Memorization skills lacking

[kc4braves]

Thanks SharonF for your reply. I'm waiting for the old school to send the results. Well, actually, I think I'm waiting on the mailman to bring it but...at any rate, I hope to have it soon. I would like to compare his scores with some of the things ya'll have mentioned. I really never totally understood the implications of all the scores. I don't think the school cared about anything except whether or not they needed to do anyting or not. I hate to say that but....His teacher did provide modifications as she saw fit which was a big help.

When I start to think the meds might not be making a big difference, I think back to last year and know there have been significant improvements. At his last school, most of the things that determined promotion or retention were standardized testing of one form or the other. One thing they did were Theme Skills Tests which were booklet tests that scored your reading ablitiy and ability to retain information. It may also have had some spelling component. Anyway, his teacher gave the test at least once per scoring period. He always failed it with anywhere form 30%-50% correct. I told her that he read aloud at home and retained well so she started letting him read these tests outloud and some of his other tests as well. He jumped from 30-50% to 88-90%. I thought that was major. She also often gave him another chance on his spelling tests by asking him verbally how to spell something. That was also a major help to him. I guess the only other thing she did to help him was, if she knew he knew the material, she would allow him to retake tests that he had done poorly on and average the two scores.

I expected the very worst this year....especially with us moving to a school in october that had started a month earlier than we had. I expected more of the same....reading problems, spelling problems, testing problems...etc. However, he has done well on all of his spelling tests with much less studying. Although, they don't do the Theme Skills testing, he has done consistently better on worksheets that ask you to read a short story and answer questions. He is reading, by his own choice, not just chapter books but much more difficult chapter books...and has a high average on his AR testing. So, while we still have issues with math (which didn't count in the retention/promotion plan until this year) and handwriting and writing skills in general, I guess he has improved dramatically. He still has problems with anything that requires much organization or attention to detail but at least now, he feels he can say "I'm good at" something. He is very proud of his AR scores and his reading abilitiy. I never thought that would happen. So...they may not appreciate the differences at school, but his mom surely does.

All this to say, that I will do anything that might help him. If understanding how his brain operates will help us help him in any way, then I want to understand it. lol
I also need/want to know how much I should expect the school to help with and how much we have to be responsible for on our own.

,
Kathy

[kc4braves]

I got the copy of my son's SLD testing that he had done last MAy in the mail today. I have been reading over the results trying to see if anything stands out. It was the WISC-III.

His VIQ was 105 and PIQ was 93. Verbal comprehension 108, Perceptual organization 93, Freedom from Distractability 96, Processing Speed 101. They go onto say that these scores show him to be a verbal learner.

Under Motor/Perceptual it says:
TAPS: Auditory Quotient 91, percentile rank 26
Visual-Motor Integration 94, Visual Perception 107, Motor Coordiantion 93

They then break down the results from the TAPS , WISC-III, VMI, and WJ-III. I didn't want to include too much info for one email. Please let me know what areas I should look at most closely. It is very confusing to me that they say he is capable of average, successful school performance and that he is performing at or near his potential when he, for all practical purposes, failed 2nd grade.

Oh well. It is late and we have a regional science fair to go to very early in the morning. I look forward to your responses.

Kathy

[SharonF]

Kathy--

NLD cannot and should not be diagnosed from WISC indices alone. However, these numbers are a HUGE indictor of a likely reason for many of his difficulties: NLD. If he has both ADHD and NLD, that means he's fighting lots of "invisible" battles when he tries to learn.

His VCI is 15-points higher than his POI on the WISC-III. (My 8th grade daughter's spread between VCI and POI on the WISC-III was 40-points, but everyone tells me that was incredibly unusual, especially for a child with a language processing impediment caused by CAPD. As I've told you, she also has ADHD-in.)

His VMI and Motor coordination are within average ranges, but on the low side, especially when compared with his verbal processing ability. I would bet there are some unexpectedly low subscores on his VMI and motor skills tests. Motor coordination is a 93, but his handwriting is laborious and difficult to read--correct? Another indication of NLD. How is his gross motor? What VMI did they use? What were his high and low subtests in the VMI?

