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Post by teacherabc on Jan 22, 2015 22:59:07 GMT -5
Text from dad this evening: "He not only lies but likes to manipulate people." Wow!
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Post by kewpie on Feb 5, 2015 10:57:32 GMT -5
I am concerned with this "eternal punishment" about missing lunch time. If this kids does have an LDs, this punishment is excruciatingly punitive and unfair and it probably creating more problems than it is solving. EVERY person needs a break imagine if you have to work all day without a break, not only is it illegal, its cruel. His degenerating behaviors may result from this, consider the possibility, he feels trapped and has no where to turn. Before my DD got her EF fixed, she too would lie about her assignments, work turned in, etc. Its was easier to say it was, than deal with the consequences, at least in the moment, or she really didn't remember or confused it with another assignment. She could not write an expository paper to save her life (it requires organization and logic to compose) but she could produce an imaginative narrative which is far easier to write than a report. After she got her EF fixed , she could produce an 8 page research paper with minimal, if any support.
Nothing irritates me more when a child produces a narrative, so he or she is deemed NOT to have a writing disorder. Imaginative narratives are far different animal than writing a report. Reports require skills like understanding summaries, supporting arguments, critical thinking, understanding your audience, theory of mind etc.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 7, 2015 18:38:38 GMT -5
Sorry, Kewpie, I did not see your reply. While I agree, this boy has pretty much not produced anything in more than a month in most of his classes and basically, it is not like we can force him to work anyway--mostly he just sits there and plays computer games.
Flash forward...it has been a month and dad hasn't followed up on the 504 or anything. He hasn't said why. The kid hasn't handed in any homework in any class but one in a month. He didn't do a global history essay. He stopped doing labs. He is failing almost every class. The simple answer, that even most of the teachers subscribe to, is that he is lazy. Part of the problem is that he lies and is manipulative and argumentative. In some ways, he seems to be defiant and oppositional except that he is not in peoples' faces about it or loud. He won't take any suggestions or try anyone's suggestions. We now have Saturday school and I went today and even though he is not a SPED student (or even one of my students at all), he came to my room because he knows me and doesn't know the other teacher. He sat in front of the computer for two hours. He spent about a half hour reading an article that he needed to use for the paper. He spent the rest of the time literally sitting in front of the computer looking at the screen. He had already had the intro, and the quotes but nothing else and added nothing--just stared at the screen. I spoke to him and he said he was thinking and that he couldn't write anything unless it was correct.
Also, a couple of weeks ago, he gave away the ending of the class book to his friends and said that he was bored one day and read the whole book. Then about a week later, he took a test on the book and did four questions. He told the teacher that he hadn't read the book. Yesterday, he took an open book quiz on the book. Only completed four questions--got them right but that was all he did. Tests were always his strong suit.
It seems to me that this boy is disintegrating even more academically. No one seems to care or want to do anything about it and I don't know what to do or to try.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 7, 2015 21:24:29 GMT -5
When you initially posted, you said math was a strong suit for the boy, but now he's failing almost every class...I can't help but wonder, again, if there's some kind of substance use involved, along with other his emotional issues. I feel the best thing to do is tell dad what you observed today in the Saturday session, and ask dad whether he's been able to schedule a comprehensive physical exam and if the boy is getting counseling yet. We don't know what else the dad is dealing with, but just being reminded that someone else is concerned about his son may encourage him to follow through.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 7, 2015 22:51:15 GMT -5
I don't know about the physical exam. The boy has started in counseling. He missed one session but has otherwise been consistent. Dad has had some difficulty with follow through; he has talked for a long time about getting a 504 but hasn't done it. I did share my observations.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 8, 2015 13:12:24 GMT -5
Since you say the boy started counseling, but his performance continues to decline, a comprehensive physical exam might reveal whether there is a substance use factor, or some other underlying problem.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 8, 2015 14:14:44 GMT -5
I have suggested that. However, dad appears to get around to things in his own time. He also said he was going to apply for a 504 and that was a couple months ago.
