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Post by beth on Aug 16, 2013 16:57:20 GMT -5
I have a 16 year old son who has been drinking for at least six months. He does not have a license nor do any of his friends. So he is being picked up and this is still going on. We have figured out some of his tricks--they stand outside the home so we don't go around to the back. One time we went looking for one of his friends and found about 30 kids outside drinking cans of beer.
Last night he came home drunk enough that he got sick. Before that I found him laying on the bathroom floor. He said he was just tired when I yelled his name but I don't buy any of it. And his older brother has now told us stories about his drinking at the beach when he drove him and his friend. They somehow got drinks from other people at the beach and were quite drunk. My older son drove them around for an hour and a half until they got sober enough.
What to do? My husband and I neither drank in high school and it was less common then than it seems to me now. Our older son did the same but we were so dumb we didn't figure it out as quickly. He would spend the night at a friend's house and once we figured that out, we put an end to it. But honestly, I don't think the older one started it until nearly done with his junior year while the younger one started this nonsense in his sophomore year of high school. And, as I said, this has gone on with parents doing the transporting.
We told him after there was drinking at the party above that we would call the parents ahead of time. So then he lied--told us he was in one place but wasn't--and got caught. We grounded him for memorial day weekend (four day weekend) and took his phone away. This time I didn't check on anything--he was going and coming with people I knew, although I didn't know the boy himself. And it was a weeknight and I had just helped pack up my older son for college. IOW, I was tired.
I don't know how much checking up helps either because the kids are pretty clever with cell phones and the like. I checked up with my older son his senior year for an after party and it turns out it was the older sister of the kid I talked to. My son gleefully told me this about a year later.
Any suggestions?
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Post by bros on Aug 16, 2013 18:25:04 GMT -5
Around here, most people start drinking in 7th or 8th grade.
If not then, they start drinking in 9th grade.
Most don't drink.
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Post by jisp on Aug 16, 2013 20:37:55 GMT -5
Beth watch the UK version (not the US MTV version) of SKINS. That will put this in perspective. Well not really and it certainly will not comfort you to see what things teen do.
I think the most important thing is to not demonize alcohol. Yes there are laws about drinking but the reality is that everyone drinks before they are officially of age. Some handle their liquer better than others.
So the real issue is safety and proper use of alcohol. Most colleges have an alcohol education course that they make kids take before starting their freshman year. You might want to see if you can find a copy and have your son take it with you sitting there. You need to not only talk to your son about the dangers of drinking and driving, but you also need to have some frank honest conversations about alcoholism, alcohol poisoning and the fact that people do die from alcohol related accidents all the time (drownings, falling on stairs etc....)
As for supervision. Even if they are clever I think it pays to check up on them. At a minimum your kids know you are watching and paying attention. You are sending them a message that you care. Also keep the communication open. Don't fight them on every point just because you are afraid that they are being a bad kid. Make it clear what your expectations are for home and school. If they slip in those areas then you can sit them down and talk to them about it and hopefully that will give you an opportunity to express your view on some of their choices.
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 16, 2013 22:24:39 GMT -5
(( Hugs)) I'm surprised there are so many people willing to get booze for kids who aren't even old enough to drive. In my state, there are actually laws that say anyone who provides liquor to a minor is subject to legal action: "Illinois law makes it a misdemeanor just to provide alcohol to underage persons even if they don't cause any injury. If the underage person does cause an injury because they were drunk, the adult's crime jumps to a felony charge. The adult doesn't have to physically hand an underage person the alcohol to be liable either. It's sufficient that they should have reasonably known there would be underage drinking on their property and failed to stop it." My son's former high school recently made national news because they will soon be starting routine hair sampling to detect alcohol use; they've been doing drug testing since 2007, when my son still attended. abcnews.go.com/US/illinois-high-school-snip-students-hair-test-alcohol/story?id=19896307 At this stage, I definitely would not allow your son to get his license, because it's not a "right," but a "privilege," and it seems like he's not demonstrating responsible behavior or respect of the laws...he's a potential danger not only to himself, but to others, should he get behind the wheel after drinking. Do you think any of the other parents are aware of what's going on? If you all "banded together" to try and keep tabs on the kids, it might reduce the occurrences, although I know it wouldn't stop completely. I realize your older son is in a fraternity and not yet 21, but while staying at your house, was he abiding by the rules and not drinking? If he seems like he's become more responsible, and since he's on good terms with his sibling, I wonder what would happen if you told him that you're very concerned, and asked him to talk to his younger brother about cutting back on his alcohol consumption? At my son's college, there was a student who died from alcohol poisoning last year, and I think it was a "wake up call" to other kids, to reduce the binge drinking, even if it doesn't completely stop it.
