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Post by ceratops on Jul 9, 2013 6:33:02 GMT -5
I've been browsing around the forum here, and it's reminded me of one other detail about DS that I'd like to ask about. People here have been so knowledgeable and helpful -- I wonder if anyone has a comment on the following.
A couple of months ago, while working on a homework assignment, DS and I were looking up information in an encyclopedia (one of those old-fashioned multi-volume hardcover deals that take up a couple of feet of shelf space). DS repeatedly looked at the entry he needed, but always put the book back down less than a minute later, and asked me to read it instead. I asked him what was going on, and he said the book “makes my eyes hurt.” When I asked if there was anything else he could tell me about the experience, he said that “it makes my eyes jump around,” and he rapidly jiggled/bounced his finger around in the paragraph we were looking at, to describe what he meant. The next day he said the same thing again when looking at this book -- it made his eyes hurt.
The encyclopedia is different from most of the other books he deals with -- finer print for one thing. Probably shinier paper. Also, the language in this particular article was fairly complex. However, his reaction struck me as odd. The school evaluation (the assorted tests I've been asking you guys about) had just started at this time, and I mentioned DS's problems with the encyclopedia to the case manager, in case it was suggestive of some other type of difficulty they should be aware of. She was quite dismissive, and said she had trouble reading fine print herself (I had given her a copy of a page from the book, so she could see the specifics), and that she had also showed the page to several of her students, who all agreed that it was hard to read. That was the end of that. It seemed unlikely to me that a commercially printed encyclopedia is actually unreadable for a large portion of the population, but I couldn't seem to get the point across.
So, might this be indicative of something else I should be alert to with DS? Or is it no big deal?
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Post by ceratops on Jul 9, 2013 6:36:42 GMT -5
I have to admit I was in the midst of "homework wars" with my oldest when she was in school. And, I regret doing this. Ask for a set of textbooks for home. Make sure your ds has a homework folder for all assignments and a staff person to check for assignments. Make a homework station with all supplies needed. Set a homework time. And, then step back. If your ds asks for help, great, help him. If he wants to watch TV, etc during homework time, no. But, fight with him about getting his homework done? No to that as well. Your ds is not in HS yet. Grades do not count yet. Let the school deal with the homework issue if the work is not done. Your relationship with your son is more important than homework! Thank you. We have now had several years of escalating 'homework wars' as you call them, and something has to change.
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Post by michellea on Jul 9, 2013 6:54:05 GMT -5
ceratops - empeg is right. MS doesn't count, and you want to be sure that the district understands what your son is capable of independently (ie homework). I'm all for helping to make sure his bag is packed, he has a good routine established, helping to type if he asks. But, you have already passed MS and now is the time for him to do it. If he needs more help, the school should step in and help - either by providing accommodations, instruction on skills and strategies, modifying HW and providing tools. IF you feel you should supplement his public school education, a tutor might be a good choice. This way you get to be mom, not teacher. But be careful about how supported work will be viewed at the school. More than once, I've been at a meeting where teachers claim that the child is well organized, and making good grades. All because of the extra help at home. It's a balancing act! You want your child to progress and do well, but you want the school to understand what he is capable of on his own. And yes, shiny, cluttered paper can be a problem. Your son could have some visual processing issues in one or more area. My son has. www.ncld.org/types-learning-disabilities/adhd-related-issues/visual-processing-disorders/visual-processing-disorders When he was younger he received OT and I took him to Vision Therapy. He seems better now, I think as a result of overall maturation and development. He does like reading on his Kindle - he can control the size of the font and the Matte screen works well. There have also been studies that some people with reading disabilities respond better to certain types of print. opendyslexic.org/My son finds it helpful to use a place marker when reading - although he doesn't always like to use one...... He also can request re-formatted worksheets/tests. Again, the clutter makes it more difficult for him to read and when the teacher adds white space he has an easier time.
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Post by SharonF on Jul 9, 2013 7:18:47 GMT -5
In a single word, YES!
Similar to how he is sensitive to noise and competing sounds, it is likely your son has visual processing problems. Seems that these types of sensory integration issues often come together. A vision test may show that he has 20/20 vision or better. The problem is what his brain does with the information that comes in from his eyes. It's likely that his brain is having trouble processing the words that his eyes see.
Small print or high-contrast (black ink on very white or shiny paper) seem to make this worse.
For my dd, the words "moved" on the page. The sensation of the words moving or wiggling on the page got worse the longer she read (concentrated.) Very small print "moved" far more than large print.
One common approach is to use colored overlays. They are tinted plastic sheets that you put over the page to reduce the contrast. The person tries various colors of overlays (yellow, gray, blue, green...) to see what works best. But we did not find they colored overlays really helped much. And in middle school, my dd was very embarrassed to use them.