The best ways to confirm NLD are with additional tests done by a developmental neuropsych, especially the NEPSY, grooved pegboard, abstract reasoning tests, and the like. A good neuropsych or neurologist would also observe social interaction.

As I told you on a private message, there are three main types of NLD: *social,* *visual-spatial,* and *motor.* Abstract reasoning--such as math and science reasoning--is often a difficulty, as well. Many NLDers are very literal in their interpretation of literature. They have trouble "connecting the dots" and "reading between the lines" in dealing with others and when reading or learning in class.

Often, the classic NLDer is so strong verbally that he/she is able to compensate well for his difficulties until algebra, physics, geometry, and higher level literature classes such as poetry and Shakespeare. The classic NLDer is used to being a straight-A student, but hits middle or high school and their compensating strategies are not sufficient enough anymore. So math, science and higher level literature are all areas to watch. Some NLDers have incredible reading ability all the way through school. Others are great decoders but have trouble comprehending more complex material.

If your son has ADHD, that would mean he's not a classic NLDer. Most ADHDers have trouble with attention/focus, processing speed, working memory, long-term memory/recall, sequencing, organizing their thoughts, organizing their stuff, executive function, too many random thoughts interfering with smooth cognition, and some have impulsivity and hyperactivity on top of that. No wonder he has struggled in school!

Interesting about "reading out loud" helping your son. My daughter has to read out loud to truly comprehend. She's in 8th grade. Lindamood Bell's Visualizing/Verbalizing helped her tremendously, but reading comp still takes a lot of concentration for her.

Abstract math like algebra and geometric proofs also are hard for her. She finally understands integers but has trouble doing equations with them. She understands fractions if she is given a visual, but has trouble with equations using fractions.

Physics--forget it! She struggles with all of the terms in Earth Science and Biology, but at least can visualize and understand the concepts.

While most NLDers are good with language, many have trouble with written expression. Handwriting is not the only reason for that. (Then there are NLDers like me who write TOO much information!) He will likely need specialized instruction in written expression.

For most classic NLDers, you explain, explain, explain. They learn best through words. Pictures are good, but words help shore up those pictures. Words are key to their learning and remembering. But if your son has both NLD and ADHD, he will need all of the supports for ADHD--in addition to the remediation and supports for NLD. He can use his language skills to help him compensate for his weaker areas. But many teachers judge kids' capability in all areas on their language skills alone. Make sure the teachers realize that, even with strong language skills, he has very real learning impediments.

Sorry to go on so long. I just feel compelled to help educate other parents about NLD--since schools can't or won't.

Good luck Kathy!

[kc4braves]

SharonF said:

His VMI and Motor coordination are within average ranges, but on the low side, especially when compared with his verbal processing ability. I would bet there are some unexpectedly low subscores on his VMI and motor skills tests. Motor coordination is a 93, but his handwriting is laborious and difficult to read--correct? Another indication of NLD. How is his gross motor? What VMI did they use? What were his high and low subtests in the VMI?

Where would I find the sub-scores? I found a list of subscores such as Picture Completion, Coding, Object Asembly, etc. but can't tell wht this actually goes with. As to what VMI did they use, what are you asking exactly? It states Developmental Test of Visual-Motor Integration [Full Format]. I'm not sure if that answers the question, though. If the above stated sub categories were the correct ones, then the lowest sub-test was picture completion (6), coding (visual memory) (9), arithmetic (math/concentration skills) (9) and Object Assembly (manuel skills) (8). The 6 indicates serious delay but the 8 and 9s are in the low average and average range. His highest scores were in Information ( general knowlege) (13) and three (12)s in Similarities (abstract reasoning), Block design (visual perception) and Comprehension ( Social Awareness). I'm not sure if these are the corect sub tests you were referring to,though.

There is also another list of sub-tests listed under WJ-III. All of his scores were above 100 on these tests. Oddly enough, he tested highest in math with Broad Math being 119 ( he had a range up to 122). The teachers, etc. at the IEP took one look at these scores and said..."Gosh, he did great. Hope he does that well on the standardized testing." I almost told the principal just what she could do with her standardized testing. I was good, though, and kept that opinion to myself.

