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Post by shragae on Feb 14, 2012 10:50:18 GMT -5
My son, Shraga, has NLD (nonverbal learning disorder) with a verbal IQ of 138. His verbal IQ is 38 points higher than his performance IQ and 47 points higher than his working memory, which equals learning disability. Neuro-psych report said DS has an anoxic brain injury causing attention, focusing, processing issues, etc. School finally gave DS an IEP in November 2011 - and things seem to be getting progressively worse since then. DS was moved from Pre-IB Math to regular Math. He was making a "C" in advanced Math -- and is still a "C" student in regular math. He lost his daily helper and now gets 15 minutes twice a week from someone not as qualified. I've repeatedly asked for previous tutor to be told "he isn't ESE." Had a meeting 2 weeks ago to discuss concerns that DS is flunking ALL tests. He is doing OK in classes (all classes -- getting A and B grades) -- but on all tests is failing. The teacher they had attend the meeting is his one "A" class -- English. DS is an excellent writer. Keep in mind that English is less structured and rigid than other subjects so it is not surprising he has fewer issues in this class -- but this led the team to say 1. Shraga learns in classes that interest him (an “A” in English) – meaning he is “not trying” in classes he is failing? 2. Shraga is doing well in all classes – and then failing tests. The school’s response “maybe he isn’t “good” at tests – not all kids test well. Shraga has primarily “A” and “B” grades in class but is failing tests. (Some homework was turned in late – Shraga is not to be penalized for late work but I notice an “F” on 1/17 homework and a “D” on 1/23 homework) that I know was turned in because I emailed them to the teacher! So what to do? I am upset -- and told my son I was "shocked and upset" over his grades -- but I truly don't think that the problem lies with him -- otherwise why would he be getting A and B grades in class? How can I get the school to 'wake up" and do what needs to be done -- or should I start looking at LD schools and pull him out next year with a McKay Scholarship? (We're in Florida). For the first time in years my son is doing well socially -- he is very popular and last year he was extremely depressed. Some of you may remember when I began posting here my son was in a small private school he'd attended since age 5. He was possibly suicidal (probably) and was Baker Acted twice in one year for suicidal ideation. He is now on Lamictal (anxiety) and Seroquel for insomnia (depression) and this week began taking a low dose of Concerta in the hopes of helping somewhat in school. Given his emotional swings I have to give top priority to his mental health -- but long term his education is critical as he IS smart and deserves a chance to do well in life!  |
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Post by dihicks6 on Feb 14, 2012 11:08:12 GMT -5
He's getting A's and B's because those grades are (or can be) made up of some pretty subjective criteria. Testing actually measures mastery of the subject (unless he knows the subject and needs testing mods), and therein lies your problem.
If it were me, I would send in an email and request another expedited IEP meeting as he as failed XXX amount of tests. This may be a situation where you will have to do their jobs for them and put requests on the table for them to agree to or refuse. Testing mods, address the pre- and post-teaching reinforcement that he probably needs, things of this nature. Also remember that this sped journey is a long one and don't forget to pace yourself. I know it's very upsetting when you know your child has the ability, but the school is not willing to give him ways to show it.
Also, when they start giving you the usual crap in the meetings, you need to call them on it, right then and there. Failing tests does not equal FAPE and they need to really do their jobs and develop an IEP that will confer meaningful educational benefit. His present IEP does not. Also, ask your son what he finds difficult about tests. You may be able to glean some info there also. Go in the next meeting prepared to NOT come out until some appropriate changes are made to the IEP. Also begin to request PWN for anything they refuse. Good luck!
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Post by deeyana on Feb 15, 2012 10:36:01 GMT -5
If I remember correctly your son becomes anxious on test. Does he have an extended time on test in separate classroom accommodations. Or test segmented? Or maybe he's not receiving the accommodations on IEP (I found out earlier this year that my son was not getting extended time on test which is on his IEP...) I also would like to suggest maybe adding a study guide for test on his IEP?
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Post by fc11 on Feb 15, 2012 20:41:49 GMT -5
Hi shragae,
Sorry to digress, how do you know your son has NLD? I am trying to find someone who can determine whether my daughter has NLD. I am thinking it should be from a neuropsych, but then I also think I should look for a medical doctor...