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Post by beth on Aug 16, 2013 22:25:47 GMT -5
My husband and I both drink socially so I am not opposed to alcohol per se. And I think making the legal drinking age 21 was a big mistake. I see on college campuses that the drinking is hidden as opposed to when I was in school and even the dorms had keg parties. But we are talking about high school now.
One thing that really disturbs me is how many parents facilitate drinking. I don't remember any parents doing that when I was a teenager. The parents were home when the kids were all in the back yard drinking beer. The father was even a cop. I just don't get it.
Apart from the safety issues what stand did you take with your kids when they were in high school? Is it reasonable to expect them to socialize without alcohol? I did and my husband did but our kids are not very much like us.
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Post by beth on Aug 16, 2013 22:45:49 GMT -5
healthy--our older son actually spilled the beans on what his brother was doing at the beach. He told my husband that he couldn't believe how his brother was not learning from experience. That is amazing coming from him. He is worried about him which given the things he has done is not especially comforting.
The older one threw a party when we were out of town and we figured it out without much problem. He lost car privileges for the summer except for work and class. The younger one obviously knew our position. I know college students drink but I do not want them drinking in my house and we had been clear about that.
Some of the alcohol was taken from parents' liquor cabinet including ours. We accused the older one of taking the vodka and filling it with water. He denied it but we didn't believe him because we were having problems with him lying at the time. We don't really drink much hard liquor but my sister who lives out of town makes great tropical drinks. She bought vodka at Christmas and returned at Easter to find the bottle filled with water. We have since locked our cabinet and hid the key. Of course, stealing your parents' liquor is the time honored way to drink in high school. That part doesn't shock me. It is the parents who even go as far as to serve it to minors.
His high school does random drug testing but not alcohol.
I am friends with one of my son's best friends and we had a long talk tonight about all of this. She had been suspicious about the beach and alcohol before me. I think we can shut that down. The socializing is a more difficult issue. My husband right now (and he is out of town) is inclined to not let him do anything other than school activities, scouts, and fishing (he loves fishing, and having friends spend the night. He has several friends who regularly spend the night at our house (rotating among them) which we have no problem with. In other words, no get togethers or parties at all.
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 16, 2013 22:59:29 GMT -5
You were probably writing at the same time I posted my response. I feel fortunate that I have "state laws" to back me up. (It would certainly prevent a parent who is a cop from hosting underage parties!) I definitely did NOT allow any drinking before my son and his friends turned 21. Even now, when he has people over, if there are "unfamiliar faces," I ask what grade they're in, etc. and if they're not at least college seniors, they need to prove to me that they're old enough. (For example, tonight my son is home and he has 3 friends over. One is a year older than my son, another is two years younger, and the third girl I never met...she's the sister of someone, and only a college sophomore. She admitted she's not 21, but she has a health issue, so she said she won't be drinking even then.) I found that by providing a LOT of other snacks/non-alcoholic beverages instead, the kids, even in high school, still congregated at our house, despite a "ban on liquor." They would watch movies, play cards, etc. and I always used the "excuse" of seeing if any food trays were empty and needed refilling, to walk into whatever area they were in, and make sure things weren't out of control. (One more thing, my son's high school instituted a ban on water bottles, after some kids were suspected of bringing them "spiked" to class. I decided to do the same thing when kids would come over to our house, and tell them to put their containers back in the car, because I had plenty of water to drink if they wanted it.)
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Post by empeg1 on Aug 17, 2013 3:34:21 GMT -5
Beth: I think you have several issues going on with your son at the same time. One is trust. I always told my youngest dd that her privileges were based on my trust with her. So, as she went through the HS years I gave her more and more freedom, based on her responsibility. By senior year, she did not have a curfew, etc. But, your son is not showing trust worthy behavior. He is not telling you the truth, repeatedly, and is sneaking around.
