VCI/PRI disparity

[socergem]

Hi All,

   I am new here. Trying to figure out my recent WAIS scores and had read that there are some knowledgeable people here. The psych I saw was less than helpful in explanations or recommendations.

   Background: 27. Good student -good grades, SATs in jr high which I did relatively well on (1160 under the 1600 system), AP classes. I got mostly A's with the occasional B+ in math, which I got some flak for. Did manage a 4 on AP Calc test so I wasn't hopeless at math. Writing was a huge strength. Always very disorganized, and made a lot of careless mistakes (in Calc, would get all the calculus right but add 2+2 incorrectly. Thank God for showing work and partial credit!). I was often criticized for not living up to expectations or working hard enough, especially in math, but always felt I was trying. Never WAIS tested until recently.

    My scores on the WAIS were all at least average - no actual deficits - but there was quite a range. I'm trying to sort out what the disparity means pragmatically. I do have a history of strabismus surgery - mostly successful, vision in both eyes although they don't team, but this hasn't ever been an issue reading wise for me. It's possible my vision plays a role in my scores, but just trying to understand if the low score could mean I have a relative deficit that could have impacted my abilities in school, that I compensated for but that made things more difficult.

My scores were:

VCI: 138
PRI: 100 (subtest scatter was 8-12)
WMI: 117
PSI: 114.

[SharonF]

Hi socergem--

Welcome!

One test doesn't tell us everything. But your WAIS indices provide some clues.

Your WAIS scores indicate you are intelligent and probably were a solid student. You don't say what you're doing now (college, grad school or working) but you are probably very capable in most every setting.

On all standardized tests, 100 is median. Best to think of it as smack-dab in the middle. Half of the population is above median, half is below.

On all standardized tests, 15 points is "one standard deviation." If a score is more than 15 points above or below 100, it's worth noting. As you can see, your working memory is strong. Your processing speed is nearly as as strong. And your verbal IQ is more than two standard deviations above the mean. Exceptionally strong. In contrast, your PRI is "average."

Verbal IQ scores (VCI) are usually the best predictor of how a person will do in school. In addition to your ability to read and write, you probably also have strong sequential skills. You use words well--to learn about the world, to organize and retrieve that information in your brain, to express what you've learned and to make connections to new information.

When you move to a nonverbal realm, such as calculus and maybe physics, you have to work a bit harder. The abstract reasoning used for calculus and physics does not rely heavily on words. So it is not the way your brain prefers to think or organize information.

Because your brain has to work harder at nonverbal concepts, you are more likely to get mentally "tired" along the way. That could explain the silly little mistakes in calculation when solving difficult equations. Or the appearance that you are not trying hard enough.

I'm guessing that your brain is actually are working HARDER when doing calculus. But because your results are a B instead of an A, you or others may think that you were not working hard enough.

I would like to see the subtest scores from each index. That can tell us more than the composite VCI, PRI, etc. I see that your PRI subtests range from 8 to 12. Seeing the individual score with the individual subtest might tell us more.

My next point is from my own personal experience. I have not taken the WAIS. But as a child I was given the Stanford Binet. I have extremely high verbal scores and average nonverbal.

School was easy for me. But I met my match in high school math and science. Honestly, I was not bad in those subjects. But they did not come easily. So for the first time in my life, I had to WORK to get As in those subjects. And without extra credit, I would not have gotten As in high school math and science.

So my reliance on verbal reasoning, which had served me so well for so many years, wasn't as much help in trig and physics.

I am now in my 50s and can say I have never had to use algebra or calculus in the real world. My various careers have always focused around words and the social sciences.

Finally, I'm curious about what prompted you to take the WAIS. Are you having difficulty achieving career or life goals and wonder if that is because of your learning style? Or are you an insatiable learner who wants to understand things better and more completely?

To answer the last statement in your post, I believe your nonverbal reasoning could be seen as a *relative* deficit, at least when compared with the three other types of intelligence measured by the WAIS. Yes, I believe that you compensated using your innate strengths--which is a good thing. But as the indices show, compensating (hard work or flexibility) may not always get the same results as just being naturally good at something.