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Post by shragae on Feb 23, 2012 18:58:58 GMT -5
fc11, sorry I didn't see your post until just now. My DS had a neuro-psych and the test results showed he had NLD. His verbal IQ is 138 -- and his processing speed / executive functioning is around 40 points lower. The school wants another meeting because of all the emails I've been sending (now 2 "F" grades in Geography and a D -- bringing over all grade to a "D" from a "B"). I feel so frustrated -- I don't really see the value in yet another meeting. Fact is they just are not doing the right things for DS. For example (and I've told them this). Prior to the IEP he was getting help daily in advanced Math. He had a "C." Now in regular Math he still has a "C" (almost a "D" -- a 70%) but only gets an aid for 15 minutes twice a week. Aide is now on maternity leave and sub shows up and just watched him -- didn't offer any help! WT?  Because DS is smart they seem to think some of this is laziness or "not trying." Believe me it isn't! He spends a long time on homework and he tries. Problem is part of his problem is attention / focus and this can appear as if he doesn't care. . . TBI but I shout it till I'm blue in the face and they just don't seem to get it! |
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Post by healthy11 on Feb 23, 2012 20:42:15 GMT -5
fc11, many people look at the discrepancy between Verbal and Performance portions on IQ testing as an indication of NVLD...I know shragae made comparison between his son's verbal and processing speed sections, and while that difference is indicative of a disability, I wouldn't say it's indicative of NVLD. In any case, a single test should not be the basis to diagnose NVLD; a good evaluator will consider multiple factors, including a person's actual behaviors in different settings, to make a determination. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_learning_disorder |
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Post by shragae on Feb 23, 2012 21:13:06 GMT -5
The neuro-psych diagnosed NLD based on anoxic brain injuries. He tied the specific disabilities to various medical reports-- my son matches exactly the criteria in those medical reports. Anderson & Arciniegas, Cognitive Sequelae of hypoxic-ischemic brain injury- A Review NeuroRehabilitation 26(l):47-63 January 2010).
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Post by fc11 on Feb 24, 2012 0:19:50 GMT -5
thanks for the explanation on NVLD, as I suspect my sd may play this game, they are asking me to send my kid for an eval by a neurologist (yes, a MD)
Shragae,
coming back to your question..when your team said
1. Shraga learns in classes that interest him (an “A” in English) – meaning he is “not trying” in classes he is failing?
2. Shraga is doing well in all classes – and then failing tests. The school’s response “maybe he isn’t “good” at tests – not all kids test well.
and as you have an option, my suggestion is to run.
You can't change them...I spent the Presidents' day listening to nearly 10 hours of tape (as I was preparing for the hearing), I repeat the same thing again and again explaining to them that my kid did not understand in class, they insisted she did. I told them I spent hours to help teach her when she came home not knowing what she learned, she only memorized the answers, they said "But she got As". My frustration was due to my assumption that they would understand if I were to try harder.. No. finally I got her teacher to teach her, then I finally have a teacher on my side.
But 18 months later, I still have to file a DP.