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Post by eoffg on Mar 9, 2015 9:26:07 GMT -5
While we have 'Oppositional Defiant Disorder'. This raised to me, the idea of an 'Oppositional Disorder', without the Defiant element? Where he looks for opportunities to be oppositional? His turning up to the Saturday school when not required was interesting? As it provided him with opportunity to not do what is expected?
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 9, 2015 17:14:14 GMT -5
That actually did occur to me as well; he is more quietly defiant than in one's face defiant. His dad told him he had to go so there may have been only so far he would go, because he tries to avoid confrontations when possible. However, I and other teachers have noticed other instances where he has sat there looking at a paper or an assignment for a long period of time before doing anything, where I don't think he is being oppositional, unless he is generally being oppositional to the idea of having to do any work in school. He has said to me upon occasion that he sits there because he doesn't know what to write or how to start. Saturday, he said he couldn't write anything unless it was going to come out right. I know that his teacher last period said he was going to be given another opportunity to write an essay that he did not write. I walked in at the beginning of the period and it didn't look like he was doing anything productive. But I didn't stay. I am waiting to hear back from the teacher to see if he did anything. There is an in class essay later in the week, so we will see what happens there.
His dad said that the therapist wants to speak with me and I am waiting for a release. But this conversation should happen later in the week. I asked the dad again about the physical exam. He said that he had had one when he tried out for football, no problems. However, I am assuming that this was in September. However, while he has deteriorated some, this doesn't seem really different from the beginning of last semester when he wasn't yet on my radar.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 9, 2015 20:37:29 GMT -5
Did he "make" the football team? If so, did the coach find him to be difficult to deal with? With failing grades, I presume he would not be eligible for any school activities, but maybe the rules are different in your state?
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 9, 2015 20:57:57 GMT -5
No, he couldn't make the team because of his grades (even if the school had rules, I am sure dad wouldn't allow it).
I think he is lying about submitting a paper...he told me this morning he had. Teacher said no. Then at lunch, he said he thought he had submitted it. I told him he needed to submit it at the end of the day. This evening, he claimed to have turned it in. Teacher said unless he snuck in, he didn't. Teacher is going to be out sick tomorrow, so she said I should get his paper, if it does in fact exist, and put it with the rest (I co teach a different section of the class and am in the room). I told dad, if he did the paper, then he could send it to me and I would print it out, and if I find it in the bin tomorrow, no harm done. This was a couple hours ago. Still haven't gotten it. I will know by tomorrow in any case. Also claims to have finished another essay after school. We'll see if that is true as well.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 10, 2015 17:37:32 GMT -5
Neither was true. Finished one essay at 10:30 at night and emailed it to me at his father's insistence. Not sure about the other because he went back during lunch. However, the teacher gave him a fill in the blanks essay--as if he was someone with pretty significant accommodations--and he still had trouble. She said he was "all over the place."
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 11, 2015 21:13:49 GMT -5
So,his dad is freaking out a little. After releases went back and forth, his son's therapist called.I spoke with the therapist and told her what I observed about the student's writing difficulties, attention issues and organizational issues. The therapist told me that the team would be meeting on Tuesday to see what the next step would be but that he would need a psychiatric evaluation. This came as no surprise since you need an MD to sign off on the 504 and I told the father this a while ago. The father left a message for me earlier today and I wasn't able to get back to him. He was upset but didn't say why. I am guessing it is because he didn't remember what I had said or didn't understand. Or it could be that he is concerned that this is turning out to be a bigger thing than he thought and is afraid it won't be done in time. I am just not sure yet. I guess I will see tomorrow. The therapist seemed very nice and was hoping that a teacher would be able to once or twice, ask him when they notice he is zoning out, if he could write down what he is thinking about. I will have to talk to his teachers about that since I don't actually have him as a student this semester. We'll see what happens.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 12, 2015 20:07:20 GMT -5
Therapist told dad to apply for an IEP, not a 504.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 12, 2015 21:38:00 GMT -5
I am trying to find out why the therapist said that...
