Don't help your kid's with homework

[jisp]

link

  Ken Robinson (the guy who did the infamous Ted-Talk) nails it again. Helping kids with homework does not help.



 DH and I were the opposite of the "Tiger Mom".  We never forced our kids to do anything around school or musical practice.  But we did read to them a lot, make our home and dinner table a place where ideas got discussed and went out of our way to help our children explore any interests they had.  When our children were struggling as teens and young adults I questioned my parenting and wondered if I had made a mistake not being more involved with their homework and whether I was wrong to not force them to sit and do those stupid everyday math worksheets or insist they write that essay before running outside the climb a tree or ride their bike.  Things have worked out in the end for all three of my kids and it is nice to know that my lack of action might have played a role in who they are today, which is three self-motivated young adults.  

[dihicks6]

I sooooo agree.......

[healthy11]

In the same way that no two children are alike, nor are all parents alike, I don't think a single educational method, such as "hands off," is necessarily the best for everyone. Personally, I don't agree with the "Tiger Mom" approach, but I also don't believe the "Unschooling" approach would work well for all. ( abcnews.go.com/Nightline/unschooling-homeschooling-books-tests-rules/story?id=10796507 )

In my own son's case, he would probably still not know how to print if he hadn't been urged/required to do it. While I didn't force him to write lengthy passages, there were times I felt the need to have him persist on assignments when he would otherwise have avoided entirely or given up easily. While it's true that he has more internal self-motivation and passion for certain tasks, like working on mechanical things (such as Legos when he was younger and cars/motorcycles now,) it's important for kids to learn that sometimes you need to do things you don't like or fully understand. (ie, tax forms are like "homework" for adults; even if we don't like them, they need to be done.)

[jisp]

Healthy,
I don't think Ken Robinson's research is saying parents should "Unschool" children or that schooling doesn't matter. But I think his research shows that parents who become overly involved in their child's academic career's are not necessarily giving them a leg up. So when my kids were young my attitude was it was not my job to make sure my child had completed his homework, or was doing all he/she needed to do for a research project or a craft type project. And there were plenty of times when my kid's grades suffered as a result. While other children presented marvelous works my children's presentations were often quite lame and lacked many of the perks that their peers, whose parents had helped them had. Parents who did get involved with those projects often spoke about what a wonderful bonding experience it was for them and their child and how much their child learned by their helping out. I had my share of guilt for not having that experience with my kids. But we were dealing with other bigger things around health with your middle son. ……so I never sat with my son while he practiced his instrument. I never even asked my kids if they had homework before they went out and played or went to visit a friend. But that doesn't mean they were being unschooled. If they didn't turn in their homework their grades suffered. And we certainly had conversations about college and longterm goals and dreams and what it would take to achieve those dreams.

[dwolen]

I helped a lot with homework. I did the opposite of jisp and dihicks. I typed all her book reports and at home essays. In junior year, I acted as her scribe so she could actually turn in the junior theme that she had done all the research for, but could not get down on paper due to EF, dyslexia, dysgraphia. My dd never failed any courses. I took her to a lot of professionals. I even moved to the suburbs to get her into a better school and paid for many tutors. She was not identified with LD's until she was 18, despite being previously tested twice. It was very detrimental for her not to be identified. She is paying for my "help" with terrible emotional problems now. I hope that years of psychotherapy will help her. I accept responsibility for my actions.

If she had not turned in her book reports or hand wrote them, she would have failed repeatedly and I guess she would have been identified with her LD's a lot earlier. But I had been convinced by the professionals that thereto was no LD to be found, that there was a "different" learning style, so I tried to support this as best I could. I thought I was being a good school parent.

My dh.with a similar learning profile (perhaps not as severe as dd's) as a child/teen, did get C's and D's in high school. He had no parental involvement, but he also had no friendly, supportive home atmosphere. He developed really severe and negative ways to cope with all his anxiety when he was 13 yo, and these problems still exist today. Now he is elderly and is still coping with his negative coping when he was 13.
My intentions were so different from how things turned out. I regret this.