Again, if you have other options, don't waste your time with them
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Post by bros on Feb 24, 2012 0:52:24 GMT -5
thanks for the explanation on NVLD, as I suspect my sd may play this game, they are asking me to send my kid for an eval by a neurologist (yes, a MD) Shragae, coming back to your question..when your team said 1. Shraga learns in classes that interest him (an “A” in English) – meaning he is “not trying” in classes he is failing? 2. Shraga is doing well in all classes – and then failing tests. The school’s response “maybe he isn’t “good” at tests – not all kids test well. and as you have an option, my suggestion is to run. You can't change them...I spent the Presidents' day listening to nearly 10 hours of tape (as I was preparing for the hearing), I repeat the same thing again and again explaining to them that my kid did not understand in class, they insisted she did. I told them I spent hours to help teach her when she came home not knowing what she learned, she only memorized the answers, they said "But she got As". My frustration was due to my assumption that they would understand if I were to try harder.. No. finally I got her teacher to teach her, then I finally have a teacher on my side. But 18 months later, I still have to file a DP. Again, if you have other options, don't waste your time with them Neurologists are decent My first neurologist (Ronald Barabas in Wall NJ) is excellent with LDs and disabilities. He was the one who identified that I had dysgraphia and ADHD. If you can pick a neurologist, try to go to Barabas if you want to make the drive down to Wall, because Dr. Barabas is amazing. He will spend as much time with you as you need. My typical appointments with him would last 30-60 minutes |
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Post by deeyana on Feb 24, 2012 8:29:29 GMT -5
Shragae, I know you probably don't want to hear this....usually here in fl, when parents request sped evaluations the school begins to bump up the child's grades. I guess they believe the parent will back down from pursuing an IEP etc? IMO it's pretty normal to hear that they're saying he cant pass the test because he just doesn't test well or is "lazy.."because not testing well or being lazy is not a disability and that = no services. Your son already qualified for an IEP but perhaps changes need to be made geared towards services he needs. Changes can only be made during an IEP meeting not just another meeting. Obviously 15min 2X a week or even 15min a day by an aide does not seem sufficient. I would go to this meeting and argue that your son is regressing...?You might also want to bring up ESY and have them add this to his IEP if necessary? If I remember correctly your son has a 1hr a day learning strategies class. My son is also in this "learning strategies class". The class is taught by an SPED (ESE) teacher and about 5 students. Perhaps the ESE teacher can focus on math strategies. From my son's description of this class, it sounds like a resource period with a wide range of things that is focused on (sometimes but not everyday...). According to my son, he spends a good portion of the period independently reading a book...If you ask me, this time can be better spent working on areas your son needs like math?
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Post by shragae on Feb 24, 2012 12:44:08 GMT -5
deeyana, you are right -- I do not want to hear this!
It seems DS is getting less services now that he has an IEP than when he was in the RTI process. My son IS smart and while I'm happy that he is it is also a pat excuse for the school. They want to hold another IEP meeting with me because I'm bugging the heck out of them with email after email "why is his grade a "D"?" "Why is this grade an "F"? They should be giving him support and teaching him out to become independent and they are NOT.
His Spanish teacher just agreed to have him go to after school homework help once a week and to her for homeroom on another day and this is great! Why aren't the other teachers doing this? If DS got the repetition and attention he needed he would do well in all his classes!
But here is my dilemma. . . my son suffers from anxiety and depression. Last year he was Bakker acted (mental hospital) for fear he was suicidal. He was there for 5 days. The school does not know this. The one positive this year is that he has a social life and is really enjoying making friends. He is in track, in junior achievement and the science club. Every day he is doing something. I am torn between his emotional needs which, truly, are paramount to me because of last year and what he needs to get on with his life (an education).
So while I'm thinking "McKay Scholarship" as a potential for him to really learn so he can get into college eventually part of me is just so happy with his happiness that I haven't the heart of putting back into a small school where he may not make friends. . .
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Post by deeyana on Feb 24, 2012 13:53:07 GMT -5
I think getting him more services and good accommodations should be the main agenda for this upcoming IEP meeting. With Fcat season around the corner, he will need good accommodations in place. My county requires children receiving a level 1 in reading or math FCAT to be placed in intensive math and or intensive reading class. They are still required to take the reg. LA/reading class and reg math class along with the intensive reading and or math. The intensive reading and intensive math class are each considered an elective.
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Post by fc11 on Feb 24, 2012 17:43:36 GMT -5
If you are thinking getting anything from the school down the road, you may want to begin preparing now.. say don't bombard them with email.. try to show them that you want to have a productive discussion...rather than a demanding parent (I am still learning, and this is what I think now :-) )
Don't argue with them, it does not go any where...ask them on why, even when they say he is lazy, ask them how can "we" (including the teachers) to help him, suggest that he goes to see the teacher and get the teachers to quiz him before the tests, break down the study in several days, ask them to help with a strategy that they have succeeded to work with him so that you can replicate at home..
One strategy I learned here ( I think was from di )when they kept on saying it was my kid's problem, I asked them whether we should have her evaluated or write goals to address it, the problem suddenly disappeared faster than I knew.
While he has more opportunity to make friend in a larger school, it does not mean that he can't have friends in a smaller school. Does he like any sport? a team sport? Again, if I were you, I run.