An analogy: the best NFL quarterbacks work very hard to be good at what they do. But if I did exactly the same workouts they do, I would still not be able to throw a perfect spiral. The world's top violin player must practice. But nearly always, musical prodigies have an innate gift in music that dedicated practice alone does not explain.

Likewise, you worked your tail off and got decent grades in calculus. But abstract math might never come as easily and naturally to you as reading and writing. Abstract math is probably not your innate gift.

[healthy11]

Socergem, welcome to Millermoms forum! SharonF has given you a wonderful explanation already, and I'm not sure if what I say will be as helpful, but if you haven't heard of "2e" or "Twice Exceptional," that's a term that you might want to learn more about. I've listed a great number of resources here: millermom.proboards.com/thread/9972/twice-exceptional-gifted-adhd-resources ~ Many describe "2e" children's needs, but there is still a lot of insightful information.

My young adult son is "2e," although his profile shows a relative weakness in his average WMI scores. He has also has been criticized for not meeting expectations or working hard enough, but he's been diagnosed with ADHD, dyslexia, and dysgraphia in addition to being highly gifted. Several teachers and tutors over the years have described him as a "conundrum," because it's hard to figure out when he couldn't do things, versus wouldn't do things. Personally, I believe his ADHD causes more difficulties than his dyslexia or dysgraphia, but it doesn't look like you're dealing with any of the issues he has.

As SharonF said, seeing the subtest scores from your WAIS, along with scores of any other testing that may have been done, could help us to better decipher your situation. We'd like to hear more about how you'd describe yourself, and what prompted you to get an evaluation now, before jumping to any conclusions. Some people make generalizations that a person who has a large discrepancy between high VCI and lower PRI must have NVLD (Non-verbal learning disorder) but that's not always the case. Here's a recent post from someone whose child has a similar VCI/PRI spread to yours: millermom.proboards.com/thread/13521/new-appreciate-comments-test-results

[michellea]

socergem -
Welcome!

I would echo what SharonF says - Your verbal reasoning is in the superior range and an overwhelming strength. I am not surprise that you were a strong student - especially in the humanities. Your non verbal reasoning (ability to think in pictures) is average. Solid, but average. In comparison to your very strong verbal skills, it is a relative weakness. Math relies heavily on non verbal reasoning. Hence, more of a struggle for you compared to other subjects. Most likely, you were able to compensate in certain ways by relying on your verbal strengths - perhaps by remembering procedures and talking out steps.

You also mention that sometimes you find it hard to organize yourself for writing and have trouble with careless errors. You could possibly have certain weaknesses in the "executive functioning" realm. These are skills that help you "do the work". IE plan, organize, problem solve, concentrate, stay on task, self monitor etc. You may have one or two weaknesses in the executive functioning realm that impact your efficiency and precision. The WAIS does not measure these skills per se - but the evaluator may or may not have observed how you approached certain tasks and may have a "hunch" about your executive functioning. For instance, when my daughter was tested, she often missed minor details causing her to respond incorrectly to earlier test questions, but had the skill to continue on to the more difficult test items. In real life, she often misses parts of a multi-part question and takes forever to finish her work. These skills are separate from her IQ - and weaknesses in these areas can often create barriers for her, even though she is "smart enough" to excel. Sometimes, weaknesses in these areas are related to ADHD - but not always, my daughter does not have ADHD.

My hunch is that I am stronger in the verbal realm than in the non verbal. For instance, while I like to look at a map to get an overview of where I am going, I rely on the written instructions on map quest to guide me. When my son was small, I could not help him with Legos - I just could not put the things together. In school, I had to work harder at math than other subjects, but with time and effort, did ok. Non verbal reasoning is not really a "vision" issue. It is more about your ability to picture things in your head.

What does it mean pragmatically? Well, for me, it has meant finding careers that work with my strengths. While both my careers in business and now as a special education advocate require math skills - most of what I do relies heavily on my oral expression and people skills. I gravitated to jobs that play on my strengths. You may find that you will do the same.