Thanks for all the info. I guess I need to learn more about reading these results before we get more stuff done. lol

Kathy

[mrsheartbuzz]

My son has adhd. He has an LD in written expression. I am sure he has NLD, but never diagnosed with it. I spoke to our school psycholoand had me describe things about my son. After hearing me out, she said he probably does have NLD. She said that NLD children usually have trouble with math. Especially multiplication, algebra and others. My son cannot memorize those darn tables. We have done everything. Tapes, flashcards, everything. We practice multiplication facts for 15 minutes a day. We are hoping that repetitiveness will help. My husband has trouble recalling multiplication facts also and he is 46 yo!! I don't want to scare you, but wait until you start fractions!!! You really rely on those mult. facts for adding fractions. We got a big fat honking F on our report card in math when we were doing fractions this year(grade 5) all due to not being able to multiply!! We are teaching my son to write out the X tables he doesn't know (3,4,6,7,) on a piece of paper before he starts a test to refer back to. This will work only if your child has extra time for test taking. Good luck!

[kc4braves]

I feel like my son will eventually get everything but....will he do it before he's 80? That's the question. He just got back a multiplication test. Basic table facts...nothing complicated. He made a 71. On the one hand, I'm glad he passed but this won't get him through. He admits that he is too slow and has to try to rush to get done. So there is definitely no time for checking his work or anything (not that he would). He has to add to get the answers. Doesn't even have basic addition memorized. Now they are doing division which is just more multiplication. I think he has already given up.

He also got back what I considered a simple saxon math quiz. It was mostly addition and subtraction word problems and regular problems...nothing set up to confuse or anything. He made 64. He knew how to do all of it. When we went over the problems he missed, he knew them all. It was very sloppy work with no attn. to detail. I don't know if his meds are not working at certain times, if there were major, unusual distractions in the room or what.

He is actually enjoying math more. I find him doing math crossword puzzles and games and enjoying them. It's just that it's really probably second grade math and he isn't timed. There's no pressure and he can count on his fingers as much as he wants.

I'll end on a positive not. He ACED both science tests this week. Perfect scores. It amazes me that he can remember all the facts about the solar system without being given the opportunity to study but not learn math facts even after considerable studying. He told me he loves science but can't be a scientist because his teacher told them that you have to do math. LOL

Have agreat day and thanks for the replies.

KAthy

[SharonF]

Under Motor/Perceptual it says:
TAPS: Auditory Quotient 91, percentile rank 26
Visual-Motor Integration 94, Visual Perception 107, Motor Coordiantion 93

When I mentioned his subscores--I was interested in his VMI subtests. I see his Visual Perception is significantly higher than his motor coordination. That indicates it's not a visual problem, but likely a fine motor problem, that's causing handwriting difficulties. I'd just like to see the scatter within the VMI to see if that hunch is correct.

His WISC subtests are helpful. Block Design also confirms his visual processing ability as well as abstract reasoning ability. That's strong--especially if he has NLD. (My NLDer got a 1 in Block Design) However, Picture Completion shows something is still an impediment.

Coding is probably impacted by ADHD since it's a timed test.

Interesting that his WJ math is so strong, yet he can't reproduce that kind of achievement in the classroom. That warrants further study. Is anxiety a factor? The way the material is being presented in class? The way it's presented on the WJ? It is more evidence of the "inconsistencies" that seem to be so common in kids with LDs and ADHD? That is puzzling to me. (But I'm not a psych!)

Anyway--congrats on the two A's on the science tests! That's got to make him feel good. And I think you're right about him taking more time to memorize. The memory area of his brain just doesn't have as much capacity as teachers think it should. That's okay. He's got other gifts!

[kc4braves]

SharonF,
Thanks for the info. I guess I don't have any results for VMI subtests. I don't see anything more about it on the papers I was given.

As for his math scores in class and on the WJ...I do think he is very inconsistent in many areas of his life. I am under the impression that that is part of the ADHD and maybe even part of being a little boy. lol I KNOW anxiety was a factor last year as vitualy everything they did in class was timed. I'm not sure if it is as much of a problem this year or not. I had gotten the impression that maybe he had more time this year but not sure. I know they have been doing Mad Minutes.