[jisp]

Dwolen,
Every parent has regrets. No parent is perfect. And most children seem to grow up fine despite their parents. As our child psychiatrist once said to me, "Bad Parenting doesn't cause this….." He made a point of saying even the worst parenting often does not result in certain pathologies that we blame on parents. Your daughter is probably genetically vulnerable to certain emotional struggles. There is not much you can do about genetics…we get the genes we get from our parents. And one challenge of parenting young adults is learning that at a certain point we have provided them with what we can and they must now take the controls and decide how to move forward. This sometimes leads to a lot of stumbles and misdirections in the 20s. But just because your child is stumbling does not mean you failed as a parent or that you caused them to stumble. They are living a life with the brain they have, the emotions they have and the body they have. They are likely not a perfect human specimen so there is going to be some self discovery if that has not yet been done. But at this point you can not blame yourself nor feel guilty. You did your job by getting your child to adulthood alive and now it is up to them.

Ken Robinson's research specifically asked the question of whether parental involvement helped and gave kids a leg up. It did not say anything about it causing harm. If I were to give you a homework assignment it would be Dwolen write out a list of 50 things you did right as a parent. And trust me I am sure there are at least 50 if not 100 or 200.

Also remember we all parent in a larger culture. The culture when your daughter was in school was very unfriendly to failure and parents not being involved. So if you or your daughter want to blame anyone it should be the educational system of the 1990s and you both should think about how the media and politics and school reform played a role. It is much healthier for the two of you to have a common enemy than to think mom is to blame.

[healthy11]

dwolen, (( )) kids aren't born with a set of instructions attached, and no two respond the same way to the same parental involvement, or lack of involvement, as the case may be. The nature/nurture percentages are not clearly defined.

I've previously talked about how my mother went to great lengths to treat my sister and me equally, and even though we're "Irish twins" (not Irish ethnicity, but born less than a year apart) we've turned out to be vastly different in so many areas of our lives. I'm not talking just about our academic and career paths, but even how we interact and deal with people around us. My sister is very self-centered, and seems to lack empathy when it comes to others, not unlike my son.

As my own son was growing up, and I was also helping care for some elderly relatives, I vividly remember several people telling me how he would benefit by seeing that "actions speak louder than words" and how important it was to not only say you love someone, but DO things to show it and assist others. Unfortunately, if you ask my son about those times, he's likely to say "I remember when mom didn't take me to Great America and she went to Grandma's instead." He just didn't get that families consist of many members who all have varying needs, and activities couldn't only revolve around him. I still feel he lacks appropriate understanding of others, and I wonder what I could've done differently, but I did what I thought was best at the time. Dwolen, I know your intentions and the actions you took were the best for your daughter at the time, too. Don't beat yourself up.

[dwolen]

Well, its nice of you to be so supportive.
I realized that I should not have posted, because really, this advice is directed at parents who have young children in school.

I have a close friend whose second job is helping her son get through high school. He has a very slow processing speed and does not qualify for any IEP/services, though he can get extra time for tests. The ds calls her or she calls him after every test to see how things went, they prepare a lot together, so far, at age 16, he is still cooperating with her. It is remarkable.
When we went to the Landmark College open house, way back in 2010, the main speaker told the perspective students that most of them had probably graduated from high school due to their mother's.
I honestly don't know who is right and who is mistaken.

[empeg1]

Ah homework and "helping" kids…. one main thing I would do differently as a parent, if I had the chance, would be to approach homework with my oldest daughter in an entirely different way. Homework was something I often thought of as the "H" word. My daughter would come home for school, having held it together all day, and just need to run, climb, play and relax. She did those things, but pushing her homework did its own damage.

Homework called for more concentration and, worse, presented her with what she could not do, not only at school but at home. Being the "good" educator, I wanted her to finish her homework, when I think now that she was on brain shut down from her day already. Not only that, but kids with a FASD often have difficulty generalizing, so that what she learned at school often did not arrive with her when she got home. All her frustration from the day spilled over with homework as did her difficulty in memorizing, for all those @#@# tests. What would I do now? Tell the teachers that school work was their problem and not mine, not for those worksheets, tests, vocabulary lists and spelling that never generalized to her writing anyway. I would have read to her, as I did, of all the subjects that she loved and given her even more opportunity during the school year, as she did in the summer, for all those projects of hands on learning. The last thing she needed, after struggling in school all day, was to struggle even more at home, with learning presented in ways she did not learn.