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Post by fc11 on Feb 24, 2012 17:47:21 GMT -5
bros,
sorry to digress..
But what does a neurologist do? It is not like he can take an x-ray and know her challenges...
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Post by shragae on Feb 24, 2012 18:31:23 GMT -5
fc11 neurologist did an MRI and EEG. Neuro-psychologist gave him all kinds of tests to check his strengths and weaknesses including an IQ test (WISQ-IV), Berry VMI (visual motor) and lots more.
FYI, his Spanish teacher insisted he attend after school tutoring this week and she had him come to her for home room. He has flunked every test in Spanish this year. Result of this intensive effort?
He got an "A." He missed one question. What does THAT tell you?
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Post by fc11 on Feb 24, 2012 20:44:04 GMT -5
He got an "A." He missed one question. What does THAT tell you? What do you think it tells me ?  My suggestion is to find out from the teacher on what works, if possible, in email (don't reference the mail in IEP meeting)..if you think the strategy can be replicated in other classes, invite the teacher to an IEP meeting and let the teacher explains how it works etc...Don't try to convince them yourself (we all know we are right, but no need to remind them that).. Anyway, in my case, I found out 5 min of a teacher's comment was better than 5 hours of my time. |
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Post by bros on Feb 25, 2012 1:55:22 GMT -5
bros, sorry to digress.. But what does a neurologist do? It is not like he can take an x-ray and know her challenges... Barabas would help with my motor skills, monitor them to see if they were not declining, he would do testing (like reflexes, etc.). If I needed more in depth testing, he would refer me to another doctor (Like when my EEG results made him scratch his head, he referred me to a colleague of his who was more knowledgeable on irregular EEGs). When I went to him he was an excellent caring doctor. He knew what dysgraphia was. He knew how it affected me in school in combination with the ADHD. (Barabas is also certififed in adolescent psychiatry and as a clinical geneticist) He is very knowledgeable about learning disabilities and unlike some doctors, he will tell you if he is stumped. He will tell you straight out if he does not know the answer, and will refer you to someone who might be able to help further. |
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Post by fc11 on Feb 27, 2012 1:34:20 GMT -5
bros and shragae,
thanks for the explanation...
They asked for an neurologist and it does not sound right to me. But they said they wanted an MD.
Anyway, this weekend, I went to the pediatrician, she basically said the sd did not know what they were talking about.
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Post by bros on Feb 27, 2012 12:42:44 GMT -5
bros and shragae, thanks for the explanation... They asked for an neurologist and it does not sound right to me. But they said they wanted an MD. Anyway, this weekend, I went to the pediatrician, she basically said the sd did not know what they were talking about. If you can choose a neuro, it might be worth the drive to Barabas. Or at least give him a call, he might be able to recommend some good neuros in your area. Ronald Barabas 3350 HIGHWAY 138 WEST BUILDING 1, SUITE 117 WALL, NJ 07719 (732) 556-0200 Ah. I found what it is called what he likes dealing with. "Neurodevelopmental disabilities" so dysgraphia, adhd, autism, etc. |
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Post by pandora on Feb 27, 2012 15:51:21 GMT -5
If you suspect NLD, then you should be asking the school for a neuropsychological evaluation, OT eval for motor and visual-spatial skills, and a speech/language eval, including social skills. As for a neurological evaluation, that wouldn't be the normal thing, but a brain scan might be a way of corroborating the findings of a neuropsych eval. If the school wants to pay for an (f)MRI or other type of brain scan, that might be interesting. .... It is known that nonverbal learning disabilities involve the performance processes (generally thought of neurologically as originating in the right cerebral hemisphere of the brain, which specializes in nonverbal processing).
Brain scans of individuals with NLD often confirm mild abnormalities of the right cerebral hemisphere. Developmental histories have revealed that a number of the children suffering from nonverbal learning disorders who have come to clinical attention have at some time early in their development: (1) sustained a moderate to severe head injury, (2) received repeated radiation treatments on or near their heads over a prolonged period of time, (3) congenital absence of the corpus callosum, (4) been treated for hydrocephalus, or (5) actually had brain tissue removed from their right hemisphere.