I have my theory as to why his scores were better on the WJ and not reproduced in class. None of the testing that they showed me in the IEP meeting represented the difficulty of the work he was supposed to be able to do for class. I got the impression that the WJ tested very basic skills. As I said, had the sentences that he had to write for the test been graded by his teacher, she would have used up the ink in a red pen. He would have failed miserably but, for some reason, it was "passing with flying colors" for the WJ. It's kinda like reading in a child educational development book what a child should be able to do in each grade then compaing that to what he is really expected to do. They are not the same. If all you can do is the basics, you get left behind.

He has learned alot and does pretty well, when inconsisity doesn't creep in, on alot of his math. He has finally gotten the concept of number places and rounding to different places even in large numbers. He estimates well and does most reading problems well ( except for the ones that are written specifically to confuse). He is understanding plotting graphs patterns, reading charts and doing beginning fractions. Those were skills that were started last year and have been more fully developed this year. He just hasn't gotten fast enough with addition (he is very accurate just slow) and hasn't learned multiplication, etc. I think his teacher from last year would be surprised at how much he has gotten that he couldn't do last year. I wonder sometimes if we should have held him back. We asked to at the last school but they wouldn't allow it. His 3rd grade teacher ( at the old school) thought we should when we moved but, I think had he stayed back, he would have suffered. Nothing would had have been different and he wouldn't have been introduced to new things and been able to develop the skills he has. Does that make sense? I just wonder when it will all catch up with him.

Anyway, thanks for your assessment. It was interesting and informative.

Kathy

[kc4braves]

Well, we got his 3rd nine weeks report card today. He did ok but dropped from an A to a high C in math. Those darn memorization skills again. Multiplication has kicked in full force now. Overall, I think he did well. A's in science , social studies,PE and music; B's in reading, language arts and spelling and the 84 in math ( a C).

His teacher says that she is not as worried about him as I am. She says we should focus on math ONLY for now. She says that he is a very frustrated child and that if we try to do too much, it will only get worse. We should be more positive and not inadvertantly continue to point out his weaknesses. I'm not sure that encouraging him to write legibly is a bad thing or that re- working math problems that are incorrect is a bad thing. I left there feeling like I have been doing all the wrong things.

She did confirm what he has been saying lately, that he is not finishing things on time. Meaning, he has to work longer on things and sometimes lap over into another subject. Thus his complaint about not having time to eat his snack. She said she doesn't think there is any need to get a 405 right now because she is letting him take the time he needs and that achievement tests this year are not timed. She did tell me to be prepared to get one BEFORE middle school.

She asked me about his meds because he has started doodling on all his papers again. She says that, although, there is defintely a difference when he takes his meds, that she wonders if there might be something else that works better. Her son is ADHD and she has seen better help from meds in him and in other kids, I guess. She also suggested, that if I am really concerned, that we might try Sylvan Learning Center. Anyone ever had luck with them? I don't want to go into debt for a program that doesn't work.

Anyway, thanks for listening. I think I'm having a hard time today for some reason.

Kathy

[Mayleng]

kcbraves, if she is saying she is doing accommodations, then it is time for you to get him the 504. It is important because come Middle school he will fail without it. The longer you wait to get him accommodations officially the harder it will be.

Sylvan is expensive, if she is recommending that he needs outside tutoring, than the school is not doing it's job. He needs Resource room help.

See what accomodations she is doing and get it into the 504 NOW. Next year's teacher may not be so willing to do the accomodations on her own.

If she is telling you that the meds is not working well and if she has experience with her own children, then maybe it is time to talk to the doctor about a dosage change or a med change.

[kc4braves]

Will a 504 move with you from school/town to school? I mean if we get one now and then move over the summer or in the fall, will it transfer or will we have to start over?

She doesn't really think he needs tutoring ( she said) but said that IF we are that concerned that they helped her child. I really think I will be butting my head against walls at the school.

As for resource room help, he did not qualify at the end of last year, at our old school, when we had him tested. How would I get that now without the support of his teacher? She really seems to think he is doing ok. I think she and I have different ideas of that, though. She said that I may be setting unrealistic goals for him. What does that mean? Don't you usually run a race hoping to win even if you have to settle for completion as your victory?

Thanks for the suggestions.

Kathy

[Mayleng]

kc4braves said:

Will a 504 move with you from school/town to school? I mean if we get one now and then move over the summer or in the fall, will it transfer or will we have to start over?