Driving, as with Healthy, I would put an absolute ban on your younger son getting a learner's permit or driving. And, I would tell him upfront that as long as he is drinking you will not allow him to get his license, period. He will need your consent until he is 18.
Then too, a large group of teens drinking can be a dangerous scene. What would they do if the police are called and showed up? My friend has a daughter, whom I have known all of her life. This young lady was invited to a party in HS and she did not attend because she was sick that night. Her next door neighbor attended as did the girl's best friend. The police came and the kids scattered in panic. The next door neighbor and the best friend panicked and ran into a car of a boy. The girl had a seat; the boy was in the back of a hatchback. The 16-year-old driver was drunk. He hit a tree. The boy in the back was killed instantly. The best friend- she will be in a wheelchair the rest of her life. My friend's daughter was a good kid, an A student and she would have been in that car too. Kids panic and do what they have been told not to do. Lives ended and were ruined. The 16-year-old boy is in an adult prison.
Heavy drinking at such a young age is not safe. Binge drinking is not safe. My oldest daughter had a 14-year-old friend who snuck in a bottle of vodka to a teen music spot-one with parent chaperones, sponsored by the city. I received a phone call at 9:30 at night, "Mom, Danielle won't wake up". I rushed over to find a younger girl passed out in my car, having vomited everywhere, and no she could not be roused. I called 911. This 14-year-old woke up three days later on a respirator in ICU. My daughter saved this girl's life by calling me. I also told my girls, if you are in trouble and do not feel safe, call me. I will come and not ask questions. I will come and you will not be punished. My daughter heard me and I followed my word.
Your older son is worried about his brother. Heed his worry. I agree with your husband. Your son is not just drinking; he is getting drunk, in unsafe situations at a young age and he is lying and sneaking around. His behavior is telling you, "I can't handle this responsibly". I would agree with restricting his social activities to times when he is supervised. But, what happens after school? Does he come home by himself? Make a plan.
BTW, the parents in whose house the party was held and whose liquor was served? They were prosecuted as well.
Peg
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Post by jisp on Aug 17, 2013 5:51:53 GMT -5
Beth it is interesting to think about an alternative reality where the drinking age is not 21. Wait we don't need to imagine such a world, because it exists. Two years ago when visiting Vienna Austria my kids saw a bunch of 14-15 year olds stumble off a train. They had open bottles of hard alcohol on them and were clearly very drunk (all perfectly legal). One of the boys had clearly had too much and was getting sick. It was scary. But at the same time at least 2 other adults, including an old lady approached them and asked if they were OK or needed help. Now I am not saying that Europe is ideal. My husband who spent his teen years in Europe said that they do have a problem with alcoholism. But some things stand out. One teens do not need to drive because there is an amazing public transportation system that runs 24 hours a day, compared to Boston where the system shuts down at Midnight if not earlier. The other interesting thing was to hear my kids comments on this scene. My youngest was still in HS and his response was "at least they are doing it out in the open where there are adults rather than hidden in the basement of some house where if something goes wrong there is nobody to help." My daughter and son made it clear that they had all been in scenes like that with other kids.
In the UK things are also different. Drinking is part of the social landscape. After 4 on almost any workday you can see tons and tons of young adults standing outside pubs drinking and talking. You will sometimes see kids or families among these crowds of people. Again the UK is not immune from Alcoholism and certainly they have their share of problems with teen drinking. But I sense that there is a lot less pressure to get drunk just for the sake of getting drunk because drinking has a cultural role.
Now to the last question about whether it is reasonable to ask them to socialize without alcohol. My middle son has a neurological issue that makes any use of any mind altering substance dangerous. His one foray into this area landed him in the hospital and scared him. He has no desire to drink or use any mind altering drugs. High school was hard for him socially. His sister brought him to a few parties but he found it hard to have fun among kids who were just getting high or drunk. And initially college was challenging as well. Then two summers ago he was working with a range of young adults, many of whom were Juniors or Seniors in college or were graduate students. And he saw that he could have a great time with people who were drinking socially and not just drinking to get drunk. It was a huge eye opener for him. He discovered non-alcoholic beer and wine as well. Most bars have these products for those who do not or can not drink. And/or he gets virgin cocktails.