BTW - NVLD non verbal learning disorder is a diagnosis that often includes a wide disparity between verbal and non verbal reasoning. Usually the students struggle mightily with math, reading comprehension and social skills. You do not mention that these areas were difficult for you. For that reason, I highly doubt you have NVLD. Instead, you are a person with exceptional verbal skills, high average working memory and processing skills, and solidly average non verbal skills.

[SharonF]

Socergem--

with the occasional B+ in math, which I got some flak for

I'm curious who was critical of your occasional B+'s in math, if you're willing to share.

Sometimes parents set unreasonable expectations. They understandably want their kids to excel. But few kids get perfect scores on the SAT--with equally high verbal and math scores. Very few people have superior intelligence in all realms. Parents sometimes forget that their kids are human--with innate strengths and weaknesses that cannot always be overcome by hard work. Or parents sometimes don't realize that angled intelligence is actually a better attribute than well-rounded intelligence.

Sometimes teachers are the problem. They think that giving students flak will motivate them to get a higher grade. Usually that doesn't work. Some teachers are very aware of different types of intelligence and celebrate those differences. Some teachers are woefully ignorant.

Sometimes successful students are the ones with unrealistic expectations. If you've always been a straight-A student, that first B (or lower) can be very painful. I know from experience!

I didn't understand or appreciate various types of intelligence until both of my kids started failing classes in middle school. I had thought smart kids all got As and only lazy, dumb kids got Fs. Boy, was I wrong!

There are many different types of intelligence. All types are needed for society to thrive. But I only learned that after I saw that my kids' innate types of intelligence were not the types prized by most classroom teachers. I am humbler and wiser now.

[bros]

I'm 23. Your scores are similar to mine on the WAIS, particularly in the verbal domain.

VCI - 138
Perceptual Organizational Index - 105
WMI - 99
PSY - 93

[socergem]

Wow everyone, thanks for the thoughts! I will have to check out the 2e

Oh, I wasn't clear - I was writing quickly. I was disorganized and made careless mistakes globally, not specifically in writing. I write well, although my preferred writing style is to edit while I write and I don't frequently write a draft, and then completely revamp to another draft, etc. I have difficulty formally editing my own papers (although not others').

It was largely my mother giving me grief over my grades. She would tolerate a B+ in math, but in nothing else, and anything under a B+ would have been a serious problem. And granted - sometimes I was bored and didn't pay attention. In elementary school I spent a fair amount of time reading under my desk because I had a good grasp of the material until they started pulling some of us out for enriched math. But my high school was private, college prep, and challenging. I quite honestly don't remember my SAT scores - 680 math/750 verbal maybe? Something like that. I got an 800 on the SAT writing.

As far as why I got the testing: I got a concussion last year. They asked me to get neuropsych testing because I initially was recovering slowly, but by the time I found a doctor, waited for an appointment, couldn't end up with that psych, found another, and got the testing done, it's been quite a while. i toyed with just cancelling it because I am healed from the concussion, but then realized I have contemplated getting it done for a long time to get a sense of how to manage what I still struggle with more effectively. College as well as a therapist I saw both encouraged it; I just never particularly wanted to take the time and effort to try to get an authorization for testing and assumed it wouldn't be covered by insurance. The psych did not feel the concussion played any role in my testing and believes that it is an accurate measurement of my abilities, or I would have mentioned it before.

I have a BA in psych and an MSW. In college I struggled with taking more than 3 classes at a time, and managed much better with 3, which due to AP credit I was able to do for about 4 semesters. I did work part time in college as well as did some research as a TA - not surprisingly, I prefer quantitative to qualitative research. I work in counseling now, and I feel strong in the counseling and documenting/assessing, but weak in ability to manage what is due when and when appointments are and such. It is a source of significant stress and loss of productivity in my day to day work and spills over into managing finances. Great at making a budget, awful at tracking what I spend. And if I have too many balls in the air (i.e. large caseload, multiple committees and side projects) I start to feel very mentally disorganized and overwhelmed. I am also the person who will get to the doctors' office, start filling out the form haphazardly depending on what section looks easiest, and then realize that I filled out my personal history in the section that was supposed to be family history - following directions is not a strong suit.