She doesn't really think he needs tutoring ( she said) but said that IF we are that concerned that they helped her child. I really think I will be butting my head against walls at the school.

As for resource room help, he did not qualify at the end of last year, at our old school, when we had him tested. How would I get that now without the support of his teacher? She really seems to think he is doing ok. I think she and I have different ideas of that, though. She said that I may be setting unrealistic goals for him. What does that mean? Don't you usually run a race hoping to win even if you have to settle for completion as your victory?

Thanks for the suggestions.

Kathy

The 504 should stay with the child even if you move schools. However, 504s are updated yearly. So get one now, or you might be fighting with the new school as to whether he needs it. And the teachers will have to get to know him all over again, and another year will be wasted.

Teachers are trying to make their lives easier, if a child is struggling you help. You don't wait till he fails. Unfortunately, it really depends on whether you think the child is learning. My child is a B/C student because his main problem is in written expression. However, that cuts across all subjects including math. He is very good at math, but he word problems kills him. That is what brings down his scores. So if he were to be able to do everything verbally, his teachers says he is an A student. So I don't really sweat the grades he gets, as long as I know he is learning and what he is capable of. I work with him all the time, so I know exactly where he is at academically. My son has a superior/gifted IQ, so getting B/Cs are way below his capabilities. But because of his ADHD and the written expression problem, I have accepted that Bs and Cs are OK, AS LONG AS I KNOW HE IS LEARNING AND HE IS NOT FAILING. By the way, I find that the school don't really know how to teach our kids, so I make up for it myself by teaching him the way he understands. This may be what you need to do BUT, get him the 504 because accommodations are more important for our kids in school especially in the higher grades when expectations on organization, executive functions etc are much much higher. If your child has problems with math, and if there is a Lindamood Bell clinic near you, it is much better than Sylvan. Their math program - ON Cloud Nine is supposed to be very good.

[eaccae]

I want to respond more in-depth - unfortunately I don't have much time these days . . .


There was a point when we were extremely concerned with DS and memorization. When learning to read - he couldn't remember even simple words like "I" or "be" or "with" - but once we started doing phonics at home he jumped up 16 levels over the course of the school year. The school is doing the "new math" which threw me (and continues to). Up until this year he was either just below or barely on goal. Again - flash cards, etc. didn't help at all. I couldn't understand why he couldn't remember things like 9+5 = 14 even though we would make him do it over and over every day. His IQ scores were in the superior range. And when the school did testing they discovered that he had unbelievable memorization skills. He also could ace every spelling test - but the spelling didn't translate over to his writing. His writing is still way under goal. But if you ask him anything verbally he blows everybody away. He has an unbelievably difficult time with the mechanics of writing - yet his fine and gross motor skills are excellent as is his visual perception (out of the park great).

Things we did discover. He has dysgraphia - a writing LD. But the school did their own testing and refuses to acknowledge it because of the OT. This year (4th grade) his math skills have jumped - he can add 3 digit numbers in his head, he can multiply, etc. He only works at one speed which is a little slower than the norm - so we have accomodations that he doesn't have timed math tests, etc. He is rated as one of the schools best readers yet we have problems in reading group because he cannot answer his questions in writing . . . which is how they grade on this. Yet - verbally he is again all there. We have discovered that although he has great memorization skills - he is a process learner - he doesn't retain the information by memorization but seems to only learn through the process - i.e., the phonics. I think this is why the math has now come together. All the years of learning the process has finally paid off. He still can't memorize the times tables, but he can multiply, if that makes sense - he just has to go through the process - 4x8, well 2x8 = 16 so 16+16=32 so the answer is 32. The school has also - thanks to his teacher - acknowledge his dysgraphia along with the fact that his executive dysfunction is affecting his writing - basically that he is having a very difficult time organizing and implementing his thoughts when it comes to writing. (Verbally he doesn't have a problem at all). The school is now ammending his accomodations to give him 30 minutes a day of writing help - both in handwriting and more importantly in actual writing development.