Now my youngest learned his lesson by watching his older brother. He drinks, but he is very cautious knowing that his biology is not all that different from his brother's and fearing that he may tip the scale at some point. He had fun in Amsterdam this summer where he was given free beers for being in the band at clubs.
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Post by michellea on Aug 17, 2013 8:27:42 GMT -5
Beth - First - hugs. This is a very difficult situation and I am afraid there are no "right" answers and I believe that while you will be able to influence your son's behavior, I do not believe that you will be able to control it unless you literally lock him up. Teens that want to drink, will find a way. I know this from experience.
But, you can control what you can control.
I agree that driving should be off the table. It is a privilege, not a right. It does not appear that your son has demonstrated that he is ready for such a privilege. His decision making regarding drinking is poor, and he has lost your trust. Perhaps you can put some guidelines and goals in place in which he can win back the trust and demonstrate he is ready. But for now, driving is something that you can use as a carrot and I would. Not to mentions, there are some real dangers around driving and drinking. You can also demonstrate and talk about what is acceptable drinking practices - how much, how to self monitor, how to gracefully back away from drinking pressure. I always checked in with parents that were hosting parties. My daughter hated it. We caught her in a couple of sneaking situations where there was drinking - she knew that we knew most of the "tricks" and that we were on guard. Did this stop drinking completely? No. But I know it made her think and it probably cut down on the number of occasions that drinking was involved. We follow the law. Even if other families allow underaged drinking in their homes, we do not. (In our state parents can allow their children a drink, and we have allowed one drink on certain occasions). But, we do not supply our daughter or her friends with alcohol - even while she is in college. The stakes are too high. Finally, we have had some very frank discussions about:
1. There are legal issues. My guess is that your son thinks he is invincible or if he does get caught the cops will show discretion. I speak from experience that teens can and do get caught and in some states (don't know your laws), this can mean jail time, a criminal record and huge legal bills for possession, disturbing the peace, public drunkenness and other charges. Get caught with a fake ID and driving will be a moot point. If his friend possess or are drunk at your house or in your cars, you might be on the hook. 2 Safety issues - fighting, assault (sexual and otherwise), falling, crashing, alcohol poisoning, and more are all real safety issues. He will think that they do not apply to him. But he needs to hear about it all from you so that he understands in "theory" what can happen and needs to have a plan in case something bad does happen. If he is drunk, he will have a hard time making good decisions. 3 Long term health issues - STD's, Alcoholism. The earlier one begins to abuse alcohol, the higher the probability they will become an abuser. The brain is developing and the use of alcohol during this developmental time opens up certain pleasure pathways and closes down the pathways associated with the "off switch". 4. Social issues: reputation, difficulty attending a party when everyone is wasted and you are not, alternatives.
I agree that the drinking age should be 18. But it is not. And even if it was, I am very concerned about youngsters that begin binge drinking in their early to mid teens. I think this is your concern too. Hugs as you work with him- it is not easy. But, you are not alone.
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Post by eoffg on Aug 17, 2013 10:00:13 GMT -5
I would suggest that the critical issue is learning to drink responsibly. Where the teenage years are where this learning begins. Where imposing an arbitrary age, for transition from illegal to legal is really absurd. From Off, to full On. Where the patterns of alcohol usage in teenage years, have predictable outcomes for long term usage as an adult.
What I might suggest, is that the use of alcohol be viewed as a skills acquisition process? So that the teenage years, could rather be used to help develop a responsible use of alcohol. Through a graduated introduction, as opposed to off/on. Which could also include an education about personal usage in various contexts? About the responsible use of self-medication.
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Post by michellea on Aug 17, 2013 12:18:37 GMT -5
eoffg - You are probably right, and 18 is not a "magic" age - but certainly better than 21. The problem is the laws and the culture in the US are what they are. And while many would say it drives underground, underaged, binge drinking (and I agree), the laws and the culture are what we as US parents have to deal with.
I know of underaged drinkers that drink "responsibly" and practice reasonable social drinking practices. But if a cop orders a breathalyzer, they could end up in jail with a criminal record. So, the reality of the laws needs to enter in the equation -driving an on or off scenario.