My specific scores on the WAIS were:

VCI 138
Similarities: 15
Vocabulary: 18
Information: 16

PRI 100
Block Design 10
Matrix Reasoning 12
Visual Puzzles 8

WMI 117
Digit Span 12
Arithmetic 14

PSI 114
Symbol Search 11
Coding 14

He also did the WMS-IV. On Verbal Memory, I got a 12 on Logical Memory 1 and 14 on Logical Memory II. On Visual memory I got a 9 on Designs I, 6 on Designs II, and 9 on Symbol Span.

He did the California Verbal Learning Test. I got in the average range on all of the recalls, varying between .5 and 1, except for the very first trial when I got a -1.

He did the Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure. I got average on the copy (36) and average on both recalls (27, t-score of 56, average 40-60).

And the Wisconsin card sorting test. I got 4 categories...would have gotten 5, but I got distracted because quite honestly it was boring so I put a card on the wrong pile from not paying attention.

He also tested executive function. He did the D-KEFS - color-word interference tests and verbal fluency. Ont he interference test, for color naming, word reading, and inhibition switching I got 12 and for inhibition I got 13. On verbal fluency I got a 14 for letter fluency, a 19 for category fluency, and a 17 for category switching.

His summary was my executive functioning was intact (tell that to my organization and planning problems!) and my memory was inconsistent, for which he had not a lot of explanation. That the WAIS was an accurate assessment of my abilities. And....not much else.

[bros]

Did he do any brain sensitive measures like the Halstead-Reitan?

[socergem]

No, but my concussion PT also felt the concussion was healed. My MRI was very normal - not that that says much for concussions, but there was no organic brain damage. My concussive sx's have all dissipated.

I truly do feel that a.) my life was pretty dysfunctional beforehand and b.) I am doing pretty well on the concussion thing.

[bros]

Good, good. I was wondering why they didn't do a Halstead-Reitan or similar test when there were post-concussive issues suspected. That explains it.

Were any brain sensitive measures done? Like testing integrative memory?

[empeg1]

Bros, I am so glad that I saw this post. I do not want to hijack it. But, can you tell me more about neuropsych tests that are more brain sensitive. I know the Halstead-Reitan. What adult test would look at integrative memory? I am asking because my oldest dd is going for neuropsychological assessment in order to obtain a formal diagnosis for FASD. She does indeed show difficulties similar to what one would see with TBI.

As for the poster of this thread, we all have strengths and weaknesses. And, grades are not the always the most accurate assessment of learning or achievement. it is unfortunate that you had pressure put on you regarding grades.

[bros]

Jul 29, 2013 23:06:00 GMT -5 empeg1 said:

Bros, I am so glad that I saw this post. I do not want to hijack it. But, can you tell me more about neuropsych tests that are more brain sensitive. I know the Halstead-Reitan. What adult test would look at integrative memory? I am asking because my oldest dd is going for neuropsychological assessment in order to obtain a formal diagnosis for FASD. She does indeed show difficulties similar to what one would see with TBI.

As for the poster of this thread, we all have strengths and weaknesses. And, grades are not the always the most accurate assessment of learning or achievement. it is unfortunate that you had pressure put on you regarding grades.

One second, let me see what tests I was given.

Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale III, Wide Range Achievement Test 4, Halstead Reitan Neuropsychological Battery, Weschler Memory Scale III, Logical Memory I and II, Visual Reproduction I and II (WMS III) and the Victoria Symptom Validity Test (VSVT).

The entirety of the Halsted-Reitan was administered and that is how deficits in the areas of rapid attention concentration, complex integrative memory, and visual memory were determined. The Personality Assessment Inventory was also administered.