DS is a perfect example of NVLD - his test scores - all of them were on the high end and yet his actual functioning didn't match. You can't always test for the invisible things which makes it so much harder! The hard part for us for a long time was trying to figure out that with both the neuropsych's and the school's testing - he had fantastic memory and yet when it came to learning - I was questioning my sanity. I don't know why - it must be the way the brain thinks or is wired - but he will ONLY learn through the process - if that makes any sense.

I don't know if I helped you at all.

[Mayleng]

eaccae, you just described my son, although he is not NLD. He also does not memorize math, I teach him by concepts and using "tricks". He is very good at mentally calculating as well. Like I said, only issue is the written expression. His writing is not neat and uneven, but like your son, he does not have problems with fine motor skills.

He does go to the Resource Room - much good that does.

I just bought some books recommended by my Schwabbie friends - by Diana Hanbury King (she taught Pete Wright) on writing from www.EPS.com. So I will be working with my son on this. Hopefully, I can help him, if not, chances are with problems in written expression, they will need AT sooner or later.

[kc4braves]

It's funny that ya'll talk about teaching them differently. I have always had a feeling that if WE could figure out the right thing to say or do, it would all become quite clear for him. We just can't seem to find the right thing. I'm still not sure what the correct teaching method is.

You keep mentioning "the process" but that isn't very clear to me. What exactly do you mean. I have actually tried to teach him to multiply the way you say your son does...because I always found it helpful. There were a few multiplication problems that I was always slow with but if I could half the problem then double it, I could get it right everytime. It just seems to be just another step for him and he seems to lose the purpose. Or maybe he just hasn't mastered the smaller steps yet. I don't know.

His teacher told me today that he needs to leran to "cope" with the things that are not his strenghts. Fine a way to "get around" them. For instance, she thinks he may always need to use his fingers but suggested we use "touch math" instead so that it isn't so obvious. I have an idea of how to do that with addition but she seems to think there is a way to do with multiplication as well. Which just makes me feel more like if I had the right person to help him or help me, that he would improve.

I guess I don't know the "tricks" to teach him. My friend had had to teach her daughter with alternate means but she is overseas and not really available to help me work out how to help my DS. Her child is almost opposite , in may ways, than my son. She had the most prononced problems with reading. I guess she is very visual. She finally, more or less, memorized all the words using site word cards, etc. She has very few decoding skills at all. Anyway, my firend adapted. Why can't I? ( that's rhetorical)

Thanks for the comments and for hope that things will improve and that I shouldn't back off too much.

Kathy

[Mayleng]

Kathy, my son is very visual, so when I teach him something, I write it down and show him and break it down, so he gets the concept.
I ask him the questions step by step, so he figures it out himself. I kind of lead him to the answer.

[eaccae]

Kathy - it's funny that you mention the touch math. DS does use his fingers when he is multiplying. Unfortunately I am not sure why or what he does so I can't be of much help. I think that with this "new math" - they teach it differently. Even last year in 3rd - DS was having an extremely difficult time adding. The whole thing with the new math is that they are teaching kids to "master the process" instead of memorization. And the timetable of when they learn things is different - it is 4th grade but they didn't really go into multiplication until this year. They did some sort of preparatory work at the end of last year with sets and grouping but now real multiplication. Of course they didn't give us parents any insights so helping our kids out has been hard and frusterating - especially when benchmarking your kids with others - who aren't doing the new math thing and are into the timestables by third grade. When DS was first learning I was teaching him how to carry the one but he got irrate because they weren't doing that. I honestly have no idea how they did it but they weren't carrying the one. And they didn't subtract the same way either. They use all sorts of boxes, etc. to show their work. It gets so confusing - especially as a parent. He brought home a worksheet one year that asked for the answer and then to write a sentence explaining how he got it. Well silly me - I thought he had to write a sentence - with words. So he got marked off. They didn't say write a NUMBER sentence! They basically wanted him to show his work. ?? So it has taken DS until 4th grade to master adding and subtracting. I think the reason he is getting the multiplication is only because he finally is getting the addition/subtraction which is the base. Like I said - he was always struggling with math. This is the first year where he actually had a report card that said math was a strength. But - we still need the accomodations giving him extra time on timed tests, etc. because although he is now getting it - his speed is slower. (The funny thing is that his processing speed when tested was really, really high - who knows).

