LD school denied student due to low working memory

[halogirl]

No, they did not have my son sit in a the school to see where he was nor have they meet him. He is behind his peers which is why he needs Carroll or Landmark. I would prefer Carroll because of the location but I have not ruled out Landmark. I do not believe he is the only 9 yr old with dyslexia at his level at that school for grouping. Obviously, they do not discriminate due to a disability but to say they are not selective to a fault is hard for me to believe. I understand there are degrees of dyslexia but the very thing that makes someone the dyslexic is too severe (low WMI) is absurd. I would be very upset if I went to the eye doctor and he saw that I have bad eye sight and in need of glasses. However, my deficit was too severe to provide them.

I did ask the school to re test him but I was told no. I will take MichelleA advice and request updated testing.

[sld123]

like i said, wisc may not have been an appropriate iq test. what were his other scores?

a mom's son with dyslexia, just got to private school a yr ago, grade 8 now, is flourishing and his wm almost does not exist, according to his wisc

have you looked into rave o at tufts u? dr wolf has emailed parents back with helpful info.

[halogirl]

The testing was done at Children's in Boston, who insist Carroll or Landmark are the only schools for his profile.

WISC IV

Verbal Comp- 106
Perceptual reasoning - 105
wm- 86
processing- 83

WIAT-11

Reading- 68
Math- 84
written language- 84
oral language- 139

I do not know what rave O is or Dr Wolf.

[jisp]

Halogirl I hear your frustration with Carroll. And I also understand how frustrating it is that all these "professionals" who have seen your son feel say the Carroll School is the appropriate placement when Carroll is telling you they are not. PLEASE understand that we had a whole team of professionals tell us that this one school was the best and only placement for our son. And then that placement turned out to be completely wrong. Neuropsychologists are not always aware of the subtle changes or the shifts in peer groups that occur at these schools. And that is what happened with our son. The peer group at the out of district school everyone thought was so great the year my son went there was not an appropriate match for our son. Meanwhile the peer group at a school that all these professionals had ruled out because they felt that this school had kids who were more severe than our son would of been perfectly wonderful for our son. Unfortunately because we went to the placement everyone was so excited about we wasted valuable time and by the time our son got to the second placement he had been scarred by the first placement and was unable to connect with the peers at the second school, who then all graduated that spring.

If it makes you feel any better, when my son applied to Carroll and Landmark for 5th grade we were told that due to his very complex neuropsychological profile it was likely that neither school would have a placement for him because of the challenge of finding a grouping that would meet his needs. I was besides myself with worry because my son needed to be in an all day OG program. We were fortunate that both schools actually managed that year to have groupings that would work for our son, so we had a choice. But you do need to know that your son is not that unique in being rejected by Carroll. Trust me your son would not be happy nor would he make progress if the grouping at Carroll were not suited to his challenges. He will only end up feeling defeated if his peers at a school like Carroll make progress while he continues to struggle.

Have you visited Carroll yourself? It is important to look around at the peer group and see if you can find kids who are like your son. I also agree that maybe more testing needs to be done. Again if you email me privately I can give you the names of some wonderful neuropsychologists in the area, so you don't have to go all the way into Boston. I have to say my son was tested by a bunch of people, including somebody from Children's. I also am an advocate and have read many neuropsychological tests for friends and clients. The best reports I have seen have come from some of the neuropsychologists in private practice that I know. And definitely don't rule out Landmark. Initially we were told that Landmark would be better for our son due to his complexity. We chose Carroll because of distance and because there were a great group of neighborhood boys attending Carroll making it better socially for our son. But looking back (my son is now 18) I suspect that the slightly more customized approach of Landmark would of been better for our son and might of resulted in our son not needing intensive cognitive therapy in high school to help him learn at the level that he wanted to be learning. Carroll addressed the dyslexia but it didn't address my son's slow slow slow processing and the fact that he needed specific study tools and coping mechanisms to navigate in the mainstream.

[SharonF]

halo--

Welcome. I strongly urge you to have your son re-evaluated now that he's on meds. My dd's IQ scores went up significantly after going on ADHD meds.

She still has LDs and fine motor problems. And wide scatter. But on ADHD meds, we were able to get a clearer picture of her abilities. And a clearer picture of her areas of difficulty.