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 12, 2015 22:37:36 GMT -5
Is the therapist in private practice? Does she have a school social work background? Until testing is done, I don't see how anyone can tell what the boy's needs really are.
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Post by bros on Mar 12, 2015 22:51:33 GMT -5
Is the therapist in private practice? Does she have a school social work background? Until testing is done, I don't see how anyone can tell what the boy's needs really are. Therapist might want to try to get the student the most legal coverage - maybe thinks they might need some remediation?
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 13, 2015 7:53:41 GMT -5
Given the initial description of his emotional difficulties, I'm unsure what the real problems are....I wonder if the dad knows anything about the student's earlier years of schooling, and whether he was struggling before the mother & father separated? Could old records/report cards be obtained from whatever school the boy attended when he was living just with the mom, before the "unidentified crisis" occurred? If the problems are more social/emotional than academic, I'm not sure if remediation, especially at the high school level, would be very useful.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 13, 2015 17:34:57 GMT -5
From what I understand, he was a decent student in middle schools. However, it was elsewhere. Also, it happens frequently that kids do okay in middle school and then, if they have a disability, it interferes more when the work gets harder (in high school). This happened with my best friend's daughter. Yes, there is always a question as to how much is disability, how much is other stuff, but that is true with many of our identified kids. Few have perfect lives. I have one, a senior, who is still in and out shelters and has had domestic abuse at home. I have no doubt that this has been a factor in his academic problems.
As far as the therapist is concerned, I don't think she is saying that she knows for sure that he would qualify for an IEP; I think she is suggesting that dad let the system sort it out. I also thought that she said that they could do psychological testing there (the kind that we do for the IEP) but that there is a long wait time. I think that dad has expressed his concerns about having extra time for the Regents exam and she is probably thinking about that, although I suppose that she could have just suggested the 504 for that.
In any case, I told my supervisor that he wants to file and all he needs to do is to give his son a letter requesting an evaluation to give to our school psychologist.
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Post by eoffg on Mar 14, 2015 4:59:09 GMT -5
A full evaluation could be very helpful? Though I wonder if he has a major issue with his frontal lobe and pre-frontal cortex? Which is basically where executive function occurs, and without this? One is 'all over the place'. As it seriously effects planning, and knowing where to start and how to work through something.
Where I note that wrote that he will sit staring at a blank screen for ages, and still not know where to start? As it's not coming together in his mind. Which could also be effecting his 'task prioritization' abilities?
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 14, 2015 5:33:03 GMT -5
I think I am with you. Yes, there is some truth to what Healthy11 says: if the problems are more social and emotional, then getting services may not help him succeed. But as I said, the existence of such problems does not preclude learning difficulties as well. The sad fact of the matter is that we do not succeed with everyone. It's impossible. Sometimes it is hard to know how much of what we do helps and which parts help, and how much of it is growth and maturity. For example, I have a student now who is still having tremendous difficulties. He has been failing most of the classes he takes since he started high school (he is in his second year now), despite having reasonable skills. Last semester, I was his "untrained" mentor. Didn't do anything. This semester, he has a trained mentor. That, maybe, and maturity are STARTING to have an impact. Instead of waiting until the end of the semester to catch up on late work, he is seeking help and is closer to on time. He is choosing to stay after school and come on Saturdays and to have people hold his phone which is a distraction. My point is that is is a SPED student but it is hard to know how much of his issues are social/emotional and how much is a learning disability but that doesn't mean having am IEP and being evaluated hasn't been useful for him. I think the same is true with this other young man. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it. It sounds like the therapist suspects some form of ADD or ADHD. I don't really see the hyper part but who knows. Perhaps some writing disorder. That is the thing that is hardest for him. It appears that he SOMETIMES can produce written work but it is inconsistent. It ALWAYS takes him a long time. Recently, in Social Studies, he could not produce something that was halfway decent in any reasonable length of time. Eventually, the teacher gave him a fill in the blanks essay form. Even with that, it still did not include everything the task required (it required 4 of the sources and some outside information; interestingly, he included more outside information than sources and more of the outside info was accurate than the interpretation of the sources). In English, he recently produced a short essay written at home about human rights that was a paragraph short but had strong analysis but was late. Then he produced an in class essay that was also well written about a book where he had completely failed the last two tests because he hadn't read the book, again, with good analysis. However, he had to come back to finish after school and at lunch--took a very long time, and still more or less lacked a conclusion. I am also convinced that he still hasn't finished the book but because they could do an outline at home, probably figured out that he could go on line, find quotes and the sections of the book and write the essay anyway (HP was fully capable of doing that too--like this kid, it doesn't tend to get you an A, but if you have a certain level of competence, you can get a B or a C+ on a paper without having read the book at all. This kid got a C+, B-, which for him was a good grade on a paper).
