Low Perceptual Reasoning

[caniacfan]

My dd and I were talking today about her issues with school, how they might affect her in college next year, etc. and I had stop and think...I understand how her very low Working Memory causes her trouble in school, but she also has a very low Perceptual Reasoning score (it was 24, maybe more, points lower than her VCI). I was trying to explain to her how that might make some parts of learning difficult, but I have to admit, I'm not really sure myself. How exactly does a low PRI affect her in school? I understand the spatial things (like having a hard time reading charts or graphs), and I can see how it makes certain types of math difficult, but is there anything else? Also, does having a low PRI affect reading? Not necessarily the ability to read, but does it make reading as a physical thing difficult? My dd has never been a reader and only recently has she been saying that the words on a page seem to "move". I've never heard her say this before but it would explain a lot. I wonder if it's a tracking thing. Are there any other tests, other than the WISC IV, that test PRI? I'm a little worried with her going to college next year...from what I remember about college, there's a lot of reading! I've read a lot on here about developmental optometrists and how they can help with tracking but as a 17 year old, is she too old to get started? I can't tell you how horrible this makes me feel, that she's been having these issues for so long and we really only started finding out last year She never voiced the problems with reading before but now that I look back, she always put off her reading materials for school and would say she could only read if she "skimmed" because that was easier. Just thinking aloud here but I'm thinking skimming is easier if the words do seem to be floating. Sorry for this rather long post everyone! As I said before I just got thinking to myself! Also, the psych who diagnosed her last year really focused on the WMI but not so much with the PRI so I kind of put it off myself, but I think it's coming into play a lot here this senior year....

[healthy11]

I'm not an expert, but my son has exceptionally high PRI skills, and yet he had noticeable tracking problems when he was younger, too. He still doesn't like to read, but I think it's got far more to do with his dyslexia than anything else. I don't believe the difficulties your daughter is experiencing with words "moving" on the page have anything to do with PRI. Some people have mentioned Irlen lenses helping with that, but opinions as to their effectiveness are mixed.

If there was any PRI "relationship" with reading, I think it might have more to do with an ability to "visualize" some descriptions in a 3-D sort of way...for example, if reading about some architectural features of a building, or setting up a physics experiment, it might be harder for a person to visualize what it was supposed to look like without actually seeing a picture or model. (One of the things people who are strong in visual-spatial/perceptual abilities often do is "skip" reading directions on how to do things, because they often just seem to intuitively know how things might fit together...it doesn't mean they're always right, though!)

I guess I'm wondering what your daughter intends to major in, because the effects of low PRI aren't likely to impact everyone to the same degree. She might have difficulty being a fashion designer, but she might do well in retail sales with strong verbal skills, for example...

[caniacfan]

Healthy, that makes sense (as far as reading and seeing the descriptions - my dd does not do that but my son, who had very high PRI scores and is highly visual-spatial, sees 3D in every part of daily life). She's not sure what she wants to major in. She has talked about elem. educ (teaching kindergarten - she works with this age now in an after-school program and loves it) but also likes the idea of some type of PR or something like that. She would do well in anything where she can stand in front of people and talk She would just get lost finding her way to where she was supposed to be standing and talking!

[eoffg]

Caniacfan, Spacial working memory is important for 'order of operations' thinking, particularly when it is non-linear. Though mind-mapping is very helpful, as it provides a way of spacially locating elements and their inter-relationships.
It is also important to recognise Spacial and Visual working memory as 2 distinct types of working memory, that can work in combination.
Where one can have a Spacial w/m difficulty, but still make use of their Visual w/m. For example, with getting lost finding her way, which is a Topographical Disorder. People often use mental snapshots of landmarks, which they recall as a way of finding their way. My point is that it is important to make a distinction between Spacial and Visual w/m, as different strategies are needed, depending on whether the difficulty is with either or both?

But as for the 'moving words', which can be caused by a hyper-sensitivity to the glare from a particular colour within the spectrum. Where the problem with white paper, is that white light is made up of the full colour spectrum. You could test her for this, by using various coloured tints on pages, and see if any of them stop the words moving? Also try reading with some genuine Polaroid glasses, that reduce the glare across all colours.
Many optometrists can make lenses with right colour tint, to correct this.

[SharonF]

caniac--

As you know, our daughters have quite a bit in common.

Also, does having a low PRI affect reading?

PRI is not just a measure of spatial reasoning ability. It can also be an indicator of any abstract reasoning--even abstract reasoning using words such as reading.

Some people with low PRIs have trouble with reading comprehension. They easily get the "who, what, where" but can struggle with the "why and how." Especially if the "why and how" are abstract.

Some people with low PRIs tend to be literal thinkers. They often need help to perceive subtleties, nuances, and influences when they read.

Words wiggling, moving or shimmering on the page are not necessarily caused by a low PRI. BUT, my daughter has a low PRI and words wiggled on the page for her. She thought wiggly words were was normal until we pushed for a lot of testing in middle school.

dd did go through Vision Therapy in about 7th grade and it did help. But it wasn't magic. And VT does not help everyone. Many consider it a complete waste of time and money. Our SpEd director told us our dd was the first student she knew of who reported any success with VT.

dd says the words still move if there is high contrast (black ink on very white paper,) bright light (she is very sensitive to light) or if she is tired.

As eoffg mentioned, colored overlays sometimes help. Google "Irlen's Syndrome" for more info. But different color overlays seem to work better for different people. It's trial and error to see whether your dd prefers a grey overlay rather than light green, or whatever. Colored overlays didn't help my daughter at all. Her reading teacher in middle school tried every color. No luck.

