|
Post by halogirl on Dec 18, 2009 22:22:10 GMT -5
My son was referred to Carroll school by town because town can not educate him with his Ld's. He has been a collobrative program which his IEP team and I agree is the wrong place. He has ADHD and severe LD's the ADHD is managed but he is currently in 4th grade and reading at a 1.9 grade level. He needs to be educated by specialized special ed teachers trained in teaching LD's. This is the Carroll schools response to why he was not accept which puzzles me because I thought people with LD's had low processing speed and working memory scores, hence the LD's.
"I have been grappling with Anthony's case, talking to multiple folks about his profile. However, given his fairly complicated history and his current skill levels in reading, writing, and comprehension, he is not a good fit for Carroll. The primary reason he is not a good fit is that we wouldn't have an appropriate grouping for him the 5th grade, given his TOWRE and VMI scores from May 08 and his WISC index scores of 86 and 83 for Working Memory and Processing Speed. We do not generally have good placements for students with index scores in the 80s. There are multiple concerning factors in Anthony's profile, therefore placement at Carroll is not an option at this time."
The testing is old considering but I am so cunfused any help would be appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by greenie on Dec 18, 2009 22:39:44 GMT -5
You said his testing is old? Can you request that your school district pay for him to be privately evaluated? (an IEE?) Low working memory and processing speed is a hallmark of an LD! I don't get it. Is this a private school?. It is up to your school district to educate your child. Give more info. Is this a school that the district where you live sends children with LD's?
|
|
|
Post by charlotted on Dec 18, 2009 22:50:12 GMT -5
I believe Carroll is considered to be a very good school. However, not every school is a good fit for every child. If the testing is old, you can see if more current testing would help for that. You could also ask them if they know of any other school that works with children that have similar profiles to your son.
My oldest daughter still tests with a poor working memory. When she was 6 they didn't think that she would be ever be able to read fluently. Now at 14, she comprehends at a post high school level and spells close to grade level. I have always homeschooled her, so working memory hasn't been a problem. This year, we are doing a physical science course that has testing. This is the first tests she has ever taken and she is doing very well. They are short answer, long answer and problem tests - the hardest kind. I think that the working memory tests are hard for her because of what she has to remember. However when she has something larger to hang that information on, she is doing very well.
Don't give up hope.
|
|
|
Post by michellea on Dec 18, 2009 23:32:12 GMT -5
If the testing is from May 08, the WISC scores should still be valid. Most practicioners recommend administering te WISC no more than once every three years, although it can be administered again after 12 months.
My ds was not accepted to our first choice school due to his fine motor difficulties. I was extremely distressed - esepcially since my district was willing to pay. That said, there are other options in the Boston area including Landmark School in Beverly and Learning Prep in Newton. Landmark is more similar to Carroll. Willow Hilll School in Sudbury could also be a possibility as it sounds like your son's profile might be a bit complex - they offer excellent support in writing and reading comprehension.
When many LD schools consider an application, they look at both the learning profile of the student to determine if it fits their mission and services and then they look to see if the student can fit into available groupings. The schools have small classrooms of 8 or less students and combine the students based on learning profile (including working memory and processing speed) as well as skill level. If there is not a group that would work, even if the student fits the "profile", the school cannot offer a place.
Since Carroll starts in the 1st grade, many of the students, even those with severe dyslexia and or dysgraphia have had intensive instruction for many years by the time they reach 5th grade. So, even if they have lower WMI and PSI, they may have had the chance to develop their literacy skills to a higher level. Sometimes when older students apply to schools with a strong elementary program, they are too far behind, relative to the other students.
It sounds like Anthony's case is a bit complicated and he would benefit from a school that has a broader mission and perhaps additional supports.