[vp4]

 OMG, I had been a bit of Tiger Mom..... actually the only expectation I set for my son is grades and being physically active. I admit freely to telling him that I want to see A grades in each class. I had talked to him about hiring a tutor to help him if he finds something difficult, like Algebra 2 this year. He is averaging a B- I am right now thinking of how to hire a tutor to help him while he is in the dorm. He protests on occasion that he doesn't need help. Then I point out the B-. Then he points out the 3.65 GPA. Is it harmful if I hire a tutor who works with him twice a week on Algebra? Part of the help is homework. His current math teacher is a pain in the fanny. She docks points for all kinds of things such as binder not being tidy, etc. I have let him cope with these difficulties without intervening for almost 2 years but time has come for me to be more involved. I am planning to pull him out of current school & dorm and send him to a better school next two years. He will hopefully split time with me and his mom. (we are currently in the midst of a nasty divorce and my attorney has told me to back off so that he won't tell the psychologist that he wants to live with his mom only ) And I intend to help him with tutors when he needs them. He certainly will because he will be taking some AP classes next two years. Sadly, he couldn't careless about what classes to take, what to do in future,etc. I feel like I am planning everything. That I don't like. I wish he had even the slightest of interest in planning next year's classes, future career, etc. All he likes to do is watch youtube in his free time.

[dihicks6]

What's wrong with a B- and 3.65 GPA? Does he know/agree with a different school for next 2 years? Being in the middle of a divorce may make that difficult if he doesn't agree. Also, it's difficult to make new friends, settle into a new building, classes, processes, etc. two years into high school. Is he splitting time between you and your wife now? Don't underestimate your son's long-range planning ability -- he may be planning with his mother and will continue to remain non-committal to anything you propose. A tough tightrope to walk for both you and him.

[jisp]

vp4,
It is not unusual for parents to step in with tutors and pressure to get good grades out of fear for their child's future. That fear is based on this misguided notion that if you fall "off" the designated railroad tracks to a good college that your future is screwed and you will be destined to a life as an underachiever who will always be struggling financially. Well maybe you do not explicitly think that but admit it, this is your motivation for having your son get good grades, take AP classes and is what makes your son's love of YouTube so frightening.

Fear is never a good guide for anything. And it often causes us to be reactionary rather than pro-active and strategic.

You can not force your son to be motivated. Motivation will not come by him working all the time to get A's to please his father. Motivation will not come by taking challenging AP classes either. Motivation happens because a child stumbles upon something that speaks to them and triggers a desire in them. Motivation happens because the child is able to imagine an adult life they want and decides that what they want is worth the work it will take to achieve it. Motivation is not something you can parent into a child. In fact when we push a child to do something we often steal from them the time and energy they need to sit pack and ponder the world and what potential is out there for them to explore. And parents often underestimate how those supposedly "wasted" moments shape a child. I know one young boy who spent his entire HS career playing the card came "Magic" rather than doing school work. But that boy then went on to college and ended up studying computer science. I suspect many of the lessons he learned playing Magic about combinatorics helped shape is success as a computer scientist. A child who watches movies or videos might be absorbing what works visually and what doesn't work visually on the screen. They might eventually become the next Weinstein Brother or Steven Spielberg. They might decide after watching so many videos they want to go into production or sound design or editing. They might decide to become a script writer.

Children mature at different rates. There are children who at age 14 seem to know what they want and have found their passion. There are others who take longer and need more time. Sometimes failure can be inspirational. My own father, a prize winning scientists and professor at a leading University was a partier in HS. The guidance counselor told my grandfather to note waste money sending him to college because he would never amount to anything. But my father remembers falling in love with physics in college and realizing that he wanted to be more than just a drunk. He started to work at his classes and ended up getting into a top graduate school and then on to prestigious post-doc and tenure. Craig Venture (who is the scientist who helped sequence the human genome) was a D student in high school. He then joined the military. I am not sure when things shifted for him but somewhere on his journey he found something he was interested in and applied himself and succeeded.

If you do not have faith in your son's ability to plan and organize his future how is he going to have faith in himself to be in charge of his own life? Give your son space. Let him fail and let him stumble and BELIEVE in your son's ability to pick himself up and FLY and you will be pleasantly surprised.