All of these neurological insults involve significant destruction of white matter (long myelinated fibers in the brain) connections in the right hemisphere, which are important for intermodal integration. Hence, current evidence and theories suggest that early damage (disease, disorder, or dysfunction) of the right cerebral hemisphere and/or diffuse white matter disease, which leaves the left hemisphere (unimodal) system to function on its own, is the contributing cause of the NLD syndrome (definitely not dysfunctional home lives). Clinically, this learning disorder classification resembles an adult patient with a severe head injury to the right cerebral hemisphere, both symptomatically and behaviorally.
From www.nldline.com/nld_sue.htm Here are more articles that makes a case for including a neurologist and perhaps doing a brain scan as part of a medical diagnosis of NLD as a neurological condition: www.spinabifidasupport.com/nvldsyndrome.htmtheoddbirdblog.com/2011/05/18/new-study-brain-cysts-nonverbal-learning-disability/www.asec.net/Archives/SLD/NVLD.pdf |
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Post by eoffg on Feb 28, 2012 4:43:58 GMT -5
This conclusion of NLD as a right cerebral dysfunction was made over 15 years ago.
Non-Verbal learning/ thinking, actually involves the Parietal Lobes in each side of the brain.
Then between them, is the Hippocampus, which has some particular Sulci. That bring the information from both Parietal Lobes together.
So that a delay can occur with either or both Parietal Lobes? Which in turn, will limit what connections between them can be formed in the Hippocampus.
Though converse to this, the Parietal Lobes may be fully developed, but the delay has occurred with the connection in the Hippocampus?
Where in fact, a complex of different connections are formed, which carry out various processes.
But referring to NLD as a Visual-Spatial disorder is mis-leading?
As it should then be defined as an Auditory-Spatial disorder?
Where NLD is specifically a delayed development of Spatial thinking.
Where given that we only have the 3 thinking processes of; Auditory, Visual and Spatial. Which all work in combination.
The problem is that Spatial thinking isn't understood as a distinct and equal process to Auditory and Visual thinking?
Where current tests of Spatial thinking, that test the combined use of Visual-Spatial thinking. Rather than testing Spatial thinking in isolation?
Is as absurd as using an Auditory-Visual test, to test either a Hearing or Vision difficulty?
Which would define both as an Auditory-Visual Disorder? AVD.
Where defining someone with a Spatial disorder as having a Visual-Spatial disorder.
Creates as much confusion, as diagnosing a Vision difficulty as an Auditory-Visual Disorder?
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Post by pandora on Feb 28, 2012 11:59:59 GMT -5
Apologies for passing along dated info — that seems to be what predominates on the internet. I readily admit I'm not knowledgeable about either NLD or brain anatomy. What confuses me, Eoffg, is that the both the older URLs and the most up-to-date URL (www.oddbirdblog) refer to MRIs or other brain scans that have shown maybe a dozen medical causes for NLD (see "Medical Causes" at www.nldline.com/childdream.htm#6). A Canadian researcher in the field, Byron Rourke, has suggested these medical conditions impact the white matter of the brain more than the left side, and since white matter has the "wiring" that allows communication among many parts of the brain, it would seem to be white matter problems that are at the core of NLD. (Agree/disagree?) It's an unproven theory, and I'm not sure that he's referring only to known medical causes or if he was generalizing to all cases of NLD. Regardless, I've seen NLD referred to often as a spectrum disorder, which seems to leave a lot of room for interpretation/speculation. Brain imaging may give useful information, but it seems that neuropsych evals would seem to be the best means of evaluating what brain regions are involved (or at least spotlighting their functionality), particularly in individual cases. What I've found interesting is that even though there is a lot of commonality in NLD symptoms, there are subtypes. Brain images old and new apply to subgroups of the population diagnosed with NLD. For example, theoddbirdblog.com/2011/05/18/new-study-brain-cysts-nonverbal-learning-disability/ (new, 2011) did scans on 28 kids with NLD, and found that a fourth showed benign cysts or lesions in the occipital/cerebellar or parietal regions. Another study spoke of 50-some percent of individuals with NVD having a common (sorry, forget details or where I read it). Some medical cases are attributable to congenital factors and some are attributable to acquired insult/injury — but most cases cannot be linked to a medical cause. |
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Post by eoffg on Feb 29, 2012 7:22:14 GMT -5
Hi Pandora,
At birth, a babies brain is virtually all grey matter, just a bundle of disconnected brain cells.