I agree with Charlotted - don't give up hope. You are lucky you are in the Boston area - there are many schools - you just need to find the right fit. Is your district helping you find a good placement?
|
|
|
Post by halogirl on Dec 18, 2009 23:35:19 GMT -5
The testing is from May 2008 and he was not being treated for his ADHD. Nor were his LD's discovered until this time we fought back and fourth with school district because he was not reading at all at that time. I did request re-testing via but the Sped director said the testing was done in May 2008 was his 3yr evaluation and there would not be much of a difference, so she refused. I agree I thought low processing and working memory were the hallmark too. The public school sped dept in our district said they do not have the resources so they referred him to Carroll and are willing to pay for it. I am freaking out because if our town admits failing him and Carroll a LD denied him how will he ever get educated?
|
|
|
Post by bros on Dec 18, 2009 23:50:32 GMT -5
Request in writing that they are willing to pay for an out of district placement.
Follow the other user's suggestions on here as to possible schools
|
|
|
Post by halogirl on Dec 19, 2009 2:47:48 GMT -5
Thanks, I heard Landmark was great but it is over a hour away. Learning Prep does not feel he fits there profile because he needs Orton Gillingham and Lips etc. Although they teach Ld's kids they do not have the specialized programs needed for his learning. They suggested Carroll, ironic huh? Willow is a possibility when he enters 6th grade but he is in 4th so we have a way to go.
|
|
|
Post by michellea on Dec 19, 2009 8:08:04 GMT -5
I understand that Landmark is an hour away, but kids drive well over an hour to both Carroll and Landmark. Not ideal, but the benefits outweigh the hardship.
That said, if he is on meds now, there is a chance that his WISC scores might improve (although my son's didn't). Assuming the placement decision is in writing and now you are just working on finding the placement, In writing, request an evauation from the school. In MA you are entitled to a school evaluation every 12 months. They must complete the evaluation within 30 school days and give you the report within 45 school days. They can do the WISC and hopefully you will get better results.
You also can request an IEE within 18 months of school testing. If you fall in this time frame, you can attempt the outside evaluation. It will be difficult to find an evaluator that can schedule you for the testing and write the report by the end of the school year - in timie to re-apply.
In the meantime, what are they doing for your son? I have known of some families that have received services directly from The Commonwealth Learning Center. They are an excellent organization of well trained teachers in OG, Wilson and LiPS. While they can't provide the integrated instruction like Carroll and Landmark, they will at least give him the excellent language instructin he needs while you are trying to sort things out. They have centers in Danvers, Needham and Sudbury. We used the Danvers location for two years and were very satisfied. I would ask the school to pay for at least 3 hours per day now and throught the end of the year for reading and writing. Commonwealth also has math, and if this is also an issue, add time for math.
I would reconsider Landmark. They are excellent. My son has a 90 minute morning and afternoon commute. It is worth it.
|
|
|
Post by jisp on Dec 19, 2009 9:11:02 GMT -5
Hi Halogirl, I am also from the Boston area and am familiar with all the private LD schools. Your school district should of sent out a minimum of at least 3 application packets when looking into private out of district options. I also had a difficult to place child who was rejected by every school our district sent packets to, so I know exactly how you feel right now. You must be scared and angry and upset that nobody seems willing to help.
The rejections triggered another IEP meeting with our out of district coordinator. At that meeting we brainstormed. More packets were sent out but many were to schools that were not appropriate for our son. I also made a call to the Department of Education and talked to our district's hearing officer at the PQA and asked her if she had any suggestions or ideas because at that time my son was not in school because we could not find a placement. The hearing officer called our town's out of district coordinator and suggested that she ask my son's first choice school (my son was a high school student) to do a 90 day placement to evaluate what my son needed. The private school agreed to do this and they discovered that my son was indeed a good fit for the school and everything ended up working out. Keep in mind that even with the placement, given my son's complexity we had to do a lot of tweaking to the program this school offered to make it work for our son. That tweaking involved outside cognitive tutoring (which we got the school to pay for) and eventually a customized schedule his senior year. It wasn't a perfect match, but my son did graduate from our local high school and the private school he attended.
Are your child's WISC scores consistently in the 80's. That can be a difficult range to find services for. Keep fighting and keep searching and don't give up. You are your child's best advocate and it will be because of you that your child gets the education and resources they need. If you want to contact me privately feel free to do so by sending me a private message on this board with your phone #.