That knowledge is important, regardless of where your son goes to school.

Good luck!

[sld123]

Dec 21, 2009 20:42:40 GMT -5 halogirl said:

The testing was done at Children's in Boston, who insist Carroll or Landmark are the only schools for his profile.

/maybe a 3way conversation might help, but it can be worse on a child with going to a school who really doesn't want them

your child is bright, seems gifted in oral lang.!

WISC IV

Verbal Comp- 106
Perceptual reasoning - 105
wm- 86
processing- 83

WIAT-11

Reading- 68
Math- 84
written language- 84
oral language- 139

I do not know what rave O is or Dr Wolf.
ase.tufts.edu/crlr/raveo.html

[kewpie]

>He is behind his peers which is why he needs Carroll or Landmark<
I understand. However even LD schools have limits as to "how far behind they will take a child" . I agree with you that he doesn't seem to be "out of place" per se. How many people have you talked to at Carroll? Did you get a higher up?
I too have had my son rejected by LD schools but we eventually got placement. Luckily most of the schools had a "shadow day" where he attended class and they could see that he was more than just his "scores". One the face of his evaluation, the numbers looked pretty gloomy, but he showed himself an involved student.

[halogirl]

I have seen the school and meet some of the students. It is hard to say if it is the right fit or not as I said before "there is no perfect fit for any student". What has me so concerned is our town has admitted they can not educate due to his severe LD's which is evident. Then he is referred to a school that has the resources to educate him but they are not willing to take on the challenge either. We have looked into out of district schools that have language based programs but they do not want to take children out of their district. There are not many options left besides collabrative programs which is where he is presently and not being educated or with his peers. Plus, they are far from LRE which is why HE questioned why he was in this class. He felt himself it was very secluded from the rest of the school and that the kids had were hard for him to relate to. He has very empathtic and did not say anything for a year until he told his therapist how he felt. There are not many other options for his age group that teach LD's besides Carroll and Landmark. If anyone can suggest one, I am open to suggestions.

[aterry]

This is a great thread with many excellent posts. The situation is that we need more schools that have expertise in handling a variety of special education needs. When my son was placed in a private school, the excellent Summit in Queens, NY, it was because they had a grouping where the students (only 6, including him) had very similar issues. I learned that the school gets 5 applicants, per day, that they cannot accommodate. I felt so lucky for my son but also so dismayed for the other students. There are not enough of these schools and the public schools have not developed the expertise. AND the funding isn't there for more schools or to develop the expertise in the public schools.

[kewpie]

> AND the funding isn't there for more schools or to develop the expertise in the public school<
Sometimes there is no DESIRE to be trained or develop expertise because some staff think "they know it all" already.

[sld123]

did you reach dr wolf?

'We have looked into out of district schools that have language based programs but they do not want to take children out of their district. '

in pa, the st doe/pde would be brought in on the above

[sld123]

www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/71b-10.htm

[aterry]

Kewpie, I agree that the desire has to be there. I'm always shocked by the lack of curiosity among my daughters teachers--they have absolutely no interest in learning more about any LD. (of course I've also witnessed this with doctors and other professionals, even at my workplace which is a college and where curiosity should be the main ingredient).

[michellea]

Interesting. I just returned from my son's neuropsych evaluation. One of the questions she asked me is why I chose x school over y school even though y is much closer. I explained that ds was not accepted to y school. She was surprised as she worked at y school and was very familiar with the profile of the students and though ds fit the profile perfectly.

Her response?

Perhaps at that time there was not an appropriate grouping for him........

Yes, I am still angry at school y - I was devastated by their rejection. But, would I claim "discrimination"? No. Perhaps there wasn't a grouping as the neuropscych hypothesized. Perhaps they saw something funky in his profile. Who knows - but I do know it wasn't discrimination. Just a case of them exercising their right to apply their application process. A process can be fallible without being discriminatory.

[michellea]

One other idea - I had a client that had private tutoring and Commonwealth Learning Center for a year until he found an appropriate placement. I wasn't involved in this placement myself - but I saw it in his records.