My dd did get some help from an intervention called Vision Therapy. She did this for a year in middle school at our expense. But vision therapy is seen as quackery or hocus-pocus by many. Even the developmental optometrist who oversaw my dd's VT seemed a bit slimey. He claimed VT would "cure" ADHD. We didn't believe that claim. But VT, along with many other interventions, did provide some help for my dd. Google Vision Therapy and see what you think.
To this day, my kids (both in their 20s) are quick to say that anything from a birthday card to a hand-written note has "too many words." White space is essential. But it can't be too bright white.
Words no longer "wiggle" or "fall off the page" for my dd unless she has been doing homework for many hours and her brain is just worn out.
But remember, my dd has a nearly photographic memory. Her brain relies very, very heavily on visual images for everything. At the same time, her brain can easily become overwhelmed by alphabetic or numeric symbols. It's almost like there's a disconnect between the way her brain makes sense of words on the page and the way her brain processes the visual images of everything else (houses, cars, movies...). My dd can spot the tiniest little things (a mosquito on the wall of the kitchen, a tiny smidge of Spanish moss growing on a dead tree branch yards from the house, a new collar on the neighbor's dog....) But reading for very long gives her headaches and can make her feel like she is swimming in the words.
In my experience, schools understood little about visual processing. Most schools can scrounge up some colored overlays, but don't really understand how to measure whether those overlays are effective are not. Most of all, schools don't understand what all might be involved when a kid says the words "move" on the page. Which means they don't understand how visual processing problems can make reading and concentrating very exhausting and frustrating.
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Post by pandora on Jul 9, 2013 8:38:37 GMT -5
I'm with Empeg on homework. I spent too much time "supporting" my dd, or so I thought. It created dependency, not to mention plenty of tears and anger. As the curriculum gets more complex, it will be more difficult for you to help your son, and believe me, you do not want to spend hours every night for the next 7 years doing homework with him. (And will you have time to "help" all your kids with their homework?)
I suggest you work out some kind of plan for what kind of help and how much time you can give before Ds's homework turns into your homework. Most days your son shouldn't be spending much more than an hour on homework, and if he really cannot do the work independently, then it's time to stop (no blame, no shame) because (a) he won't learn anything when he's escalating into a meltdown and (b) he needs to adhere to sleep hygiene plan, which means he'll need to recover from homework stress, do something relaxing/meaningful, and get to bed at a reasonable time.
Most days your son shouldn't be spending much more than an hour on homework, I think it would be good for him to learn than when he screams and yells and rips his paper, he can take a 2 minute exercise break (such jumping jacks or push-ups without leaving the room and getting distracted), then try again. If he's still stuck (more often than not), he can politely ask for help. I don't know what is developmentally appropriate, but it strikes me that it would be useful for him, when he's feeling confused or stuck, to articulate what he does understand and then what he doesn't understand, because that's what he will need to be able to do to seek help in life, for both school and work. Asking him to tell what he does understand may help him begin to see the light on his own, but even if not, it will help you figure out if you can help. If you can't, then it's time to quit and write a note to the teacher telling the problem and how much time was spent. Overall, I think you should be keeping a daily log of how much time is spent on homework, and make note of any assignments that cause tears or meltdowns, or that could not be completed. This will be valuable input at IEP meetings.
Also, given the organization problems, I'd say homework does not end with school assignments. Once those are done, there should be the "filing" of papers: assignments or signed permission slips/notices to be turned in, homework handouts that need to be saved, anything that goes into his binder — you should inspect all this! Also, make sure books and tools go into the backpack, and put the backpack by the door. If Ds is taking his own computer or other technology to school, get it in the backpack. If he needs money for the next day, get it in the backpack. Still not done: lay out clothes/shoes for the next day. Make lunch for the next day (can it go in the backpack now or does it need to go into the fridge?). If he has an after school activity that requires special clothing, equipment, etc., get it in the backpack now. Getting all this "work" out of the way will be a nuisance, but will reduce stress the rest of the evening, help with sleep, and hopefully make mornings smoother.
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Post by bros on Jul 9, 2013 11:40:16 GMT -5
Something I learned while browsing the web bored - a grey background works excellently for dyslexics.