[vp4]

I didn't say anything wrong 3.65 (3.95 last year). But a B- in his primary area of strength is worrisome. He is headed to a career in Engineering (at least my idea and he is slowly coming around to that). Can't struggle in Algebra. That is why my intent to help him with a tutor. Is that harmful? I don't want to turn this discussion towards my "marriage." He isn't planning squat with his mother. If he is, may god help him. I talk to him frequently about his interests in future and he never once mentioned his mom. He doesn't know yet my plans for next two years but I did speak with him in general terms about going to a better school closer to home. I am still hashing it out with his mom. I don't want him to go back to current school as I want a better school, for lesser money too (I am the only parent who pays the tuition, 50k/year, despite his mom earning six figure income herself. So saving a bit of money is important). I am puzzled when people talk about disruptions in going to a new school. Millions of kids do that. In my son's case, he has no friends at current school. He still is close two of his buddies from middle school. He spends time with them when he is home from school and uses video chat when he is at school. My goal is to help him succeed in a better school environment. Don't know if that ruins him. Would having him home and getting him help with tutors be harmful?

It is hard for me to know how kids whose parents were very involved in day to day work turn out after they go to college. Near my home there is a tutoring place which is primarily used by asian kids and their tiger moms. Some kids go there during the academic year for tutoring help. During summer for 6 weeks, they go there for 8 hours a day, 4 days a week to get enrichment in classes they plan to take next year. I have seen many of these kids succeed in going to top universities (disclaimer....I am not pushing my son towards a top university). I don't know what happens to them after that. Did they end up being unhappy adults because of their tiger moms, etc... I had spoken to the director of this place and she tells me her students are happy and successful adults. I am not sure because their schedule seems to have not much free time. I have mostly left my son alone during summer but that is changing this summer as he will be going to this school for enrichment. Reading some of the experiences in this thread, I am ambivalent now but as healthy said no two kids are alike.

[healthy11]

My thoughts are similar to dihicks and jisp's. In addition to the social aspects of changing schools, there are always difficulties getting adjusted to new facilities and general teacher expectations/rules, etc. I understand where you may have to make a change due to financial reasons, but I wouldn't do it if you're just thinking your son will be able to get even better grades at a new school. I don't think there's anything to be ashamed about having a 3.65 GPA with a B (or even two) ~ I'm even less convinced of the need to hire a tutor when you mention that the current Algebra teacher is a pain in the fanny and docks points for things like having a messy binder, because the grade isn't just a reflection of his math understanding. If you hire a tutor who organizes his binder neatly, and the grade goes up, does that really show your son has improved? No, it doesn't.

My son's GPA was just above 3.0 coming out of H.S., and yet he was accepted into every college he applied to. He graduated from college with just under a 3.0, but still found a well-paying full-time job with a "Fortune 50" aerospace company, in his chosen field of electrical engineering. He is now supporting himself 100% financially on his own. He is still learning about budgeting his time and his money, but he's managed to come a long way from when he was in high school and just played video games, too. (Now he just spends most of his money and free time buying/working on modifying motorcycles and cars, but that's his passion...it's too bad he doesn't want to move to Detroit, where he would probably thrive doing engineering work for an automotive company, but his girlfriend is still in IL...)

I recommend that you read this article, which points out that some of the most successful business people were not the students who always got the best grades:
www.thomasjstanley.com/blog-articles/228/Chinese_Mother-_Not_of_the_Millionaire_Next_Door!.html

[vp4]

jisp, very well put. I admit it. My worry for him is how he will do in future. He is the only child and I won’t be leaving him with any money as I am not wealthy. I can only leave him with a good education which hopefully helps him to have a fruitful and happy life. You are spot on about motivation. I am sure there are threads here where I whined about his lack of motivation. I have slowly come around to accepting it. I always felt my son’s maturity is about 3-4 years behind his 16 years age. I had even thought about gap year after high school to do things like traveling and volunteering so he sees more of what is out there and grows a little before going to college.
I have given him space. I didn’t intervene for two trimesters. When he screwed up not turning in homework, etc. I stayed in the background. I let teachers speak with him about it and kept quiet myself. Here is his typical week. Classes from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM. Free time including dinner between 5 PM and 7:30 PM. Free time is mostly youtube time. Homework between 7:30 – 9:30 PM and then bed time. Repeat this for 5 days. On weekends, he spends 90% of his awake time on youtube. I drive 160 miles each weekend to take him to dinner. I have left him alone even when I see a week’s worth clothes on the floor of a tiny dorm room. There was just one time, I took him to a Laundromat before dinner where we washed his clothes. I am letting him screw up. I am letting him fail and struggle in Algebra 2. But, the happy stories you wrote about may not be what he could have. While I am concerned for him, I also take solace in the fact that I was a lot like him when I was a teen with same learning differences. When I went to college, something clicked and I did a lot better in my areas of weakness. I did have tutors in high school and they weren’t of much help because I was never tested and diagnosed with learning difficulties and these tutors didn’t know how to help. My parents thought sending me to tutors would fix what ailed me. Never worked. But my son is different. He had been tested and he is getting what he needs.