At this stage, their is no connection between the all of the brain regions. So it begins by building what are like 'pipes' , to connect all of the brain regions. This is a one off process, that can only happen in the first year of life. So that if a 'pipe' is not formed, or later broken, it can't be built or rebuilt later.
What occurs with learning, is that connections are formed between the grey matter brain cells. Where it begins by developing connections between cells inside each region. Then progresses to building connections between cells in different regions.
These connections between cells, are actually electrical connections, of about 0.3 volts.
Just as with an electrical wire, where they have a plastic coating to isolate it.
The brain uses white matter/ myelin, to coat these connections.
Where myelin is a high quality fat, (long chain fatty acids/ omega 3).
So that with 'learning', myelin coated 'wires' are formed between cells, inside brain regions, and between brain regions.
Which is a life long process and building, maintaining and removing unused ones.
Though it doesn't simply develop 'one to one' connections, but rather network connections.
But a crucial factor, is that these connections don't develop by themselves, but only as response. In what is actually a 'skills acquisition' process, with each brain region having their own set of skills.
Then a further set of skills, for their integration.
Where it is not appreciated, that we actually have to learn how to use each brain region?
In a defined sequential skills acquisition process, that takes about 8 years.
You mentioned that you've seen NLD referred to often as a spectrum disorder?
Where the confusion is that the development can be disrupted anywhere along this 8 year time-line, with different consequences.
So that instead of simply diagnosing NLD?
It would be far more effective to diagnose where the disruption occurred in the developmental process?
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Post by dihicks6 on Feb 29, 2012 10:23:11 GMT -5
E, so what can disrupt the actual physical process of connection? Just wondering if it's physical or environmental, or both?
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Post by SharonF on Feb 29, 2012 12:00:55 GMT -5
I believe 100% that NLD exists. I want to caution parents, teachers and other experts to be careful when looking at old research into NLD. That is especially true of the early research by NLD pioneers Byron Rourke and Sue Thompson. That research tends to state extreme and narrow definitions of NLD.
Most of their research was 20 years ago. It involved students (nearly all of them boys) with extreme difficulties. They painted very grim pictures of the difficulties these NLDers would have all of their lives with basic life functions such as social interaction, executive function and holding down jobs. Because their subjects had such extreme impairments, their early conclusions were right...for people with extreme impairments. They also were quick to draw conclusions that NLD was caused by some brain trauma or brain disorders.
As the years went by, more researchers built upon the early work of Rourke and Thompson. The later research found a lot more people who have some traits of NLD, or milder traits of NLD. And the later researchers found that that vast majority of people with NLD do not have the extreme impairments noted by Rourke and Thompson. They also found no known cause for most people's NLD.
But the Rourke and Thompson outdated research is still out there, scaring parents. It also convinces teachers and some experts that, because a student is not as bad off as the ones cited by Rourke and Thompson, there is no way that student has NLD.
Some of the early brain research that claimed there is physical PROOF that an NLDer's brain is different...doesn't really apply to people with milder types of NLD. There is no obvious change in gray matter, in white matter, in the corpus callosem, or brain wave function in most people with NLD. fMRIs and EEGs for most NLDers are normal.
It's pretty clear my dd didn't develop NLD because of birth trauma or some brain deformity. No, she inherited it from me. And I inherited my NLD from my mom. Each of us has our own unique traits of NLD, but we have some common traits, too.
My dd also got a touch of my husband's dyslexia and got ADHD-inattentive from somewhere (my uncle maybe?)
fc11--my dd's NLD was diagnosed by a developmental neuropsychologist. But because NLD is not listed in the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual, the neuropsych's formal diagnosis was a term that is in the DSM: LD-NOS.
Her diagnosis of NLD was NOT based solely on the spread between her Verbal and Performance. (Her VCI was 34 points higher.) The NLD diagnosis was based on a long battery of tests including fine motor, gross motor, spatial processing, pragmatic language, abstract reasoning, reading comprehension, anxiety, etc.