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Post by ceratops on Jul 10, 2013 9:49:44 GMT -5
In a single word, YES! Similar to how he is sensitive to noise and competing sounds, it is likely your son has visual processing problems. ... In my experience, schools understood little about visual processing. Most schools can scrounge up some colored overlays, but don't really understand how to measure whether those overlays are effective are not. Most of all, schools don't understand what all might be involved when a kid says the words "move" on the page. Which means they don't understand how visual processing problems can make reading and concentrating very exhausting and frustrating. Thank you for on-point response. And thank you also to michellea for the comments and links you gave in your post. Sigh -- another likely complexity to add to the issues DS must learn to deal with... For those who have more experience dealing with the public schools, what exactly (and I mean the question seriously) is their expertise in this process? What are they actually good at, typically? I had thought that it was my job to ask for help for DS, and to alert the professionals to details of his behavior and experience that might be problematic or unusual. Then, I imagined, they would use that information (and information from DS's teachers, of course) to target their testing and nail down his specific difficulties. In fact, even though the people from the school have been quite cooperative, concerned, and helpful, they haven't acted much like experts about learning disabilities. Several details I mentioned (this fine-print-on-white-paper problem is only one example) were simply dismissed, rather than being seen as possible clues to what is going on with DS. Also, judging from many of the posts earlier in this thread, the testing that was done was not very comprehensive or targeted. I'm probably just naive about this process, but it hasn't been what I expected, so far. For future reference (if I ask for further testing at some point next year, perhaps), are there specific tests that look more closely at these visual processing issues?
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Post by momfromma on Jul 10, 2013 10:28:30 GMT -5
I tend you agree. My son is now a sophomore in college, and, in all his years in public school, we have seen few people who seemed to be experts. The most professional people we have had were SLPs (with one exception in the dark years of lower middle school). Not only did they help my son tremendously, but they advocated for him with teachers. The result is that, while he still has some language based issues, he is very far from what he was in 3rd grade. The OT, however, was a different question. She was reasonably good for fine motricity (though they stopped services as soon as ds was able to use scissors), however, they were absolutely clueless with visual processing, something for which my son had, and still has huge issues. Even though evaluation after evaluation were showing that there were problems AND my son was complaining with difficulties to read similar to your son, they had few insights to offer (aside from not having overloaded worksheet --- Which in passing is not something useful in an IEP as teachers never think their worksheet is overloaded, or that a kid does not have the space to write the answer). As for resource teachers, the adequacy to your son will depend of whether the diagnostic is correct and whether they have a teacher trained to these issues. The 4 years of HS were very interesting in this regard. My very perfectionist, very organized, but not very flexible kid was paired with a teacher who was supposed to help organize himself and work on his study habits. My son liked him, but he was definitively not what was needed for him. If anything, he reinforced his rigidity by imposing rigorous methods which had to be followed whatever happened. Another big issue we have had in HS and he has met in college as well was that, though he has an accommodation for using a computer, some teachers do not get that it is not just for their comfort reading, but because it takes a huge energy for ds to write and this energy would be better used thinking, so they ask him to write a draft by hand first (Grrr!). So, the answer is just that you have to deal with what is available, just like everywhere else. Here is the test that was given to my son for visual skills www.academictherapy.com/detailATP.tpl?eqskudatarq=8409-5. Another test that test visual memory is the WRAML2 www4.parinc.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=WRAML2It tests specifically the different type of memory (visual, verbal, and attention). It was useful for my son because it showed that, though his verbal memory/learning ability was sometimes low, the visual was a lot worse.
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Post by healthy11 on Jul 10, 2013 10:30:12 GMT -5
[quote author=" ceratops" For those who have more experience dealing with the public schools, what exactly (and I mean the question seriously) is their expertise in this process? [/quote] I hope you don't get totally discouraged, but the reality is that a school's "expertise" is very often limited to the knowledge that individual teachers and staff have about a given condition. It can vary between classroom instructors, from school to school, from district to district, from state to state. I wish there was a better answer to give you, but the reality is that new teacher training is lousy ( millermom.proboards.com/thread/13508/study-teacher-programs-failing-grades ) and few districts offer much in-service training, so the best you can hope for is that an individual might either be a parent or have a family member with a similar LD, or they have previously had students with similar conditions in their classrooms. I felt like I was "educating the educators" about my son's "2e" issues throughout his K-12 school years.
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Post by bros on Jul 10, 2013 11:32:10 GMT -5
For those who have more experience dealing with the public schools, what exactly (and I mean the question seriously) is their expertise in this process? What are they actually good at, typically? I had thought that it was my job to ask for help for DS, and to alert the professionals to details of his behavior and experience that might be problematic or unusual. Then, I imagined, they would use that information (and information from DS's teachers, of course) to target their testing and nail down his specific difficulties. In fact, even though the people from the school have been quite cooperative, concerned, and helpful, they haven't acted much like experts about learning disabilities. Several details I mentioned (this fine-print-on-white-paper problem is only one example) were simply dismissed, rather than being seen as possible clues to what is going on with DS. Also, judging from many of the posts earlier in this thread, the testing that was done was not very comprehensive or targeted. I'm probably just naive about this process, but it hasn't been what I expected, so far. For future reference (if I ask for further testing at some point next year, perhaps), are there specific tests that look more closely at these visual processing issues? It varies from district-to-district, as to who is knowledgeable about what. The knowledge of the staff varies from school to school and it all depends on what they know. One test you might want is the Beery Buktenica test of Visual Motor Integration, it is performed by an OT.