[vp4]

healthy, changing school is not for better grades. I probably should have explained reasons better. I have sent him to his current school because he needed academic support in LA. I wasn't going to send him to public school. This school also happens to have a population of at risk kids with prior disciplinary and even criminal issues (no axe murderers, just juvenile criminal issues like drugs, etc) They have no programs besides some sports outside classroom. The college matriculation record is putrid. My son complains on ocassion about kids smoking something in the bathrooms at the dorm. Do I want him around that atmosphere? No. My son's LA teachers tell me that he has made great progress in LA. His writing teacher says he shouldn't need academic support classes any longer. I am spending about 50K a year because he is in the dorm. He still struggles mightily when tested like in PSAT. He got a 117 and that is abysmal. Could be just be one of those kids who will not do well in high stakes testing like PSAT, SAT, etc. I need to spend less money. I can send him to a better private high school with more opportunities and keep him home costing me about 36K/year. With the savings, I could help him where needed. He isn't getting a B- because of his binder. That was just one reason why his grade is low. His teacher tells me he struggles with some concepts. I am not going to hire him a tutor to help him with binder. That would be silly. He needs to do better this year so that when he does Pre-Calculus next year, he will be fine.

[vp4]

Others may not have seen it but I posed in another thread. My son was on a list of kids eligible for the National Honors Society this year because of his grades and community service. He was asked to fill out a document that lists all his grades so far in high school and all the community service he performed. He had two weeks to fill it out. I was very happy and told him how proud I am. I offered to help if needed in filling out paperwork. He said no. He didn't turn in paperwork before deadline. He couldn't give me a reason why. Perhaps the difficulties with organization. While I was furious, I didn't yell and do anything like that. I let him fail so to speak, no? The advisor he meets with daily before classes start never asked him about the paperwork. Really? What the bleep is an advisor for? Another reason (amongst the many) for me to not send him back to that school. I hadn't said anything to the school about this though. I felt like he needed some guidance. When I offered, he refused. His advisor did nothing, at least my son said he never asked about the paperwork.

[dihicks6]

I see and understand all your reasons for changing school, and they are good ones. Let us know what your son thinks of moving to this school. I suspect that because it means he will live with you, you may encounter some foot-dragging, LOL! Would he be able to choose which parent to live with if he changes schools?

[vp4]

If he has to choose which parent to live with, it will be his mom of course. He will never be told to get off his a*s and go for a walk, bike or something. Will never be told to get off youtube and do something else. I am in the midst of a custody battle seeking equal custody (live alternate weeks with each parent as opposed to I seeing him once every two weekends). Ugh... He may prefer to stay at current school (I haven't spoken to him directly about changing schools yet and don't really know what he will say, not that he will have final say) and one reason could be because has has a lot of freedom and he doesn't seem me for more than a few hours each week, unless he is on a break or vacation with me.  Sometimes I feel like he seems me as a giant dollar sign.....

BTW, I started watching Ken Robinson videos on youtube (gulp...). Agree with a lot of what he has to say.

[jisp]

vp4,
A few more thoughts. Although I am a big believer in "hands off" parenting there are also times when parents need to be "hands on" (geez why can't it ever be black and white and simple …right?) And there are times when a child lacks motivation when it is developmental or they are busy doing something that the parents sees as less productive but is actually laying the foundation for something that later will be part of the child's success narrative. But there are also times when lack of motivation is a serious symptom and is worthy of attention. So here goes my check list for lack of motivation:
1: Health- If you lack energy then you will lack motivation. Make sure your child's thyroid is in balance and their TSH is at a good level. Keep in mind that for some children borderline TSH levels can cause lethargy and problems. Endocrinologists will insist the level is fine but a psychiatrist who is knowledgeable might agree to treat it. It is worth exploring. Also make sure that the child is not suffering from allergies or hearing problems or sinus problems or sleep issues.
2: Depression- Teen years are often when mental health rears it's ugly head. If you have a family history of depression, alcoholism, mania etc….it pays to get your son evaluated just to rule this out.
3: Anxiety can shut a teen down and is another element of mental health that can impact how motivated a child appears.
4: Use of Weed, MJ or any related product. For some people these substances take the edge of allowing them to be more productive. But for others they can cause paranoia, anxiety, lack of motivation, hallucinations and more. Even small amounts can be problematic for some people.
5: Bad educational teaching. Some kids are kinesthetic learners. Others need to see and hear. While others need art or music to stimulate them. If your son has not seen the wide range of what is available out there they might feel as though education has nothing to offer but drudgery. I will never forget when our son spent time on a science-sailing program and came home excited because he learned that scientists were NOT people who just sat around thinking and writing and reading but they were DOERS. It was an eye opener for him. Expose your son to as much excitement in the wider world as possible. Travel is great for that. But also seek out scientists and artists and filmmakers and musicians and people doing exciting things for your son to meet so he can see that the world is a big place filled with interesting things to do.

