can't reach an agreement then I will move toward filing complaints for FAPE violations.
That's a whole other story. My point here is that I need to make sure my dd is doing EVERYTHING she can do before I go tearing out on filing complaints and due process. That's 1/2 of my frustration.
Yep, the AT would probably help her. The school won't consider it.
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Post by greenie on Oct 20, 2008 18:50:56 GMT -5
For a while the "school powers that be" were calling my son impulsive. I just about started throwing punches. He is no more impulsive then the next kid. I finally made them see that J was "hurrying through" some work because it was indeed too hard. He wanted to complete it quickly to move on to something else. This is hardly impulsive, but an avoidance messure in my opinion. My son is quite tenacious. But .... over the years sometimes he doesn't want to tackle academia because he is painfully aware of how long it takes him to grasp the task at hand. I think any young person with an LD is going to get tired of banging their head against a wall. So...some learned helplessness and some of it is just too hard. Good luck..
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Post by sharie001 on Oct 20, 2008 19:36:41 GMT -5
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Post by jisp on Oct 21, 2008 4:52:56 GMT -5
I agree with Greeneyes, it is often hard to tell what is learned helplessness and what is just frustration and avoidance due to challenges from the LD and what is just your child being a typical 14 year old child (as what she did is very typical even for normal teens).
I do think that one issue that I see as a problem for many parents these days is an unwillingness to let your kids fail. We are so afraid that they will fall off the railroad tracks and suddenly have doors closed on them if they do fail that we do everything we can to support and help them stay on track, including helping them with assignments that they should in fact take ownership of themselves.
How does one do this with an LD teen? So many of us are worried that our LD kids are emotionally fragile and will give up, tune out and shut down if we don't support them. And it is equally hard to let our LD kids fail because school staff will often accuse our kids of being Lazy and not trying hard enough even when they are working twice as hard as their peers. But if you are able to keep communication open then you can indeed let your child fail. The key is to ask them afterwards how they felt about what happened. Did they try their best? Did they work hard at the assignment? If they did work hard what things got in the way of their doing a better job on the assignment? Could they benefit from extra support with writing? If so who and how can they get it? Start teaching them these problems solving skills at age 14 and you will end up with a self-advocating-self aware LD young adult, which is what we all want. But if you come in and read the paper and tell your daughter that it is not good and then tell her why it is not good and what she needs to do to make it better, you are just holding her on the rail road tracks and not teaching her how to stay on them herself. Does that make sense?
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Post by sharie001 on Oct 21, 2008 6:51:06 GMT -5
Jisp,
That makes perfect sense. It's like feeding someone fish for a day or teaching them to fish. I do believe before we let them sink or swim, we need to alleviate some of their frustration when possible, such as the use of AT, etc., so they don't feel so overwhelmed, frustrated, etc.. Then it's up to them. We put the water in the tub and lead the horse to the water but we can't make them drink.
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