[empeg1]

Wow, the Halstead-Reitan takes a long time to administer the whole test- about 5 hours. My DD has been evaluated for IQ several times, with the WISC and the WAIS. Ditto for achievement. What is the Victoria Symptom Validity Test? She also has had personality testing done, twice. I am not sure what battery the neuropsychologist will use. She is a FASD expert. Hence, I am driving 400 miles for this evaluation. I do know that areas which need to be addressed include memory, sensory processing, fine motor skills, visual perception, academics, social skills, intelligence, language, attention, and adaptive behavior. A research psychologist in Denver will do the adaptive functioning assessment. So far, I have been told that the testing will take about 5 hours. But, dd gets overwhelmed and then too tires more easily.
What do you know about the Luria Nebraska Battery?

[bros]

Jul 30, 2013 0:18:45 GMT -5 empeg1 said:

Wow, the Halstead-Reitan takes a long time to administer the whole test- about 5 hours. My DD has been evaluated for IQ several times, with the WISC and the WAIS. Ditto for achievement. What is the Victoria Symptom Validity Test? She also has had personality testing done, twice. I am not sure what battery the neuropsychologist will use. She is a FASD expert. Hence, I am driving 400 miles for this evaluation. I do know that areas which need to be addressed include memory, sensory processing, fine motor skills, visual perception, academics, social skills, intelligence, language, attention, and adaptive behavior. A research psychologist in Denver will do the adaptive functioning assessment. So far, I have been told that the testing will take about 5 hours. But, dd gets overwhelmed and then too tires more easily.
What do you know about the Luria Nebraska Battery?

I guess I was given a slightly abbreviated or condensed version of the Halstead-Reitan, then. It lasted about 3 hours for me (the evaluation lasted around 6.5 hours, WAIS/WRAT took like 2 hours)

The Victoria Symptom Validity test is a test that can gauge if a patient is exaggerating or feigning a cognitive impairment. www4.parinc.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=VSVT

I don't know anything about the Luria. I've only had one neuropsych eval (My mom doesn't want to take a day or two off of work for me to have one as she sees no reason to get an updated one)

[SharonF]

socergem--

Thanks for the additional info.

First a big disclaimer: I am not a psych. I am just a mom who is fascinated by different ways that brains function. In true geek fashion, I have spent many hours reading and researching. But I'm a layman with no qualifications.

As I read about your difficulties with attention, organization and juggling lots of balls...my first thought was female ADHD-inattentive type. ADHD is far more complicated than the stereotypes would suggest. Bright people with ADHD are masters at covering and compensating. And there is substantial research that females with ADHD often present very different symptoms than males with ADHD. Yet the DSM continues to use male-dominated criteria.

My next thought was female Asperger's. Again, the DSM criteria for Asperger's often don't fit most females. In fact, original researchers thought Asperger's was only found in males. Because women present such different or less-prominent symptoms, females with Asperger's are overlooked.

For both genders who have Asperger's, one common strength is ability with words. But females with Asperger's often have normal social skills and ability to read body language. They don't come close to matching the male-dominated DSM criteria. But women with Asperger's often feel deep down that they are somehow different, they just can't explain how or why.

Keep in mind that Asperger's, like anything on the Autism Spectrum, is a spectrum disorder. There is an extremely wide variety of traits that can be part of the Spectrum. Few people have all or even most of those traits. And the traits can be very mild or quite pronounced. ADHD or ADHD-like symptoms are often found in people on the Spectrum.

This blog has a very, very long list of traits that are sometimes found in females with Asperger's. No one person would have all of these traits. I think some might apply to you. taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/moving-towards-a-female-profile-the-unique-characteristics-abilities-and-talents-of-asperwomen-adult-women-with-asperger-syndrome/

AGAIN--please know that I am not trying to diagnose you! I'm just sharing information that you might find helpful as you seek answers.