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Post by beth on Aug 17, 2013 16:31:24 GMT -5
Thanks for all the comments. I am still composing myself to talk to my son. My husband came home late last night from taking our older son back to college and we still have not agreed on what to do.
It seems to me there are several issues here (I am talking out loud now)
1. trust--he knows what the law says and he knows what our values are and he has disregarded this. We have given him the benefit of the doubt and he has taken advantage of it. 2. safety--he is downplaying the seriousness of what he is doing. He does not seem to be embarrassed or ashamed. 3. ability to make good decisions
I am thinking that we need to talk to him about these issues. I am thinking that we need to 1) eliminate beach visits that do not have a parent chaperone who we know 2) drive him to any get together and meet the parents and ask about alcohol. (ideas about how to do so?) The later will mortify him and may result in him not going but I am not sure that is a bad thing.
Thoughts?
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Post by jisp on Aug 17, 2013 17:22:43 GMT -5
Beth love the strategy!!! I think you are taking a wise parenting approach. He will be angry with you. He will insist you are being irrational. But in the end he will respect you for doing what you are going to do.
Stay consistent and be clear. Do not make this about "him" being a bad kid. He is a good kid who made some bad choices and now must pay the consequences. Remind him that you love him.
Good Luck. Been in your shoes and I don't envy you. I am glad to have this sort of thing behind me.
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 17, 2013 18:24:18 GMT -5
Beth, I think the direct approach is the best, when it comes to serious matters like this. There is nothing more valuable than a child's life, and in my opinion, your treating this as a high priority will convey that it's important, and you really care. (He won't appreciate it now, but when he's older, and a parent himself, I'll bet he will.)
I remember a few years ago, when we agreed to let our son host a "Super Bowl Party." (I think it was during his Junior year of H.S.) Since he struggled so much with friendships in elementary and middle school, we were glad to see him try to be more "sociable" in high school, but at the same time, we wondered how many unfamiliar people would attend, and what would they be "trying to get away with." As I mentioned above, my husband and I were definitely "chaperoning," and my husband, given his interest in the game, used it as an excuse to constantly go into the room to watch the action both "on the screen," as well as "amongst the fans in our house." Shortly after the game began, one girl (whom I'd never seen before) had her phone start ringing, and of course, the rest of the kids (about 20 total) started teasing her, "Who is calling you now...don't they know the game started??" Well, it turned out to be her mother, who asked to speak to one of the parents, so my husband took the phone, and I overheard him say, "Yes, there is adult supervision, and no, there is no alcohol." Then, he ended up handing the phone to me in the kitchen, and I was puzzled....The girl's mother said, "I'm sorry, but I don't always trust my daughter, because I can't always tell how old males are from their voices. Was that really your husband? She went on a supposedly chaperoned trip to Europe with her previous school's Italian Club, and we got a call that she was hospitalized with alcohol poisoning, so now I always double-check that parents are really staying around with the kids at all times." I assured her we were NOT serving any alcohol, and would be home the entire time the party was taking place. The mom sounded very grateful.
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Post by sleepy on Aug 17, 2013 21:10:51 GMT -5
If he has the right kind of smartphone you can have a tracker app installed. Also some other phones have gps enabled so you can set up tracking. You might want to consider this because often kids don't stay where they say they will be. Some parents can be tricked into thinking that other kids have been given permission to leave to go somewhere else.
We have friends that had this set up with their children long before they were even thinking of making bad choices. The rule always was that the tracker stayed on, the phone stayed charge, and they were required to answer within a specific time frame. If any of these rules were violated, there were consequences of being grounded. The parents rationale was that if they couldn't trust the child enough to follow these simple rules, they couldn't trust the child to make bigger decisions.
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Post by bros on Aug 17, 2013 21:33:42 GMT -5
If it's an Android phone and you have access to the account it's linked to, you can have it automatically install a tracking app remotely, and it'll text you its GPS coordinates
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Post by michellea on Aug 18, 2013 9:34:14 GMT -5
Good luck, Beth. Stay calm. Be empathetic. It sounds like your talk points are right on target and non judgmental. And like Jisp says, he won't like it and will push back. This is normal - part age, part saving face, part rebellion. But if you consistently deliver the same message some of it will stick.