He went to commonwealth daily for about 4 hours for literacy and math and then he returned to his school for specials and content area classes. This isn't ideal in that it is one on one instuction. But, maybe this would help your son get up to speed so that he could find a grouping at Carroll or Landmark. There are locations in Danvers, Needham, and Sudbury. They are a non-profit and contract out with public school districts on occasion. www.commlearn.com/

[aterry]

Regarding the turn downs and how frustrating it is. Before being accepted at Summit my son was turned down by Churchill. He is dyslexic and was way below grade level in reading. They said they don't take any student who is more than two years below grade level in any subject. I don't understand how any child even got funding from the state if they weren't more than two years behind. It's a Catch 22. It is very, very frustrating, I know. We were lucky because we liked Summit better than Churchill, anyway. If you really feel strongly about Carrol, you can start lobbying--by which I mean calling advocates who might have good connections at the school who the school might trust. If the advocate paints a picture of your son fitting in, the situation might change. In NYC I've heard of parents getting placements in private schools by contacting their Congressman although I'm skeptical about that.

[sld123]

if double deficit, a special grouping would be needed

[halogirl]

Where is a child with double deficit dyslexia supposed to be educated? The school system has admitted they can't do it, Carroll a school specializing in dyslexia can't do it. The fact is my son will never have a good processing speed or working memory score due to the way his brain is wired. Reading will ALWAYS be something he will struggles him but does that mean he does not deserve a education? I respect the fact that our public school admitted they do not have the resources however Carroll has the resources, programs, qualified staff. I was told that "they have a specific admission critera and that kids that do not meet that criteria tend to struggle". He has been struggling and will continue to struggle no doubt but when is someone held accountable?

[sld123]

did you reach dr wolf?

[michellea]

There are plenty of students at Carroll with double deficit. In fact, they use RAVE-O in grades 2,3,4. Again, based on what Halo says, Carroll is concerned that there are not appropriate groupings at this time. They are expanding their enrollment, and perhaps in time there will be appropriate groupings.

But, I wouldn't get stuck on one aspect of his profile. It is possible that there are kids there with similar WISC scores, but perhaps they've been there awhile and are further ahead in reading. Or, maybe there are already 8 of them (which makes a grouping) and there aren't enough for a second group with that profile.

I would stay pleasently persistent, but consider other options including Landmark, possible LMB in Arlington, MaryAnne Wolf's summer program at Tufts or Commonwealth Learning Center. He needs instruciton as you wait for the final decision, and it is important to get that going - it could open some doors in the future.

AND your school system should be helping you with this. They've agreed to the placement - now they must help you find it.

[sld123]

yeah, what is the st doe doing to help?

[jisp]

Jan 6, 2010 16:05:23 GMT -5 halogirl said:

The fact is my son will never have a good processing speed or working memory score due to the way his brain is wired. Reading will ALWAYS be something he will struggles

I wouldn't make any assumptions about what your son may or may not be like as he matures. Yes he might have double deficit dyslexia right now, but brains mature and change. I know one boy with double deficit dyslexia who struggled with reading until he got to High School at Landmark where his sophomore year things suddenly clicked. He is now a freshman at college.

I know that what you are going through is difficult. But be patient. And follow Michellea's advice and push your school district to get your son the services he needs. You are fortunate that Carroll is not the only option and that you live in an area rich with services.

[halogirl]

At first they did say the grouping which I said his grouping would be changed from 5th grade to 4th grade because he is so behind he would repeat 4th. Then in the second consideration they stated his "While Carroll is a 766 approved school, we do have very specific admissions criteria, and students who do not meet this criteria tend to struggle mightily." So, it was not the grouping the 2nd time around it was still the scores regarding his working memory and processing. I have a application at Landmark and am waiting for a response. What is LMB in Arlington? I have a email to Dr. Wolf and have made a copy of the summer program at Tufts for consideration. The town did find a program in Reading that has a language based class that would be willing to take him, I am going to see it on Friday the 8th. The only concern I have it is a public school not a chapter 776 school, so there is no accountability like there would be in a 776 school. I have spoken to someone at st doe and they gave me Landmark and Carroll as the 2 schools that fit his profile for his age. The other schools had kids with PDD, NOS etc. the same as where he is now. Everyone agrees that is he correct fit.

jsp- I was told from the developmental staff at Chlidrens Boston, he would out grow some of the ADHD attention issues that effect his academics. However, based on his the literature they gave me from (Wolf and Bowers 1999) the children with a deficit in these two areas processing and short term memory gives rise to the lowest level of reading performance. And without EI they will struggle with reading through his life. I have read a lot about this since then and would have to agree because my brother suffers from the same double deficit and continues to struggle with reading at age 31. I do think he will be able to read silently and at his own pace but to read aloud fluently will most likely always bae a struggle, since it is so taxing on his working memory.