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Post by SharonF on Jul 10, 2013 12:15:17 GMT -5
ceratops--
Good question about "expertise." Too many schools put their emphasis on IEP eligibility. If a kid is found eligible, too many schools use "placement" (Resource, RTI, Inclusion, etc.) as their first response. The assumption is that just putting the kid in a special setting will magically address the child's "unique educational needs" as required by law.
As you can see, that approach seems to sidestep the word "individual" in IEP. It also sidesteps the importance of determining WHY a child is struggling and WHAT approach might be best for that student.
My experience was that few teachers, even SpEd teachers, understood LDs. Most teachers had a one-dimensional understanding of LDs from ADHD to Autism to dyslexia. In other words, most teachers thought that all kids with Autism were exactly alike. They thought all kids with dyslexia were exactly alike. And most teachers had never heard of visual processing problems, auditory processing disorder or Nonverbal Learning Disability.
Most teachers had learned even less about co-morbidity. What if a kid has ADHD *and* has a reading disability? What if a kid has Asperger's and trouble with sequencing or working memory? What if a kid's eval scores don't indicate any "classic" diagnosis, but instead portray a strange hodge-podge of gifts and difficulties? (What I call "bits and pieces" kids.)
As others have said, most teachers learn from personal experience. That can be great! But it can also be bad. If a teacher says, "I taught a child with Asperger's last year so I understand how to teach your child," that can be a huge problem.
Or when my kids' reading fluency was high but comprehension was low, MANY teachers quickly jumped to the conclusion that I had not read to my kids when they were little. They accused my husband and me of raising our kids in a literacy-poor household. WRONG! But the teachers had been taught in college and reinforced at annual workshops that ALL kids who have language processing issues must ALL comes from homes where books are not cherished and words are not encouraged. Easy excuses are often wrong.
As others have said, I often felt like I was educating the educators. Some were receptive. Some were not. A few were even hostile. Like you, I naievely expected the educators to WANT to identify exactly why my kids were struggling and how to help them. Too often, their only response was cookie-cutter solutions. And they were quick to "blame the parent" when I pushed for anything more.
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Post by ceratops on Jul 11, 2013 6:04:03 GMT -5
I'm with Empeg on homework. I spent too much time "supporting" my dd, or so I thought. It created dependency, not to mention plenty of tears and anger. As the curriculum gets more complex, it will be more difficult for you to help your son, and believe me, you do not want to spend hours every night for the next 7 years doing homework with him. (And will you have time to "help" all your kids with their homework?) ... Thank you for your detailed comments and suggestions! "will you have time to "help" all your kids with their homework?"
This was actually another of those dawning realizations that led to the referral -- our middle child is now old enough to have his own homework, and, lo and behold, it's not at all the same experience that we've grown to know and love (NOT) with DS. Middle child usually needs one polite reminder, goes and gets homework assignment, sits and does it (independently, for the most part), and sticks completed assignment in backpack 10 minutes later. He also remembers to give us permission slips to sign, remembers on his own to bring his school library book back to school on the proper day (which totally shocked me when he did it without any prompting), etc. Third child (age 6) also contributed to my unease about DS this year -- by doing things like effortlessly reciting the months of the year in order, reliably knowing right from left, and reciting our phone number and street address for fun. I read a tongue-in-cheek 'symptom' on some other website recently -- it went something like, "Is your child with learning problems your first-born?" Their point was not that oldest children have more disabilities; rather, that parents are slower to recognize problems in their oldest child, because they have no prior experience to compare to. I really like the idea of finite homework time. I'm still not quite sure how that model works, though, if DS doesn't actually attempt to do any work in the allotted time -- he can make 15 minutes vanish as if by magic. Is it best, at first, to simply require physical presence, in the chosen homework location, even if no work gets done? Otherwise, if I insist that he actually work for 15 minutes on his math assignment (for example) before taking a break, I fear that we'll be back to the current mess, where homework sometimes stretches out over much of the evening. We have tried limiting the time DS spends on any one assignment, but, by insisting on 15 or 20 minutes of honest effort (which only seems fair), we usually end up back in the trap of way too much elapsed time on homework. It's miserable for DS, miserable for me, and really unfair to the other children (DS gets an awful lot of attention, albeit negative attention). "If he's still stuck (more often than not), he can politely ask for help. I don't know what is developmentally appropriate, but it strikes me that it would be useful for him, when he's feeling confused or stuck, to articulate what he does understand and then what he doesn't understand, because that's what he will need to be able to do to seek help in life, for both school and work."