And yes, I would eliminate the beach visits. I was like Healthy and the girls parents that called Healthy's house for the Superbowl. I always checked in with parents and I think they were happy. Just this summer I had to butt into a situation with a parent (my daughter is in college). She was the designated driver for a concert and I would not let her drive the kids because I knew there was going to be alcohol in the car. Even though she was not drinking, she could be charged with underaged possession and we would be considered the hosts of the situation and on the hook too. (i ended up driving her to the train station and the kids drove themselves to the station and met her - missed having dinner w them on the way in. I allowed her to drive them home because I was fairly sure the booze would be gone by then) dd was embarrassed and felt she let her friends down by making the situation so complicated. But I could not let her drive with booze in the car - period. I didn't even want her to ride in from the train station with them - not knowing if they would have open containers. But I let that one go. It ended up ok.
We were able to get this through this situation I think because we have been direct, up front and consistent over the years. She also is fully aware of the consequences of underaged drinking from a legal standpoint. I hope that you get to the point where you can have fairly calm and frank discussions with your son and he develops some good decision making skills. I know it can happen!
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Post by beth on Aug 18, 2013 21:23:28 GMT -5
This didn't go so well. Lots of tears and my husband and I started contradicting each other. DS claims he only drank a couple times at the beach and that he didn't get sick--that was his friend. He also says that all the parties have alcohol at them but he hasn't always drank and he has never done what he did the other day. He says he wont' do it again.
He wants us to get a breathlizer and let him go to parties. We agreed to let him go to the beach under those conditions. We really don't like the big party route. We are at a stalemate at the moment.
He claims we are clamping down on him because his older brother screwed up so much. And he is mad that we have ignored the fact that his college aged brother drinks and drinks heavily. Honestly, we have pretty much given up on him---I am hoping that turning 21 makes a difference. He wasn't drinking as young as his brother and we didn't figure it out until half way through his senior year.
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Post by dwolen on Aug 18, 2013 22:44:01 GMT -5
Beth, it is not surprising that this did not go well. It is to be expected that your son will push back. So, I guess it went as one could expect it to go. A close friend's dtr had 2 episodes of alcohol poisoning. Thank goodness she survived. She regularly stayed out all night. One of her classmate's mothers let a bunch of kids stay over all night regularly, without any supervision. So laissez faire. The woman was a lawyer. My friend feels she has PTSD due to those years of her dtr's adolescence.
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Post by bros on Aug 18, 2013 23:17:08 GMT -5
Get him a keychain breathalyzer?
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Post by jisp on Aug 19, 2013 5:46:59 GMT -5
Beth-as Dwolen said and as I predicted he was going to push back and there were going to be tears and he was going to be angry. That is the nature of parenting a child at this age.
Negotiation is fine if and only if you have an agreed upon plan for what happens if you feel he is not taking your concern seriously enough. You don't want to be an irrational dictator parent because that does not work. On the other hand you don't want your child to be manipulating you constantly into not disciplining him. Does that make sense. One strategy could be that you tell your son that there are no beach parties/visits for one week or ten days and then afterwards he can go back. If he is responsible then you will continue to allow him the freedom to attend. But if he violates your trust then the next time will result in serious consequences.
If your younger son brings up his older brother I would make it clear that this is not about him. This is about him. And how you parent your older son is not relevant to the discussion the three of you are having. Yes of course your older son's drinking has influenced you. Seeing how alcohol can impact a young person's life is a wake up call. And your younger son should be grateful that you have learned to take alcohol abuse more seriously as a result.
As for disagreeing with your husband. We often take walks and come up with a mutual agreed upon stance when talking with our kids about something. Even then we sometimes still contradict each other. But it helps if going in to discussion we are at least on the same page. It doesn't always prevent the "he said, she said" thing that happens with couples and it is not unusual for us to have a post-kid discussion fight when things go badly. But over the years we have learned that it pays to go in prepared for their pushback and prepared to be a unified force.