Finally do not judge your son by what you see at 16. At 16 my daughter was convinced she wanted to become an actress in NYC and science was stupid and she had no need for it. At 16 my middle son was failing ALL academic subjects in High School and had not yet managed to pass even basic Algebra. At 16 my youngest talked about loving music but felt he was not good enough to ever get accepted into a conservatory. Fast forward: DD is becoming a nurse practitioner and talks about getting her doctorate in public health. She is taking more science than she ever imagined she would take when she was 16. My middle son was just accepted into top tier (group 1) Phd Programs in Mathematics (fully funded) and my youngest is a successful student at a top conservatory (maybe the best conservatory…depending on who you talk to). All of three of them struggled. All three of them were kids who I feared might not make it. All three had their share of bad luck and challenges throw at them from the outside world. And yet here they are today each doing what they love and being successful at it. Was it easy…NO WAY. And trust me as mom there was a lot of hand wringing and tears and worry and fear. Be strong for your son. He will someday thank you for intervening over the things that matter and letting go of the things that don't.

[empeg1]

vp4, There are times to step forward and times to step back. With my youngest, I stepped forward when, as a HS junior, dd looked at friends who were planning on attending community college and she complained. DD went to a highly competitive, ton of work, public high school and she said why can't I not try so hard and go to community college. Nope, came my response. Living away at college can be a life changing experience and you will regret the choice you want to make now and I simply will not allow you to do this. Youngest dd didn't have LD. After a month or two of grumbling, she hit the books again and, today, thanks me for the push I gave her. She is a junior at university. But, I gotta tell you, she did not graduate with a 3.65 GPA and she is going to a good college.
And, there was not a long standing pattern of me having to push her with academics. The above point is where I worry for your son. It seems perhaps that you are supplying the motivation for your son to do well and he is providing the counterpoint to your push and parental worry. I wonder if part of the reason why he likes u-tube so much is that it is simply a way to escape and to push back against the pressure you supply around grades. If the above is the case, then what will happen when he is at college? Who will supply his motivation to do well at that point, when he is 18 and you don't get to see his grades? Sometimes when we push too hard, the reaction is not greater excellence or commitment to academics but a counter reaction, just to the pressure.
Changing schools is not just about friends. It is a huge adjustment, especially in HS, when he gets to be the new kid on the block again and he gets to adjust to new teachers, environment, etc. I think if you want buy in with your teen it may be an idea to ask him what he feels is best so that he gets to feel that the decision is also his. Ownership often can improve effort. And, at some point coming up fast, it will be your son's effort in school and not yours that will make the difference.
Ditto for the choice of career. I feel it is fine to bring up ideas for a young person to consider, but not for a parent to choose what a young person will do for work in his lifetime. Your son is young and when he goes to college he will get the chance to explore subjects he has never had a chance to study in high school. Such learning is a big part of the college experience and growing into the adult he will become.

[dwolen]

Jisp, can you provide a link to the ted talk you are referring to?
Without having accessing the content, it is hard to think about it in a non-ignorant way.
Without knowing the content beyond your summary, now that I think about this more, I wonder if Ken Robinson was referencing children without learning disabilities? Every child is different, and, if I may, I suggest that learning disabled children may need home support.