This is one of my biggest worries about DS -- he usually just gets stuck and digs his heels in, rather than asking for help. This higher level skill (realizing that he doesn't understand something, that he needs help, and then asking for help) is so important, and I don't know how to help him develop that skill. He tends to shut down on an entire task when there is one difficult part to that task (for example, refusing to start on a math worksheet if there are one or two problems he doesn't know how to do; or trying to avoid all of his homework because there is one particular assignment he dreads). It is like pulling teeth to get him to say what the actual difficulty is. The more I think about this, the more important it seems to get an IEP goal in this area. I would also like to know how I can help him with this skill at home; what I've tried thus far certainly hasn't worked well. Come to think of it, I worry about DS's self-esteem, but my parental self-esteem isn't doing so well either -- as in, why can't I, as a supposedly intelligent and responsible adult, figure out how to help my child with this problem ...? "Also, given the organization problems, I'd say homework does not end with school assignments. Once those are done, there should be the "filing" of papers: assignments or signed permission slips/notices to be turned in, homework handouts that need to be saved, anything that goes into his binder — you should inspect all this!...Getting all this "work" out of the way will be a nuisance, but will reduce stress the rest of the evening, help with sleep, and hopefully make mornings smoother."We do some of this already, but I think we need to add more details to our daily routine. Getting more of it done in the evening, and involving DS more in the review and preparation of his materials in the evening, all sounds like a good idea. This is also something I could discuss with him over the summer, so the changes don't come as a shock in the fall. The main thing you've mentioned, that I think I haven't fully appreciated, is that I need to be more directly involved in walking through many of the steps with DS, at least initially -- just saying, "Make sure your homework is in your backpack, and your backpack is by the door!" (something I hear myself saying frequently) isn't adequate. Well, heck, I know it isn't adequate... more often than not, I'm picking up abandoned homework assignments in the morning, searching for DS's binder, packing everything in his backpack, etc. before he wakes up.
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Post by ceratops on Jul 11, 2013 6:19:45 GMT -5
Thank you to everyone who responded to my "what are the schools actually good at" question... your comments and experiences pretty much confirm my growing suspicion that we have to learn more about this process, and about DS's specific needs, ourselves in order to best help him. Just handing the problem over to the 'experts' is not adequate (as is true in so many other aspects of life where experts are consulted or hired).
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Post by dihicks6 on Jul 11, 2013 6:31:31 GMT -5
In my dd's case, homework time was a nightmare because she didn't understand the material, or the process (math), etc. IMO, there should be minimal homework for sped kids because it's an exercise in futility. I had the accommodation of no more than 1 hr of homework per night added to her IEP. In addition, if she didn't understand it, was confused, etc., I simply wrote that on the homework and sent it back in.
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Post by michellea on Jul 11, 2013 6:43:30 GMT -5
Ceratops -
Many of my clients have an accommodation in the their IEP that homework will be adjusted to take no more than the the district standard, without penalty. RE: if the standard for 6th grade is one hour, the student stops after one hour, parent signs off and there are no negative consequences. Some of my clients agree to some amount over the standard, recognizing that their child needs the practice and takes longer. But, no matter what there has to be a ceiling.
As far as expertise - I have seen wide variations from district to district and even classroom to classroom within a school. Some schools are excellent, others are a mess. No matter what, it pays to be vigilant and advocate for everything your son needs. The squeaky wheel gets the attention.
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Post by ceratops on Jul 11, 2013 7:25:34 GMT -5
In my dd's case, homework time was a nightmare because she didn't understand the material, or the process (math), etc. IMO, there should be minimal homework for sped kids because it's an exercise in futility. I had the accommodation of no more than 1 hr of homework per night added to her IEP. In addition, if she didn't understand it, was confused, etc., I simply wrote that on the homework and sent it back in. Many of my clients have an accommodation in the their IEP that homework will be adjusted to take no more than the the district standard, without penalty. RE: if the standard for 6th grade is one hour, the student stops after one hour, parent signs off and there are no negative consequences. Some of my clients agree to some amount over the standard, recognizing that their child needs the practice and takes longer. But, no matter what there has to be a ceiling. ... Thank you both. It looks like goal 2 on DS's IEP (the goal that states that he will complete all homework and classwork) may need some changes to fit reality. 'Work completion' was one of the concerns expressed by teachers and staff at our team meetings, so that's probably why the person writing up the draft IEP put that in. I'm starting to realize that work completion shouldn't be seen as some sort of holy grail.