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 19, 2009 13:16:39 GMT -5
wisc is probably not an approrpiate iq test The school accepts students of average to above-average intelligence whose academic difficulties are primarily due to certain diagnosed language-learning disabilities and/or dyslexia. www.carrollschool.org/admissions/index.html
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 19, 2009 13:18:14 GMT -5
since carroll is significantly assisted by entities that recieve fed funding, they must not exclude becuase of disability.. sec 504
|
|
|
Post by jisp on Dec 19, 2009 14:27:27 GMT -5
sld, As I learned with my son the above statement is simply not true. The Carroll School is considered a private school. But it has been approved by the state for public school students and the state agrees to pay the school tuition for those students. But the schools are private and they can decide who they accept and who they choose to educate. When I was upset that my son's first choice HS had told us that they did not feel they were an appropriate placement and effectively rejected him I called the state to get clarification on this issue and it was made very clear to me that these schools operate as private schools accept that in order to maintain their public funding they must adhere to the state standards.
|
|
|
Post by jdeekdee on Dec 19, 2009 14:32:38 GMT -5
I thought that private schools who get public funding had to abide by IDEA and 504.
|
|
|
Post by jisp on Dec 19, 2009 16:39:19 GMT -5
For the children they accept. But there is no rule that they have to accept ALL children. Where a public school MUST take any child who comes through their doors, unless there is reason to believe that they can not meet that child's needs or the child is expelled. A private school operates by their own rules regarding admissions and also be the rules under which they can expel a child.
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 19, 2009 17:07:53 GMT -5
sorry but in their admissions policies and practices, they are under section 504 and cannot discriminate/exclude due to disabilities
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 19, 2009 17:16:27 GMT -5
A school district is not only prohibited from engaging in discriminatory conduct involving its own programs and activities, but is also prohibited from directly or through contractual, licensing or other arrangements, aiding or perpetuating discrimination against a qualified person with a disability by providing "significant assistance" to an agency, organization or person that discriminates. Among the factors that will be evaluated in determining whether a public school is providing significant assistance to a private group are: direct financial support, indirect financial support, provision of tangible resources such as staff and materials, intangible benefits such as the lending of recognition and approval, the selectivity of the school's provision of privileges and resources, and whether the relationship is occasional and temporary or permanent and long-term.
|
|
|
Post by jisp on Dec 19, 2009 18:52:30 GMT -5
The key word in the above paragraph is "QUALIFIED". If the student does not meet the admissions qualifications then the school need not accept them. Trust me, my son was denied admission at many publicly funded private LD schools in MA. The Carroll School has told the parents that they do not feel that the child is a good match for their school. They are not discriminating based on the child's disability they are saying they can not meet the needs of this particular child with the program they have. The child therefore does not qualify for their program. That is very different.
As Michellea pointed out there are many wonderful private options in the area and it probably would be best for the parents to focus less on the rejection and to spend time looking at other options. If the parents feel, even after looking at other options that the Carroll School is still the best option then their district and the Carroll School can talk to see if maybe they could do a 45 day placement or put in place some other arrangement where there are supplemental resources added to the Carroll program.
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 19, 2009 19:07:54 GMT -5
We do not generally have good placements for students with index scores in the 80s. [because they won't accommodate?] discrimination because of disability. privateschool.about.com/od/financial/a/form990.htm"The Carroll School admits students of any race, color, religion, national and ethnic origin, and sexual orientation, or with any disability that can reasonably be accommodated by the school, to all rights, privileges, programs and activities generally accorded or made available to students at The Carroll School. It does not discriminate on the basis of such factors in the administration of its admission, financial aid, educational, employment, or athletic policies." so what accommodations were explored?