[healthy11]

Sharon, as another mom and not a professional, I'm in no position to diagnose anyone, either. While I wondered about ADHD-inattentive, Asperger's never crossed my mind because Socergem seems very self-aware and insightful, and as a MSW, she shows a strong desire to assist others. Virtually all Asperger's individuals whom I've ever met are far more self-centered, in the sense of centering conversations around their favorite things/topics. They are often unaware of how their actions are perceived by people around them, and they generally have a difficult time patiently waiting/listening to others, so I can't imagine someone with Aspergers becoming a social worker. I know there are always exceptions, but it still seems unlikely to me. Instead, I'd recommend that Socergem look through the info on Girls/Women with ADHD: millermom.proboards.com/thread/2748/girls-adhd

[socergem]

SharonF,

I had never seen that profile before! That's pretty interesting. I can see how some, or a lot, of what I have described fits that profile. The profile seems rather broad and crosses many different clinical boundaries.

I'll have to think on that. The biggest thing that makes me hesitate to endorse that is I don't tend to have the rigidity that I have seen in a lot of people with Aspergers. I function better in a routine, but I'm not married to it. I have interests, but none that are obsessive, and I am able to converse with others/be interested in their interests. I don't do the rocking or other self soothing techniques, and I tend to come across as older, not younger (unless I have dyed hair, in which case my age gets pegged all over the place). I have a variety of friends and am good at picking up subtle social cues or issues. My behavior is socially appropriate.

It is very interesting that she mentions females with Aspergers being empathic, as that is the direct opposite of what I think of and see in males with Aspergers. And interesting that she describes both being passive and being a leader.

I'll have to do some more reading on that as well as the ADHD links. Thanks!

[eoffg]

Hi Socergem,

I was most interested to read your posts, as for about 3 years I've been doing study and research into the effects of Strabismus on 'cognitive thinking'.
Where we have 3 distinct cognitive thinking processes; auditory, visual and spatial.
Where the PRI test, is a test of combined visual/ spatial cognitive thinking.

While we are born with auditory, visual, spatial senses.  The ability to use this sensory information for cognitive thinking?
Involves a learning acquisition process, unique to each sense.
Along with learning how to integrate them.
But a crucial factor, is that the potential for development of each of them for cognitive thinking?
Is shaped by the quality of sensory information being recieved.
So that what needs to be considered, is how Strabismus effects the development of Visual cognitive thinking?
With vision from one eye being 'suppressed'.
Though a notable factor about vision, is that vision from each eye is processed in their own side of brain's visual cortex.
So that the suppression of vision from one eye, is actually a suppression of attention to one side of the visual cortex.

While that side is suppressed, the corollary, is that with Visual Recall, their is nothing to recall from that side?
Which also carries over to mental imaging/ visualization.
While we have these terms 3D and 2D.
With suppression of one side, what it results in, is 1D.

When both eyes and sides of the visual cortex are used, this enables the visual location of 2 opposing points.  2D.
Though what needs to considered, is the effect of not having an 'opposing visual point' as reference?
Can a visual mental image be viewed from left to right, without one side?

But another crucial factor, is that Vision and Spatial processing work in combination.
Where just as vision is processed in each side of the brain.  Space on our left and right, is processed in our Parietal Lobes on each side of the brain.
So that the Visual Cortex and Parietal Lobe on each side, form a visual-spatial image for their own side.
Then a region in centre of the brain, merges the visual-spatial images from both sides.

But you might consider the situation where as the Parietal Lobe on one side, goes to its side of the Visual Cortex.
That vision is suppressed on that side, so that their is no image in its side of the Visual Cortex?
So that it has to use the Visual Cortex on the other side, and share its use?
Which creates complications?  Where for example, Spatial processing on our right side, is mapped onto our left Visual image?

The effect of this on Spatial processing, has considerable implications?
Where Spatial processing makes great use of having opposing sides.
As it uses the right Parietal Lobe to concieve of a beginning point, with the left Parietal Lobe used to concieve of an end point.
But when one Parietal Lobe has to use its opposing Visual Cortex?
Their is no opposing Visual point, to use as a reference?

Though I first discussed this with the board of COVD about 3 years ago, who recognized that I had a valid hypothesis.
So for the past 3 years I've been defining the neuro-science behind this, and also doing qualitative studies and trials, to develop a clearer understanding of it?
Where the impact of Vision difficulties on the development of Visual cognitive processing, needs to gain recognition.