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Post by healthy11 on Jul 11, 2013 8:23:49 GMT -5
[quote author=" ceratops" I'm starting to realize that work completion shouldn't be seen as some sort of holy grail.[/quote] Speaking from personal experience, I'd be careful about how you address the issue of completion, especially with your son. It's one thing to not have him sitting for 3 or 4 hours when a task should only take an hour, HOWEVER I think many ADHD'ers tend to start a lot of projects (including homework) with good intentions, and then they get bored/distracted/stuck and don't finish what they start. If he CAN'T do the work because he doesn't understand a concept or due to LD, that's a different issue than "mindlessly" wasting time. I hate to keep bringing it up, but ADHD medication often helps with a child's ability to focus and accomplish tasks more efficiently. Still, you'll need to help your son learn better time management and organization skills. He many need to work for 15 minutes, then take a 5 minute break, then go back to work again...There are special watches that help kids "see time fly" at www.timetimer.com/ and I believe there are apps that do the same thing... Another thing to realize is that in middle school and beyond, he will have multiple teachers, who don't always "coordinate" when they give homework, projects, or tests. Even though the guideline might be 10 min. of homework per grade level (so a 6th grader averages 60 minutes) it may very well be that your son has some nights where he has to spend more. On nights/weekends when he doesn't have as much to do, I'd still try to get him in the habit of at least reading/reviewing material, so he isn't "cramming" at the last minute for tests. I realize he may not like it, but in my view, part of homework isn't just "the academics," but also developing better habits for later, like when he's in college and there are no IEPs and you won't be around to supervise him.
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Post by michellea on Jul 11, 2013 8:43:27 GMT -5
Regarding completion - I agree be careful. I would look at three things regarding the process: 1. Does the student have the academic skills present at the independent level to complete the hw assignment? 2. Does the student's disability create a barrier to efficiency? (slow processing, poor reading and writing, poor planning, organization and focusing skills) 3. What do supports and instruction is needed to get them where they need to be. Perhaps interim goals would look at the ability to "get started and initiate work", use tools when stuck, self monitor to insure he is staying on task, using strategies and checking work. All these things might lead to better completion. But until one knows how to "get started", for instance, one will not complete the job - with or without medication. My son (now a rising Junior) has been on Concerta since second grade. He has the inattentive type of ADHD. The medication would not help him with homework if he did not have the academic skills needed to do the work, if he did not have the planning, organizational and self monitoring strategies that he was explicitly taught. Medication can help. It can help a lot. BUT it does not teach the skills - it only makes the student more available to use the skills they've been taught. AND medication does not work for each student or may have side effects that makes medication during homework time impossible. The best thing you can do is explore all options, and to make sure the educational program addresses all areas of needs - including those executive functioning difficulties that get in the way of all aspects of life. This is one of my favorite articles on executive functioning: www.greatschools.org/special-education/health/1017-executive-function-lens-to-view-your-child.gs?page=allAlso - I love these three books (in no particular order). You may want to pick one up and begin to implement some of the strategies at home. Then when you meet with the school in the fall, you can explain to them what works, what doesn't and help them to zero in on the specific organizational problems your son has: No Mind Left Behind www.amazon.com/Mind-Left-Behind-Understanding-Control-The/dp/0399534555Late, Lost and Unprepared www.amazon.com/Late-Lost-Unprepared-Executive-Functioning/dp/1890627844/ref=pd_sim_b_4Smart But Scattered www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scattered-Revolutionary-Executive/dp/1593854455/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y
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Post by ceratops on Jul 11, 2013 9:23:49 GMT -5
Speaking from personal experience, I'd be careful about how you address the issue of completion, especially with your son.... That gets back to my question about what to do, in practical terms, about work completion. As I described a few posts ago, DS has become an expert at killing time, so my approach with homework has been to only count the time he is actually working. On assignments that I know he can do in a reasonable amount of time (from seeing him do very similar assignments before, for example), I've insisted that he actually finish the assignment, even if he wastes a lot of time along the way. However, this approach of only counting 'real' work time invariably gets us back into lots of elapsed time on homework, along with the accompanying conflict and stress. Is ADHD meds the only helpful approach? We do intend to explore that route; however, I can't help thinking there must be something else I can do to improve the current situation, in terms of rules, limits, my reactions to DS's various time-wasting behaviors... SOMETHING. One problem with what we have been doing is the very frequent parental monitoring and intervention required -- Is he actually working, or has he wandered off on some sidetrack? Is his break time over (DS doesn't do well keeping track of this himself)? Is he actually having a basic problem understanding the work, or is the work doable but slow and difficult for him, or is he just goofing off? His lack of self-awareness, and general weakness in asking for help, often make it hard to tell. Also, when should he stop working on something that's taking too long? Sometimes a teacher would keep telling DS to complete the same incomplete assignment, day after day, even when I had communicated how slow and tedious the task was for DS, and we would hack away at it for another 15 or 20 minutes nightly -- usually these dragged-out assignments would just quietly expire at some point, with no clear communication about their status, which was really demoralizing -- what should a parent do in that case? The need for frequent parental monitoring also means the system tends to fail when the parent is distracted from the monitoring 'job' -- e.g. by other family activities, needs of other children, the parent(s) actually going out of the house occasionally for a recreational activity (God forbid), etc. A simple time limit rule -- so much per night and no more -- is very attractive in its simplicity. And I would really like to quit my 'job' of being the homework police, with all the associated stress and conflict with DS. As other posters have said, this isn't good for the parent-child relationship, and it is leading to more dependency, rather than to independent effort. However, I can see your points about the value of good work habits, the fact that multiple teachers won't coordinate the work load, etc. Maybe a time limit is too simplistic. While waiting on the meds issue (lead time for appointment), I would like to make some progress in planning how to handle homework next fall. I certainly appreciate all the advice people have shared in this thread. Anyone have any other suggestions, or suggested reading/links, maybe? I guess this is more a parenting issue than a special ed issue... P.S. Thanks for the book suggestions in the post just above (I hadn't read michellea's post yet when I posted).