|
|
|
Post by michellea on Dec 19, 2009 19:52:05 GMT -5
While the headline of this thread states that the main reason for the rejection is the low WMI, the statement within the original post outlines a host of reasons beyond WMI such as other low scores and skills. <<primary reason he is not a good fit is that we wouldn't have an appropriate grouping for him the 5th grade, given his TOWRE and VMI scores from May 08 and his WISC index scores of 86 and 83 for Working Memory and Processing Speed. We do not generally have good placements for students with index scores in the 80s. There are multiple concerning factors in Anthony's profile, therefore placement at Carroll is not an option at this time.">>
My experience was exactly like jisp's. While I was devestated by the rejection from my first choice school, in hind sight it was for the best. We went back to the drawing and found a placement that met all of my ds's needs. As my SLP advised me at the time, do you really want your son in a place that expects him to fail and does not want him? I am glad I followed her advice and found a school that had the tools, grouping and ability to meet his needs.
|
|
|
Post by healthy11 on Dec 19, 2009 21:13:31 GMT -5
"The Carroll School admits students of any race, color, religion, national and ethnic origin, and sexual orientation, or with any disability that can reasonably be accommodated by the school"
In that sentence, REASONABLY is the key word...sld, I know we've had other discussions about the word "reasonable," but I do not believe a school can legally be required to set up an individual grouping for a student, therefore the school is not prevented from refusing admission to any student that it doesn't feel it can accommodate.
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 20, 2009 9:28:11 GMT -5
"The Carroll School admits students of any race, color, religion, national and ethnic origin, and sexual orientation, or with any disability that can reasonably be accommodated by the school" In that sentence, REASONABLY is the key word...sld, I know we've had other discussions about the word "reasonable," but I do not believe a school can legally be required to set up an individual grouping for a student, therefore the school is not prevented from refusing admission to any student that it doesn't feel it can accommodate. i hope there is another. [if they have not explored accommodations , then a grouping of similar students would not exist to begin with. ]
|
|
|
Post by ctrlfreak on Dec 20, 2009 9:39:40 GMT -5
Can we actually request for the school district to pay for our child to attend a private LD school? What are the odds of that being approved?
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 20, 2009 10:00:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by jisp on Dec 20, 2009 10:23:18 GMT -5
ctrlfreak, a school district will pay for a private LD school if it can not meet the needs of the child. The challenge is in proving that the school district is unable to provide accommodations or modifications to allow the child to make progress in the least restrictive environment. Some schools form collaboratives with other school districts to address the needs of children who can not succeed in the mainstream. If an appropriate collaborative exists a parent will often have to consider it before the school district will look into a private placement. Many parents will spend at least a year working with an advocate and a lawyer to get an Out of District placement.
Also the range of OOD placements vary by location and state. In MA we have what are called publicly approved private schools. These schools have been approved by the state for placement of public school students. Parents can only consider non-publicly approved schools if there child has been rejected from at least 4 publicly approved schools.
Sometimes a school district will request a private placement (although in this economy that is rare) often because they feel they can not handle the child due to behavioral or emotional problems and worry that the child might be a danger to himself or others.
|
|
|
Post by momfromma on Dec 20, 2009 10:45:33 GMT -5
I would not dismiss the notion of grouping out of hand. My experience is that grouping is important.
My ds has been placed in a collaborative for two years. The teacher was great and caring. The aides were great and caring. He was mainstreamed as much as possible. Still, the grouping was extremely poor. Kids in the class had mostly very different needs than my son and it was not a particularly good experience.
He was also denied at a LD school two years later because they were no appropriate grouping for him. We agreed with them as it was once again clear that the grouping was poor. At that time, we visited two classes of this same collaborative he had gone previously with the hope one of them would fit. Once again, not appropriate. ds ended mainstreamed with support, which for him is the best placement that was offered (and potentially the best available in our area for him).