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Post by beth on Aug 19, 2013 7:05:28 GMT -5
I don't feel good about the whole thing today. I think what happened is that our son pushed back, as we expected him to, but we didn't expect the "there is alcohol at every gathering" response and you won't let me go to the beach either. You are expecting me to do nothing for the last two years of high school". My husband initially felt bad and suggested the breathlizer, although we had never talked about it. Some of what he said that contradicted what I said was not intended. I think he got very stressed out and wasn't aware of what he was saying. We should have shut down the conversation entirely with some thing like "yes, we have had three days to talk about this but what we agreed to no beach, no parties at all. If you want us to think about the possibility of doing anything differently, we need to talk about it." We did leave the kitchen at a late time and talked--or I should say we fought. I don't think we really were on different pages but my husband wasn't in a place he could analyze and I tried to talk about what we were doing and he got mad at him for criticizing him. He was much more in a place to vent and I was pretty intolerant of that.
In the end, I think I screwed up by going back in and suggesting ds could go to the beach if he was breathlized (my husband had agreed but it really was my idea). I say this because the beach is a more consistent thing than parties. He really hasn't gone to very many, although of course that might change. I think we both were responding to the level of emotion which isn't a good idea.
There is nothing that prepares you for this. I think if I kept at this long enough I could get good at it but am not now.
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Post by healthy11 on Aug 19, 2013 7:56:32 GMT -5
Beth, you and your husband are not alone in terms of having parental disagreements about the way to deal with issues with offspring. You both care about your son, and you care about each other as spouses, but nobody has a "crystal ball" to know what the best approach to a given situation. No matter whose suggestion it was, I think it's encouraging that your son is agreeable to taking a breathalyzer test after each outing, but I still would communicate with other parents, to let them know what is happening at the gatherings that their kids are attending... It seems to me that if alternative activities were available (ie, a family who has a pool, who doesn't serve alcohol and doesn't mind hosting a large group of teens) maybe your son would feel less inclined to hang out at the beach all the time. When school resumes, are there organized clubs that your son could get involved in, which might keep him busy and minimize the "beach time?" (ie, my son was on a Drama backstage crew, and they had weekend gatherings/performances to stay occupied with...many of those kids remain his good friends today.)
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Post by michellea on Aug 19, 2013 9:48:24 GMT -5
Hi Beth, You began the process and made some gains. You also have a better idea of how he might react and areas that you and your husband need to iron out and prepare for. As you know, parenting is a process and there will most likely need to be more conversations with your son, infractions to deal with, and adjustments made. You laid a very important framework - and have begun getting through these trying times.
As far as going to beach parties - you have a safety net with the Breathalyzer and you can still call and contact the parents if you feel like you should. Again, your son may not like this, but it will demonstrate your commitment to "no alcohol" and still allow him a social life.
It's easy to evaluate your responses and beat yourself up. But the truth is, that for most of us, it is hard to stay on point, remain calm and shut things down when they should be shut down. At least is for me. Don't beat yourself up!!! My DH and I are pretty good at talking and planning and getting on the same page. Even still, when the conversation happens, there are some nuances that are not exactly in sync. Like Jisp, we have post discussions that sometimes are heated. But let's face it, parenting and the real world conversations are very difficult and dynamic. It's nearly impossible for mere mortals to do everything right!
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Post by SharonF on Aug 19, 2013 10:05:34 GMT -5
beth--
I'm sorry your family is going through this. It's even harder when you and your husband disagree on the best course of action.
My impression: your son is probably saying whatever he thinks sounds good. "Only drank a couple of times," "never got sick," "doesn't always drink when at parties," "only got that sick one time," "being punished for the mistakes of his brother...".
Beth, even if those claims are true, the real issue is trust. The real issue is not his blood-alcohol level or buying a breathalyzer. It's trust. He wants you to simply believe that he is going to these beach parties/other events and not violating the law or your family's rules. He's ignoring the reality that he's already violated both. And he wants you to ignore that reality, too.
I know what it's like to WANT to believe your kids. To WANT to think they are just being swept along by the tide of peer pressure and wanting to fit in.
Your son has already made wrong choices. When confronted, he is argumentative. He tries to deflect or play down your concerns. Your concerns are valid. Not just about drinking, but you have valid concerns about his lying, sneaking around and showing that he doesn't handle freedom responsibly. The behavior pattern is what you're really concerned about. And, in my experience, you should be concerned.