[sld123]

after 1 yr of ps in nj, my friend's son, with double deficit dyslexia and adhd, has made exceptional progress, and is going to hs next yr. she met dr wolf, btw, how i got turned on to dr wolf's stuff.

[halogirl]

I can not still wrap my brain around the reasons for not accepting his admissions. Neither can the developmental dept at Children's, they even sent a letter to Carroll ?ing why he was denied. I have looked numerous times on the ma doe web site, is there a appeals process? Can one appeal the denial of admission of a private school for FAPE if they are a approved 766 school?

[jisp]

halogirl,
I was told by a neuropsychologist at Children's that my son probably would never read for pleasure. They could not of been more wrong. My son ended up at home for large chunks of the years between 8th and 11th grade. What did he do when he was home? He read. At first he read easy stuff but over time he read harder and harder things. He has read books, which I (I am also dyslexic) would not even attempt to read. He is slow reader. But he reads and comprehends and most importantly he enjoys reading.

BTW, I have not heard him read out loud. But my dad (who is also dyslexic) is a terrible at reading things out loud. Yet he reads a lot for pleasure as well.

As for accountability. I am not sure why you think a 766 school is more accountable than a public program. In terms of accountability both are probably equivalent. Just because a school is private does not necessarily mean it is better.

[halogirl]

jisp, The reason I think a chapter 766 school is more accountable is because a Chapter 766, Massachusetts special education law, is designed to define the needs of children requiring special education in a broad and flexible manner, to minimize the possibility of stigmatization, and to maximize the child’s development in the least restrictive environment.

The Massachusetts Department of Education has lead responsibility for ensuring that all provisions of Chapter 766 are met, for promulgating the regulations for its implementation, and for ensuring that the provisions of other state and federal special education laws are also met.

Although, I believe all public schools should do the same their usually is not enough students to warrent the expense. This is why they refer students to chapter 766 schools. A "true" private school not a chapter 766 private school does not follow the guidelines of the MA DOE. They do not take MCAS exams, except title one money or list themselves as a "special education provider" So, I do feel chapter 766 schools have more accountability and I do feel it is better suited to educate the specific needs they list as qualifications for admission. Public schools do not have "who should apply profile page" they must accept all students regardless of abilities and if they can't provide FAPE they must find a school that can.

[jisp]

Well my son was at a total of 8 schools over the course of his k-12 education. Some were 766 schools, some were private and some were public. There was good, bad and great divided among all three categories. Finding that right fit is not easy, especially for kids with complex profiles. My son had some wonderful master teachers in the public school and he had some teachers who totally failed him at the 766 schools he attended. Have an open mind about what you see. Remember that there is not one solution and nobody really can predict what it will take for any one child to succeed or where any one child will end up.

[jdeekdee]

''I can not still wrap my brain around the reasons for not accepting his admissions.''

I would think they have some kind of written policy stating the reasons for not admitting students? Get the policy and see if the reason they are not accepting him is written in it as one of the reasons.

[dihicks6]

Here is a site for 766 schools and their list of ethical practices. Carroll is a member of this organization. I would look it over and see if they have violated any of these ethical practices. I smell another reason for not accepting him, because they are dancing around with their reasons.

Also says this at the website:







Statement of Non-Discrimination

The Massachusetts Association of 766 Approved Private Schools and its member's schools listed subscribe to the following:

maaps member schools do not discriminate against otherwise qualified handicapped individuals who seek admission to its specific programs, and for whom member schools can implement an Individualized Education Plan consistent with its educational and clinical services offered. Member schools review all potential candidates for admissions on a case-by-case basis and reserve the right, in their sole judgment, to accept only those qualified individuals who do not pose a significant health or safety risk to themselves or others, which risk cannot be reasonably addressed within its existing services, program and staff structure.





www.spedschools.com/PlacementInfo/ethical_practices.htm