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 14, 2015 5:44:50 GMT -5
It's interesting. I was talking to the school psychologist. We were talking about whether this boy might or might not qualify. Of course, we have to see what the testing says. I haven't tested his reading but from what I have observed and heard orally, I suspect his reading level is at grade level or pretty darned close. From what I have been told, he excels at math. But what she said struck me was that if we tested a lot of kids in the school who don't currently get services, they would probably qualify...
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 14, 2015 8:41:09 GMT -5
I'm glad the school psychologist and you are talking. For what it's worth, my son was strong in math, but struggled with "where to start," on other assignments. My son is very bright, but has ADHD, along with dyslexia and dysgraphia. Even with dyslexia, his reading comprehension was above average, so long as he had extra time to re-read materials. His output, however, especially of written work, has always been below average, and his executive function/organizational skills are weak. It took years for the school to acknowledge his struggles, but he didn't have the emotional issues or "red flags" of failing all his classes, like your student. I hope the boy you're trying to assist can get the help he needs.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 14, 2015 13:46:43 GMT -5
Our current school psychologist is really good. She is going for her Admin license and I am afraid we will lose her one day. I talk to her all the time. She actually gets that this kid is bright but may nonetheless have learning disabilities. It is amazing how many teachers are reacting negatively to the idea of him being evaluated; viewing him as simply lazy.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 15, 2015 13:09:15 GMT -5
Dad will be giving the student a letter requesting an IEP tomorrow.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 15, 2015 13:24:20 GMT -5
I hope he realizes that it's a process of evaluations, not that an IEP will be granted automatically...
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 15, 2015 13:31:41 GMT -5
I have told him this and he knows that social history needs to be taken and testing needs to be taken.
Not that I have told him this, but we haven't had anyone in a long time who has been evaluated and not given an IEP. More typically, the parent writing a letter has occurred after teacher reports have been generated and on the basis of those, we have advised the parent to request an IEP, whereas here, the father decided to do it on his own, with the encouragement of the therapist. One thing that has occurred to me is whether, if one is granted, there may be a basis for emotional disturbance here versus learning disability (the lack of empathy and emotion).
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 30, 2015 17:35:36 GMT -5
Rather disappointingly, but not altogether unexpectedly, this young man has gotten himself into serious trouble at school. He brought little smoke bombs to school and then distributed them to three other boys who set them off in the hallway during the school day. While they all got into trouble, he got into much worse trouble because when administrators searched his bag, they found a weapon, a small knife that people use between their fingers. I am absolutely shocked that he is getting a principal's suspension and not a superintendent's suspension; I am guessing that it is because he hasn't been in trouble here before. Now I really am wondering about emotional disturbance. I will be interested in finding out what his reaction to getting into trouble is.
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Post by healthy11 on Mar 30, 2015 18:33:48 GMT -5
You may want to tell the boy's therapist what happened, if you still have approval to speak to the person.
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Post by teacherabc on Mar 30, 2015 20:03:23 GMT -5
I didn't want to call the parent tonight because I am sure that he is needing to deal with his son. I did send him an email suggesting that he do that. Dad is coming in tomorrow to speak to the Assistant Principal about this. I will try and see if I can speak to him then.
I doubt that the AP who is dealing with this knows that the child is being evaluated. Do you think I should clue her in?
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