All that to tell you that the solution can take some time, and that requires research. Consider all solutions, even those which are not offered. Then, if really nothing fits better than the Caroll School, follow jisp's advice and go back to them to see how to make the accommodations necessary.
|
|
|
Post by michellea on Dec 20, 2009 12:02:55 GMT -5
Keep in mind that when a private school accepts the publically funded student, from a legal and contractual standpoint, the private school becomes an agent of the public school and assumes all legal obligations of the public school including FAPE. If the school does not believe they have the resources, programming and grouping to provide FAPE, they do the student a service by denying addmittance. Don't you think the school would love to have the $35,000+ tuition? Of course they would. But, they are looking out for the interests of their current students as well as the applicant when they conduct due dilligence prior to extending a place at the school.
|
|
|
Post by jisp on Dec 20, 2009 14:15:14 GMT -5
I wanted to tag on something after Michellea's and MomfromMa's excellent posts. Many parents assume that a private LD school is the answer to their child's struggles. They think that the child will get a better education and more attention will be paid to their LD needs. But there is more to what goes on in school then just academics and if the social mix is not right for the child then an LD school can as much of a disaster as the local public school. We had one placement that was a disaster. And in retrospect the school NEVER should of admitted our son to their program given what they knew about him. But I think that the private school felt pressure from the lawyer and advocate who both thought that this school would be ideal for our son. Having a placement fail or not work out is extremely damaging to a child. Finding the right placement for a complex child can take time. And often there are no optimal solutions. The team needs to figure out what solution is the best given the child's various needs. Much to my amazement after our first placement fell through all sorts of other schools came up that had never been mentioned to us before. I was amazed at the variety of schools available. We found ourselves visiting a whole new set of schools the second time around. The school we ended up with had not even been mentioned to us as a possibility initially. Why? Because I think everyone was so focused on just one of my son's needs. When often with a complex kid there are many different areas that need to be addressed to get the child remediated. In my son's case we ended up with a school that was far from perfect for our son. But we had to decide what areas were of highest priority and choose a school that would be able to address those areas. You might want to look a the list of publicly approved Massachusetts private schools and see if there is a school on this list that you think might be worth a visit. www.spedschools.com
|
|
|
Post by halogirl on Dec 21, 2009 18:32:11 GMT -5
Thank you all for this valuable information. I hear what everyone is saying about grouping and right placement but is there a perfect fit for for any student with learning disabilities or without? The bottom line is it does seem strange that a school specializing in dyslexia should reject my son for the very difficulties that stem from dyslexia. It seems to me as if the combination of of his ADHD and dyslexia is causing the complication in his acceptance to the school. Although such co-morbidity is far from uncommon. It saddens me to think that there is a culture of low expectations for learners in the dyslexic world. Meaning he is too dyslexic for even a school specializing in teaching learning disabilities. I never thought I would see the day when there would be discrimination within the disability of the same disability. I want my son educated with the specific reading, language, and mathematic instruction strageties geared to his learning profile. All the professionals we see at Childrens and Harvard Medical feel the Carroll school is the best place for this regardless of what I think of them because at the moment I think they are hypocrites.
|
|
|
Post by kewpie on Dec 21, 2009 19:04:32 GMT -5
Lots of great info here, especially about retesting with meds.
The fact they are pointing out is that they don't have a "grouping" in the school at THIS time that is at your sons level. This isn't a rejection of your son. Do you want you son in a class where he is too far behind to keep up?
>I understand that Landmark is an hour away, but kids drive well over an hour to both Carroll and Landmark. Not ideal, but the benefits outweigh the hardship.< This is SO true. Almost any kid I know will endure a longer commute to a school they like. My kids have endured really long commutes gladly for the privilege of attending a school that serves their needs.
One for think to consider as Michaella pointed out. If your son is too far behind his peers at Carroll, an intensive program with and OG tutor or Lindamood Bell could bring up to the point where he would fit in with a grouping they do have.
One more thing, did they allow your son to spend the day there to see how he fits into class? In the school here, that can be the deciding factor.
SLD, ALL the kids at Carroll are disabled, saying they discriminate due to disability, would be strange, to say the least.
|
|
|
Post by sld123 on Dec 21, 2009 20:06:17 GMT -5
SLD, ALL the kids at Carroll are disabled, saying they discriminate due to disability, would be strange, to say the least.
/by, it appears, not exploring accommodations before rejecting those with disabilities
|
|