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Post by healthy11 on Jul 11, 2013 15:35:32 GMT -5
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Post by ceratops on Jul 12, 2013 6:24:21 GMT -5
Thanks -- lots of interesting stuff to read.
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Post by michellea on Jul 12, 2013 8:12:57 GMT -5
Ceratops - One thing to keep in mind. Homework is like "napping" and "potting training". You can provide the structure and incentive, but you cannot make your child sleep, poop or do their homework. You don't own the completion or quality - your son does.
You can provide support: Structure (let's find an area that you are comfortable doing hw. We can set up all your supplies so they are easy to find) incentives (If you hand in all your homework assignments next week, you can celebrate by going to Lazer tag with your friend) expectations(after you have a snack and shoot a few hoops, you can get started on your homework), consequences (you'll have to miss the sleepover this weekend if you do not finish the outline for your paper today) and limits (Yes, you can watch tv once your homework is done and your back pack is packed).
The school has a responsibility to make sure he has the skills and knowledge and understanding to do the hw independently (and to send home the assignments and resources).
Beyond these supports, homework is all his.
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Post by shragae on Jul 14, 2013 12:39:13 GMT -5
. . .3. All aspects of writing cause misery. Planning, organizing, physically putting text on paper, spelling, editing and revising. DS much prefers to write on the computer now (use of keyboard alleviates problems with the act of writing, and spell check helps somewhat with spelling problems). . . Hello Ceratops. I'm mom to a 14 year old with NLD / NVLD and based on your WISC-IV scores your child does have NLD. Some symptoms of NLD (aside from the high verbal / lower non-verbal scores) are poor handwriting (dysgraphia), Math problems (dyscalculia) and poor attention / focusing. A kid with NLD appears to have ADHD (same symptoms), but normally ADHD meds do not help. They did nothing for my son who was misdiagnosed for years with ADHD. NLD is not a recognized disability, so as a parent you will need to learn as much as you can about it and request services / IEP based on the symptoms. Have you had an eye exam to see if your child has visual spatial processing disorder (another common symptom?). I highly recommend a book Take Control of Asperger's Syndrome / Non-verbal Learning Disorder. The author's child has NLD. There are some wonderful websites with information. Just "Google" NLD (nonverbal).
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Post by shragae on Jul 14, 2013 12:44:13 GMT -5
his problems with reading (decoding problems; not enjoying reading on his own even though he has always loved listening to books read aloud In one of your posts you mentioned you didn't think he had NLD because he doesn't like to read. BINGO. Very typical NLD. This is true for my son, too. Please have his vision checked to see if he has visual spatial processing disorder -- fairly typical with NLD (my son has it). My son doesn't like to read (unless it is a book he is interested in LOL) because he has double vision, letters aren't where they "should be" (many kids with NLD have Dyslexia). If he visually reads he may read "words" but miss meaning and content. Yet he can listen and comprehend an audio book. . . I often try to find audio books (Youtube often has them) for books he has to read for school. I also signed him up for Bookshare -- which is free since he has a documented LD. These are audio books! Look into it.
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Post by healthy11 on Jul 14, 2013 14:17:46 GMT -5
I realize many of us on Millermoms "pull" from our own experiences, and I'm no different, but my son also doesn't like to read, he has terrible handwriting, and he's made plenty of math mistakes, but he does NOT have NLD. My son has ADHD, dyslexia and dysgraphia, and ADHD medication is very helpful when he takes it. It is important to know that children can have BOTH ADHD and NLD, along with other diagnoses, so medication CAN even be helpful for NLD students, too, like SharonF's daughter....
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Post by bros on Jul 14, 2013 15:45:42 GMT -5
Yeah, like I have dysgraphia, social anxiety, social phobia, generalized anxiety, fine & gross motor dysfunction, and incoordination.
That COULD be wrapped up into a nice tight little package with Asperger's, but my doctors don't believe I have it.