As others have said, you cannot control what happens at these events. Control what you can control. Communicate firm expectations and non-negotiable consequences. If you regret the breathalyzer stuff, it is within your prerogative as parents to say "We've changed our mind. We were swayed by our emotions. Breathalyzers measure alcohol levels, but what we really want is to measure your maturity. We will do that by monitoring your level of responsible behavior. Here's what we expect. Here's what happens if you are not consistently responsible."
Firm expectations. Non-negotiable consequences. Not fun. But better than some of the alternatives.
{{HUGS}}
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Post by SharonF on Aug 19, 2013 10:16:20 GMT -5
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Post by beth on Aug 19, 2013 12:12:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the support.
I don't think my husband and I are actually on different pages. The problem was that he tried to start negotiating with ds when we had not discussed this at all. I don't know if I am totally opposed to giving some but it was a big mistake to bring up things (breathlizer) that we had not discussed privately. I think that may be a good future rule. Don't bring up options we have not agreed upon. I think that would have saved us a lot of grief.
We fought mostly because I started analyzing and he took that as attacking him and then he started venting and I took some of what he said more literally than I should have.
I agree that it is a trust issue with our son. And he is trying to minimize. And I don't think he has yet taken responsibility for all the bad choices he has made--only the last episode which there was no way for him to deny.
I just spoke to another parent whose son is friends with ours. She said her son isn't drinking yet. She has two older boys so she isn't as naive as I was. But her son just rolls his eyes when his parents talk to him about going to alcohol free events. Right now he isn't interested in going and wants to fish instead. My son fishes with him but apparently isn't content with just that. But I am going to do what I can to encourage the fishing.
She said she drank as a teen but it wasn't like parties with alcohol like today. You did what every self respecting teen did--you sneak around. It is the parents today that I think are a big part of the problem. My son told me that your generation is screwed up. I can't disagree.
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Post by SharonF on Aug 19, 2013 13:44:05 GMT -5
beth--
Yes, there are plenty in our generation who have screwed up. But that shouldn't be an excuse for the next generation to perpetuate or exacerbate the mistakes. As the old saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right.
And if your son is trying to point to "screwed up" adults as justification for his wrong choices, he's missing the point.
You and your dh are reasonable people. You don't lock your kids in a dungeon to protect them from the evils of the world. You also don't enable or encourage under-aged drinking.
My advice is to be "fair but firm." Let his tell his side. But remain the parent. Sometimes, that means saying calmly but decisively: "I hear what you are saying. But the law is still the law. Our rules are still our rules. We don't ask you to like them. But to regain our trust, you will need to follow both the laws and the rules. Or these will be the consequences."
My advice is not just my own. It comes from a professional counselor--who I saw several times when my son got over-involved with alcohol and illegal drugs. It comes from a drug counselor (a different person) who worked with my son and was recommended by ds' attorney. It comes from my friends whose older son lost his driver's license for several years due to multiple DWIs.
In every case, the professionals emphasize making the young adult (even a teenager) responsible for their actions and their choices. No excuses. No deflections. No twisting others' comments in hopes of finding a different meaning. No prolonged debates about what "is" is. Or as my son's counselor said bluntly, "I know what BS is and I don't take BS." And most importantly: appropriate consequences for mistakes.
School resumes soon and maybe the teenaged party atmosphere will die down a bit. I can only hope!
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Post by jisp on Aug 19, 2013 16:10:51 GMT -5
Beth, I agree that some parents are part of the problem. My oldest is 6 years older than her younger brother and so by the time he was in high school she was old enough to reflect and comment on things that happened when she was in HS. She told me things that shocked me, such as how many parents have tons of pot lying around and how many smoke regularly. She talked about how parents will get drunk with their kids and party with their kids. Fortunately this is not all parents. But don't think you can tell who is and who isn't. It isn't always obvious.
Sharon gave good advice. That is the advice I heard from the professionals we worked with when dealing with our kids.
One thing I have learned from my kids who are now past these challenging years is that in the long run (or rather not so long run) they totally appreciate you being candid with them and clear about about what is acceptable and what is not. They appreciate when you set limits, even if they push back and fight you on it. They like when you trust them and let them expand their wings and they like when you let them know when they have gone astray. Don't despair. Some day your son will thank you for what you have done in the past few days.
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