[SharonF]

healthy--

I agree that most **diagnosed** Aspies fit certain, expected criteria. But many women with Asperger's are not diagnosed--because they don't fit our pre-disposed notions.

I definitely understand where you are coming from. Until a few months (weeks?) ago, I thought the same thing. But I inadvertently stumbled upon some information that got me to dig more deeply. And even more deeply. Slowly, my perception of Asperger's, especially females with Asperger's, has moved beyond what I thought I knew. But I'm still learning.

In the link I included in my post, some traits that can be found in females with Asperger's include:

"May have been told she cares to much, does too much for others and/or is too sensitive"
"Often too sensitive and possesses a lot of empathy"
"Highly sensitive to issues affecting earth, animals, people, advocacy, justice, human rights and the 'underdog'"
"Has the ability to feel other people emotions"
"Highly intuitive"
"Is an 'empath'"

Definitely does not match the Asperger's stereotype. Or what's in the DSM. But that's my point.

The link I provided says that females with Asperger's tend to have too much "affective empathy." After defining it, the article says this type of empathy is "an advantage for individuals in a wide range of careers from nursing to teaching to social work, psychology and other caring professions." So it seems social workers with female Asperger's may be quite common.

Other information in the article says Aspie women are often bright but some mysteriously struggle with a full courseload in college. Or to meet deadlines at work.

Socergem mentioned that she needed a lighter courseload than her college classmates. The article says:
"Many have taken longer to achieve their education, as compared to their peers....This is usually due to be overloaded and overwhelmed."

She mentioned that she likes her job as a counselor but "has trouble managing what is due when" and has trouble tracking her spending and matching it to her budget.

One trait mentioned in the article:
"May have difficulty filling out forms, doing paperwork (completing taxes), budgeting money"

Tania Marshall, who wrote the article I linked to, is not the only expert providing new insight into female Asperger's. The growing professional evidence indicates that an entire population has largely been ignored because their traits don't fit the entrenched stereotype. Much like adult women with ADHD-inattentive don't act like hyperactive little boys.

I shared the link because it **might** be helpful. It may not apply to Socergem. But it's better to consider the newer information about females with Asperger's and rule it out, rather than use gender-biased and outdated criteria (my opinion) to make that determination.

At the very least, that list of traits sometimes found in females with Asperger's provides everyone on this message board with a very different framework for something we THOUGHT we understood. It may help others to understand Asperger's in a new light.

[SharonF]

socergem--

A postscript to what I wrote to healthy. I have no idea if you match very few, some or most of the traits on the list I linked to. Or if it resonated with you in any way.

As I read about you feeling overwhelmed, your difficulty with keeping track of clients' appointments and your struggle to match your spending to your carefully-crafted budget, my first thought was ADHD.

But when I looked at your descrption in context with your IQ scores, what you said you are good at and what was really bothering you, that's when I wondered about female Asperger's.

You're right: many traits of female Asperger's seem direct contradictions of what we see in males with Asperger's. Most research I've read says rocking, hand flapping and tics are far less common in women with Asperger's. The notions of empathy, eye contact, ability to have meaningful conversations, read body language, and perceive subtle cues and sarcasm are very, very, very different in women with Asperger's. Maybe that's why the establishment isn't quick to embrace a new definition. The stereotypic traits of ASD are easier to observe and make diagnosis easier. If we remove the criteria that typically only apply to males, what criteria would be left that apply equally to both genders? I'm not sure.

In your field of study and in your line of work, you have learned that you can't make accurate assumptions about someone's situation just by matching their concerns to a checklist. You can't just add up how many of their traits match a list and call it a diagnosis. You also need to know how intense each trait is. How each trait affects them in different situations.

The same is true when figuring out why a person is struggling with expected tasks, from learning in school to keeping from being overwhelmed at work. (Sorry, I'm headed into qualitative reasoning rather than quantitative, but I think it's true.)

If you were to receive a diagnosis of ADHD-inattentive for your executive function difficulties, it wouldn't automatically change anything. But you would have an explanation for why some seemingly simple things are so frustratingly hard for you. Your cognitive processing is being short-circuited.