School is set up for those with adequate executive functioning.
I have adequate executive functioning. I got by without parental involvement (but lots of praise and positive reinforcement) in school. My sister had less executive functioning, and her grades were not as not as good as mine and she always felt she was stupid, all her life. My dh has pretty bad executive functioning, and his school career was dismal until the age of 32, when he started to go to college (unemployment insurance helped a lot and then his grades brought a scholarship), and became an A student in math and physics, taught himself computer programming (never took programming in college)at age 36, and had a 25+ year career in computer programming/analyst subsequently. Our biologic dd has pretty bad executive functioning and though we did not know that for far too long, we helped extensively with her homework, becoming her external executive function. One thing dd said she was grateful for was, that despite her severe dyslexia, when she got to Landmark College and compared herself to the other students with dyslexia, she could read nearly anything she wished. At LC, many students start out learning how to read, using the Wilson method (an O-G method). I don't think she would have learned to read without all the tutoring, and home support, and she would not have read a book each month through middle school and wouldn't have written the book reports if I had not typed them. She would have been too embarrassed to turn her hand written book report in.

Vp4's son has high function spectrum issues, I believe. Aren't executive functioning problems highly correlated with on the autism spectrum?

Having been there, i.e., as a former parental homework intervener, I can testify that once one takes on that role, it is hard to stop or even tone it down. It is like your nervous system is re-calibrated to constantly consider what is going on with the child/offspring.

[jisp]

link

[SharonF]

vpn--

You've gotten good advice from others. I just wanted to address your questions about why a kid might be getting a B- in a class that should be one of his strengths.

People who are really bright at math sometimes are not good in math class. Some can solve the equations accurately but have no clue how to show their work. They honestly can't explain the sequence of steps they used to solve the problem. They just "knew" the answer.

Often, people who are great at math excel at the hard stuff. But they stink at the so-called easy stuff. That's just how their minds are wired.

On the show "Cosmos" last night, they said Sir Isaac Newton was not a very good student. A check of Internet articles seems to confirm that. He apparently was also moody, prone to bursts of anger and had few friends. He holed up at Cambridge for more than a decade, immersed in deep thoughts and prolific writings on everything from religion to science to math. Some of his ideas were bizarre, but others were astonishingly accurate and centuries ahead of their time. It took Edmund Halley (the guy with a comet named after him) years of personal cajoling to get grumpy, withdrawn Isaac to publish his ground-breaking research.

My point: Newton was astonishingly brilliant. But he was an average student at best. And his behavioral quirks often drove others away or drove them crazy.

I'm not saying your son behaves like Newton. I'm saying that we tend to be taught only a one-dimensional perspective of the great minds of history. We see those people as 100% good and perfect (or 100% bad) with little or no understanding of the emotional nuances that brought them joy, that frustrated them or made them human.

You've already noted that your son's Algebra teacher calculates grades based on things like his binder and his organizational skills. Complying with authority is an important lesson. However, forcing your son to go to a tutor to teach him how to organize his binder for this teacher's pleasure may be counterproductive.

A tutor may help but may not. That's because your son's grade in the class may not be based on his effort or aptitude. It may be based on his ability to follow the textbook curriculum as presented and follow the teacher's arbitrary rules. The more you or a tutor push him to follow that rigidity, the less motivation your son might have. And the more he may dislike the subjects he shows great promise in.

I understand that grades are important. But it's sad that grades don't always reflect effort or aptitude. As dwolen said, grades often indicate a person's executive function. I would add that grades also often reflect the student's maturity level. I'm afraid Newton, Einstein and many other brilliant minds would have been doomed under our cookie-cutter mentality of instruction and testing.

Success comes in many forms. From what I've read in the past few hours, Newton was viewed as anything but successful during much of his life. Things eventually worked out. And because of Sir Isaac Newton, all of science and math has benefited for centuries. But I'm sure his family didn't envision that kind of success when Newton was a young man.

[vp4]

Thanks all for the feedback. I do want to say again my goal to get him a tutor is not to organize his binder but to help him with understanding concepts his teacher identified that he is having difficulty with.

I am thinking about all your feedback and what I am doing. For example, my son called today and said he didn't have quarters to do laundry at school. I had told him before he went back from Spring Break to get some rolls of quarters. He kept saying "I know." Obviously didn't take any. Today, he didn't have school clothes to wear for tomorrow. So, what did I do? I drove 160 miles to drop off some quarters and also took all his worn clothes to a laundromat to wash and return to him (he didn't have time to do laundry today). Then while driving back home, I thought if I did the right thing. Was there some lesson in somewhere that I should have let him learn? Am I doing too much for him was my thought. He is pretty independent when it comes to doing laundry but again the organizational skills are lacking. Had he listened to me in the first place, it would have saved me all that driving, gas and tolls.