By the process I guess I kind of mean that instead of learning by memorization (and get this - he is a visual learner so I can't figure it out) - it is like he has to go through the whole nuts and bolts of how to do something. And it is always laborious. It seems to take so much time but when he gets it - he really gets it. So when he was learning to read (he wasn't reading ANYTHING in the beginning of first grade) - he couldn't focus on the sight words. He had to sound each and every word out (even if he knew them) which was tedious and painful to the listener for a couple of years but he got it and can read anything. We started doing the Hooked on Phonics in first grade and he jumped 18 levels from the beginning of the year to the end. (My DD on the other hand can't get phonics at all and only learns by memorization). Last year he read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings - and the principal says he tests as one of the best readers - reading a couple of grade levels ahead . . . but he was always in the bottom of his reading group at school. Again - because of the written aspect.

I don't know if it is because of the executive dysfunction - the way that he processes information, etc. - but it seems he really just has to learn using all of the building blocks and nuts and bolts. I think it probably is - and that it is affecting his writing more so because he is having a harder time finding something concrete to access - unlike a fact or a way to do math, etc. which he is able to now organize in his mental file cabinet.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense.

(As for the handwriting - we started using the Handwriting Without Tears program at home and it has made a huge difference. The school is now going back to using that paper for him and they are probably going to start letting him type as well).

[kc4braves]

Some of it makes alot of sense. I think my son is similar in some areas. I have been trying to help him with division but, since it is just reverse multiplication, I figured that was the problem....not being able to multiply well. Today i saw a paper that her brought home with basic division, ie 35 divided by 5=?. He had gotten them all correct. I asked him the problem above to see if he really got it or if he was just skip counting, etc. he said, "Mom, it's 7. Know how I know? the teacher keeps on saying that I have to take the little number and see what I times it by to get the big number. Why didn't you tell me to do it like that?" LOL I had been saying that but not in those words exactly. I guess it finally clicked so, at least, he understands the basic idea now. I was trying to break it down into sets the other day because i had realized that he didn't get the basics.

I don't know what kind of "new math" ya'll are doing. We are doing saxon math and it seems like 'old' math to me. I know what you mean about things being different, though. When he started 3rd at our last school ( we moved in Oct.) she sent home a worksheet that asked about grouping and how many times did you group, etc. We didn't have any idea what it was talking about so we just had him answer the problem. She marked it all wrong which I took as a slap in the face since I did well in math and knew the problems were correct. I talked to her about it. I guess they are calling borrowing and carrying "grouping" now. We had no idea. He is fully into multiplication in 3rd grade, thus the 10 point drop in math grade. He doesn't really KNOW it verbally or in writing but he can figure it out by adding if given enough time ( I think).

Thanks for the comments. I just need to figure out what to do to help. His self-esteem is fragile.

Kathy

[kc4braves]

Mayleng said:

kcbraves, if she is saying she is doing accommodations, then it is time for you to get him the 504. It is important because come Middle school he will fail without it. The longer you wait to get him accommodations officially the harder it will be.


See what accomodations she is doing and get it into the 504 NOW. Next year's teacher may not be so willing to do the accomodations on her own.

.

Ok. My question now is....how do I go about getting one. Of course, the school never mentioned the 504 when they tested him. I'm not sure how I even learned about it. So, anyway, what is the correct way to go about requesting one? I feel that I could have gotten one easily last year but am not as confident this year since he is passing with mostly A's and B's. The only accomodation that I know he is getting is the extended time to complete in class work. What other things should he likly be getting? Can he get a 504 for just one accomodation and how do I justify it to the school?

Any info. is appreciated. .
Kathy

[Mayleng]

Here's a good site with tricks to teach multiplication.

www.multiplication.com/teach.htm

[kc4braves]

That is a WONDERFUl website. I think it will be helpful especially with the little stories and rhymes. He remembers stuff like that.

,
Kathy

[d]

kc4 - a highly trusted smart friend who has a few decades of sp ed experience behind her once gave me very good advice about multiplication and division. She said most schools teach them seperately with multiplication first. She found that teaching or memorizing them together made a world of difference. e.g.. 7X5=? then hit'm immediately with 35/5=? The way they teach it now, even kids who had no problems getting multiplication down pat dread memorizing division a bit.