If you were to be diagnosed with female Asperger's **or anything else** that explains your pattern of strengths and difficulties, it would not change things. But it might explain them.

Sometimes, just having a valid explanation is enough for us to accept ourselves as we are. Warts and all.

[dhfl143]

Just thought that this video might be of value to this discussion regarding Aspergers and Non-verbal LD:

[empeg1]

Errgh, I am reminded of a criticism leveled at the DSM-V, about anyone in the population meeting criteria for a mental health diagnoses...... Why is having increased sensitivity and empathy disordered?

We all have strengths and weaknesses and need to learn how to accommodate for both. Me? I have little sense of myself in space. I knock into furniture, collide with doors and corners of walls. My motor planning is off. You do not want to know what it was like for me to learn how to ride a bike (I was known to every ER in the area). Then comes spatial reasoning. No way can I do puzzles. Sailing was a joke. Tying knots, CND, no matter how many times I was shown how to do so, it did not translate to how I was to move my own hands. Ditto, for taking a sighting and then turning for 90 degrees. Once the boat started to turn, I had no idea where we started and where I was going. By mutual agreement, my job ended up that I was the designated person to sit and enjoy the ride. I did. Never ever ask me to be navigator in a car, either. I wear a ring on my left hand to tell me which is my left side. And, I manage life. I am a verbal learner. I used to carefully write down driving directions. I now worship GPS. I am aware not to carry food and drink in tight quarters. I manage.

I chose a career where I do not have to rely on spatial skills. I am a speech-language pathologist, lol, perfect for someone who learns by listening and loves to talk (and write).

You can teach yourself organization skills. I have had to do this recently. I am under stress and my organizational skills have gone downhill. Then too, being post menopausal is not helping either. I use lists, which I check off as items are completed. Try checking out the mirror in my bathroom and the front door in the morning. Ditto, for my work day. I also use routine, which also helps. I have a schedule for the day. I also have come up with an iron clad routine for organizing and storing paperwork. I have had to develop these routines, which make actions more automatic and then require less organizational skills. At home, I do the same thing.

I think from your description that you grew up under some stress and a need for perfection, at least in academic demands from your mother? The above can help to kindle your nervous system to stress and increased overwhelm. Again, learn to become mindful of early signs of overwhelm and develop strategies for calm down. Then building the above into the routine of your day. Do, you have set times to do paperwork and a routine for doing so?

As for filling out forms putting information into the wrong spaces. I have always done this! I slow myself down and try to be more mindful. I read the forms first, note what goes where. And, then I take one section at a time, remind myself verbally what I am to write, and then do it. Most of the time, this works. When it doesn't, I laugh. The post office worker and I laughed today. I was mailing a large envelope of materials. Guess where I put the stamps? Yep, on the bottom of the envelope. Oh well, I moved them.

[michellea]

Weighing in as a mom and observer of people. Each of us have strengths and weaknesses. Some are organized, some are not. Some are good at history, some at math, some art some all, some none.

It sounds like you have done very well with your life so far. You did very well academically in HS - and though math was a bit more difficult, it seems by your SAT's and grades, you did better than most. You have a masters degree (that I am sure included at least one or two core math courses). I'm sorry that it was not enough to please your mom, but if you worked hard, did your work, I'd give you a high five!

Now, you have found a career that plays to your strengths. (doing something I wish I were doing!!).

So - Maybe there isn't a problem. Just the typical range of strengths and weaknesses. I am all for helping people that struggle, and often putting a label on their struggles is the first step to helping them. But, I am wondering if your struggles are such that they require a label and interventions? Or maybe just strategies that you can adopt to help your life run more smoothly and to feel better about things.

Just a thought!!

empeg - you'll laugh. I was just at the post office filling out a priority envelope and I put the address upside down, on the wrong side! We had a laugh! And I am NEVER the Navigator and I LOVE my GPS. I don't think I have a disorder - just some weaknesses that I am happy to divulge!!

[bros]

I have horrible spatial reasoning and spatial sense, but I am amazing at remembering how to get places