[jisp]

vp4,
A rule I used (which is a rule I learned from a parent educator called Barbara Coloroso) is if it is not life threatening or permanent then think twice before interfering. What harm is there in wearing dirty clothes? None really except maybe some embarrassment. So why step in. If your son experiences the painful consequences of forgetting those quarters then the next time I can assure you he will remember to bring quarters back.

My youngest is a child who has awful executive function skills. We used to joke that he would forget his head and leave it on the kitchen table if it detached. I can't tell you how many times that boy forgot his lunch for school. I eventually stopped getting in the car to chase him down and give him his lunch. If I saw it on the counter I just put it aside for the following day. Guess what? By his senior year that boy was remembering his lunch.

[dihicks6]

Yup, if you hadn't gone, I bet he would've remembered those quarters next time, LOL! My youngest son has severe ADHD and some days, I seriously do not know how he accomplished as much as he has re his job. I sometimes go to take care of my granddaughters and when he gets ready for work, it's the exact same scenario every time -- can't find keys, wallet, glasses, etc. In addition, none of those things are in the same place. They are in three different places. Talk about lack of executive function! Somehow he has managed to be promoted to one of the top positions at his job. I just think about the herculean effort it must take to stay organized at work!

It does sound like this is a one-time issue, however, be careful about becoming the safety net for laundry, LOL!

[healthy11]

I definitely wouldn't have driven 160 miles to do my son's laundry, but I suspect you are dealing more with the emotional aspects of wanting to "be there for your son" given the ongoing divorce situation, so he can't say you "didn't care about him." Be careful that he's not manipulating you. If it happens again, I'd recommend that you ask him if he can "borrow" some quarters from the hall adviser or another student (even pay the other kid a premium of $2, if all he has is dollar bills, just to get 4 quarters) because I can assure you that you've spent wayyy more than that in gas, etc. As others have said, dirty clothes won't hurt him, although it might be embarrassing, but next time he's more likely to remember his own quarters, instead of relying on you to get his laundry done.

[vp4]

Well, this has nothing to do with the divorce situation. I have always done what he needed and a lot more than his mother ever did. I am doing nothing new here. Problem with dirty clothes is that he stuffs them in his laundry basket and they will be all wrinkled, etc and he will never wear them again prior to washing. Last quarter I had seen that he was wearing a casual shirt to school one day and he received warning because they have strict dress code. That is why I remind him every time he comes home to take quarters. He would rather wear clothes that aren't allowed than wear a dirty dress shirt meant for school. I like your idea of borrowing from other kids. No more 160 mile laundry service from me.

[keepthefaith]

I briefly caught this research study on the news and then I immediately felt guilty as we have been told that we should/must help with homework and others have said "don't do it; you've provided false data to the school"...........

Anyways, this caught my eye. I truly believe this is key to the article and research - the pinnacle point where many student's success at school becomes evident - Teachers.

I vividly recall my (and my best friend with the brain cancer) - we both had a "6/7th ESP" Science Teacher, Mr. X. I didn't like science; my parents never helped with homework (unheard of) and I was accepted to 3 of the brightest high schools in a big city. This science teacher changed school as a whole for me. At the time, I had just moved back to NY from Ireland at age 12. His teaching style and his interest in seeing his students succeed changed the course for my future as a student. Already bright, he lit a fire for us.

As for DD, her Teachers have been key. We have had 4 very good if not great teachers the last few years. Some gave us advice, others "hints", others precise advice on how be properly see this through with DD. The teachers that really do care - I hope we don't many more of them and that those coming into the profession keep the fires burning - that is the best possible future for our children:

So how do you find out if next year's assigned teacher has a "good reputation" lol - all teachers I speak of - my neighbors didn't think highly of "they're too hard; they assign too much homework", etc. - if one thing I have learned it is to make my own decisions re teachers. Finally, I have a few friends who have 0 involvement and their kids are fine at school; then another group over-involved and they too are fine at school.........I truly believe Middle School is key in the scheme of K-12.
I don't know more than 4 "tiger Moms" but they are more interested in the lead role in the play!

From Article:

"Although Robinson and Harris didn’t look at school choice, they did find that one of the few ways parents can improve their kids’ academic performance—by as much as eight points on a reading or math test—is by getting them placed in the classroom of a teacher with a good reputation. This is one example for which race did seem to matter: white parents are at least twice as likely as black and Latino parents to request a specific teacher. Given that the best teachers have been shown to raise students’ lifetime earnings and to decrease the likelihood of teen pregnancy, this is no small intervention. "