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Post by shragae on Jul 14, 2013 18:06:41 GMT -5
I realize many of us on Millermoms "pull" from our own experiences, and I'm no different, but my son also doesn't like to read, he has terrible handwriting, and he's made plenty of math mistakes, but he does NOT have NLD. My son has ADHD, dyslexia and dysgraphia, and ADHD medication is very helpful when he takes it. It is important to know that children can have BOTH ADHD and NLD, along with other diagnoses, so medication CAN even be helpful for NLD students, too, like SharonF's daughter.... The OP (first post) gave the WISC-IV results and her son's verbal IQ was significantly higher than his others. This is a criteria for NLD (non-verbal learning disorder) ( link): The OP said this was true for her son. I was simply pointing out that based on the test results she posted and subsequent things she wrote (about his handwriting, vision problems, etc.) that NLD MIGHT be a diagnosis. I'm not a doctor and I'm not "making a diagnosis" -- merely an observation that her son sounds a lot like my son. . . While it is possible to have ADHD and NLD be comorbid, it isn't common. In my son's case he does not have ADHD, although if one simply looked at his "symptoms" you would diagnose him with ADHD. Various studies have shown that many NLDers seem to have ADHD, but don't -- and meds don't help them as a result. There is a good article " Is it ADHD or Non-verbal Learning Disorder" that I suggest be read.
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Post by bros on Jul 14, 2013 18:48:09 GMT -5
I realize many of us on Millermoms "pull" from our own experiences, and I'm no different, but my son also doesn't like to read, he has terrible handwriting, and he's made plenty of math mistakes, but he does NOT have NLD. My son has ADHD, dyslexia and dysgraphia, and ADHD medication is very helpful when he takes it. It is important to know that children can have BOTH ADHD and NLD, along with other diagnoses, so medication CAN even be helpful for NLD students, too, like SharonF's daughter.... The OP (first post) gave the WISC-IV results and her son's verbal IQ was significantly higher than his others. This is a criteria for NLD (non-verbal learning disorder) ( link): The OP said this was true for her son. I was simply pointing out that based on the test results she posted and subsequent things she wrote (about his handwriting, vision problems, etc.) that NLD MIGHT be a diagnosis. I'm not a doctor and I'm not "making a diagnosis" -- merely an observation that her son sounds a lot like my son. . . While it is possible to have ADHD and NLD be comorbid, it isn't common. In my son's case he does not have ADHD, although if one simply looked at his "symptoms" you would diagnose him with ADHD. Various studies have shown that many NLDers seem to have ADHD, but don't -- and meds don't help them as a result. There is a good article " Is it ADHD or Non-verbal Learning Disorder" that I suggest be read. NVLD is a possible diagnosis, but then again, the child could just have a cornucopia of diagnoses. I have high verbal scores, but no diagnosis of NVLD. Who knows if it have it?
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Post by ceratops on Jul 14, 2013 19:16:05 GMT -5
Hello Ceratops. I'm mom to a 14 year old with NLD / NVLD and based on your WISC-IV scores your child does have NLD. Some symptoms of NLD (aside from the high verbal / lower non-verbal scores) are poor handwriting (dysgraphia), Math problems (dyscalculia) and poor attention / focusing. A kid with NLD appears to have ADHD (same symptoms), but normally ADHD meds do not help. They did nothing for my son who was misdiagnosed for years with ADHD. Thank you for your perspective. You speak with great certainty, based on the WISC results. I will look again at NLD/NVLD information -- I've looked a few times before -- precisely because of that gap between DS's VCI and PRI scores -- and each time I've come away with the feeling that it doesn't sound quite like DS. He was not facile with words from an early age; rather, he had an early expressive language delay. He is not super-literal about language; he generally understands nuances and sarcasm. Sometimes he does seem fixed on details from material he reads, but he is also able to see the larger picture. He is not particularly physically clumsy (learned to ride a bicycle before age 6, for example). He is a hands-on learner by preference, despite his high VCI score on the WISC. I don't know much about NVLD; this is just a first impression, reading a little bit about it and trying to see if the image fits DS... The OP said this was true for her son. I was simply pointing out that based on the test results she posted and subsequent things she wrote (about his handwriting, vision problems, etc.) that NLD MIGHT be a diagnosis. I'm not a doctor and I'm not "making a diagnosis" -- merely an observation that her son sounds a lot like my son. . . As I said, I will read some more about NVLD. Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on DS's situation!
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Post by ceratops on Jul 14, 2013 19:24:06 GMT -5
NVLD is a possible diagnosis, but then again, the child could just have a cornucopia of diagnoses. ... Oh, hurray... quite an image I think you're likely right about the cornucopia -- the labels are already accumulating for DS, and his difficulties seem to interact in complex and individual ways.
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