Yes, some learning difficulties (including NLD) are caused by birth trauma or head trauma. But by far, most LDs and ADHD are not due to a brain injury or due to bad parenting. That includes NLD.
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Post by wimom on Feb 29, 2012 12:38:26 GMT -5
well said Sharon.
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Post by pandora on Mar 1, 2012 12:20:08 GMT -5
Eoffg, thank you so much for your description of the brain and its connections within and the skills acquisition processes within regions. My brain anatomy and understanding of cells and communication processes has been very fragmented. I loved your explanation of brain development using the analogy of pipes and wires, regional networks of connections, etc. — You reframed and built on my bits-and-pieces knowledge and helped me build a much more coherent picture. I love analogies. I was fascinated to learn that a newborn's brain is all gray matter in need of white matter development for connections. After your explanation, I spent a couple of hours on the internet reading about brain basics and ended up cutting and pasting from various documents to form my own "research paper" on the topic. Still much to learn, but now I have a much more solid foundation.
Sharon, I can totally understand how you would find the outdated research on the most extreme cases harmful to obtaining services for the great majority of less dramatic cases that not only predominate but tend to be discounted and neglected for failing to match up to the extreme cases. Your situation, in the educational arena, is very similar to the problem of getting a medical diagnosis for fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. Ninety percent of kids born with FASD do not display the facial malformations that grabbed early researchers' attention, and they often go undiagnosed. Which means they get all kinds of misdiagnoses, they get blamed for their behavior by parents and teachers, and parents get blamed by teachers, neighbors, and extended family for the kids' behavior. In other words, the kids (and families) do not get desperately-needed interventions to support a better outcome. And people new to the field pick up the old literature and perpetuate the outdated interpretations. Sound familiar? So again, I apologize for passing on narrow and therefore misleading old information.
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Post by SharonF on Mar 1, 2012 13:05:10 GMT -5
pandora--
No apology needed!! I'm very grateful that the Schwab board (precursor to this board) existed ten years ago when we were trying to figure out my dd's confusing and complicated eval scores.
It was a wonderful Schwabbie named 'Tessier' who explained NLD to me. Her sons had NLD. And while her sons' NLD was very different than my dd's NLD, she helped me understand. Not just a clinical understanding by some shrink writing a dissertation, but a mom's understanding of how NLD affects a kid's everyday life. (And it helped that she was a mom with an amazing way with words!)
Just like Tessier was regarding NLD, you have been a voice of understanding and depth on this board for others dealing with FASD. And you have helped all of us understand it from a HUMAN perspective, not just a clinical definition. Sometimes, heartbreakingly so.
And we have many voices here who help us all understand the complicated and even baffling nuances of Aspergers, of ADHD, of dyslexia, and of so many other "simple" labels with complex implications.
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Post by pandora on Mar 1, 2012 15:01:06 GMT -5
Sharon, we all learn a lot from each other here — about stuff that, on the one hand, we wish there was no need to learn about, and stuff that, on the other hand, can become quite fascinating because there is such a strong need to understand.
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Post by hsmom on Mar 1, 2012 21:43:58 GMT -5
Pandora, We do learn a lot from each other and that is what's so great about this forum. Sharon, When you mentioned Tessier's name, it took me back more than two years to when I printed out the long discussion that you, tessier, and jmsrtm had in 2004 on ADHD-combined and NLD and read it to learn about NLD. My son has ADHD-combined and a question was raised by the Academic Dean at his school whether some of the problems he was seeing in my son was due to NLD or not. It was the first time I had heard the term and I wanted to understand what he was talking about. You should know how helpful it was for me to read those postings. Since then I have been aware of what NLD is and wanted to post what I've found, more for others than for you. I know that you know NLD. There is a new book out by John M Davis and Jessica Broitman, Nonverbal Learning Disabilities in Children. I haven't read it yet, but have attached a chapter from it which deals with the history and definition of NLD. They understand that NLD will probably not be in DSM-V, but know that NLD should be formalized so that it will be easier to conduct research and easier for parents to get intervention for their children. Here is Jessica Broitman's website on the above book: astro.berkeley.edu/~basri/Broitman_Home/nvld/Attachments:
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