Rather than put your dd though more testing for perceptual reasoning/spatial reasoning ability...or trying Vision Therapy...I'd try something a little easier. Ask your dd to keep track of when the words are most likely to move on the page. High contrast/very white paper? Small print? When she's tired or feeling overwhelmed?

When the words move, does that hurt her concentration and comprehension? If she's lived with it for 17 years, wiggly words may have less impact that you think.

My dd had low reading comprehension scores throughout middle and high school. But she's doing pretty well in college. She has learned to read in small chunks--rather than try to read 50 to 100 pages in one sitting. Sometimes she highlights as she reads. Other times, she writes a two-three sentence summary as she goes along.

The keys for her are relating what she's reading to something she already knows/understands...and to not try to absorb too much info at one time.

One other reality: abstract reasoning tends to improve in late teens/early 20's. It's part of the brain's natural development. People with low PRIs in middle or high school can still "catch up" to the pack. They may never truly understand physics. But the abstract reasoning part of their brains hits a "growth spurt" at about this age that helps them generally catch up to their peers.

[caniacfan]

Sharon, my dd does have a hard time with anything abstract (math, reading, etc). She doesn't comprehend in the academic way. She can read something and understand it, but has a hard time making interpretations of the reading ("what did the author mean when he/she wrote this" and that type of thing. Even after the teacher explains it to her, she still doesn't "see" it). I guess she doesn't really read between the lines well. Because she's always had a good vocabulary and didn't struggle with learning to read, we never thought anything of it (and either did her teachers early on). She has said she thought everyone saw the words moving on a page and was surprised when we the rest of us said we didn't have that problem. Right now she's taking three classes that involve a lot of reading: Honors senior English, honors sociology and honors Holocaust. While she is interested in the books (not in English so much, but in the other classes) she's having a hard time with all the reading and homework/tests that go with it. However, if she's allowed to verbally test (her sociology teacher, who's had my dd in the past, lets her do this) she aces things. It's like if she can talk something out, she's fine, but if she has to read and write answers, it's harder.

Another thing, and I guess this is visual processing, is that scantrons give her a fit. She has a 504 where she doesn't have to do the scantron, which helps. But if any test format is "different" she has a hard time. For example, on a Beowulf test recently the teacher wrote some lines of the book like this: (I don't know Beowulf so just pretend...)

this is beowulf/read this and answer/the questions/
on the lines/below and/then turn your/test in.

All those breaks in the lines were driving my dd crazy. She had a hard time following what she was supposed to do because the paper looked "messy". Is that weird? I know what she was saying as she's mentioned this before. Last year her chemistry tests had way "too much written on them" and she had a hard time following them.

As far as comprehension, as I mentioned she has a hard time but she does take Concerta, which helps her focus...but it doesn't help her always remember everything. I will google the irlen's syndrome - thanks! I definitely think she's a literal thinker. And I like the idea of having her not absord too much at once. Sharon, so glad to hear how well your dd is doing in college!!! Gives me hope.

[SharonF]

"Reading between the lines" has always been hard for my dd. She prefers literal, factual information with no need for interpretation. (Like your example, my dd was always puzzled by "author's intent" or by those compare/contrast questions.) As the years have gone by, she's definitely getting better with the abstract stuff, but some of it still zooms right over her head.

Scantrons: my dd's IEP had an accommodation for her to mark in the test booklet. Sounds like your dd has the same accom. dd would read the question in the booklet, then circle the her answer in the booklet itself. Afterward, a teacher's aide had to transfer all of dd's answers to the scantron--meaning someone else had to fill out all those rows and rows of tiny ovals. That was both because of dd's visual processing problems and her fine motor problems/intense hand pain if she had to bubble in ovals.

I agree that those breaks in the lines on that Beowulf test are confusing and annoying. It would drive me crazy, too! Could she talk with the teacher about using an alternative format to ask the test questions?

Another problem for my dd was any test or worksheet crammed with too many words. Often because of copy-machine limits for each teacher. If any test or sheet had too much information on it, dd would cover up most of the page with a sheet of blank paper. That way, she only saw one question at a time. It helped a lot.

dd also couldn't use graph paper. The lines would swim all over the page and make her nauseous.

In college, dd has become addicted to making flashcards. She uses them in nearly every subject to help improve her memory and recall. Whether it's Spanish, Anatomy/Physiology, or Nutrition....she makes notecards about EVERY key term or concept, and then drills herself until she memorizes what she needs to know. Flashcards don't ensure she can always apply that information accurately, but it's far better than reading the text the night before the test and hoping it "sticks."

[healthy11]

For what it's worth, I'm still not sure that "reading between the lines" has any connection to PRI, because my son also has trouble with fiction and abstract subject matter, and when he does read, he definitely prefers factual, straight-forward material, in "short doses" (ie, magazine or online articles versus books, no matter what the topic.)

[SharonF]

healthy--

I agree that "reading between the lines" is not only a problem for people with low PRIs. Some people with high PRIs also have trouble with inferencing.

However, my dd's neuropsych concluded that dd's low PRI was a major factor in dd's difficulty with inferencing while reading or listening. It's not only inferencing, but grasping the main point and drawing conclusions to understand things that are not stated outright. I often call it "connecting the dots."

Some people have strong visual-spatial reasoning ability but weaker verbal abstract reasoning ability. They do well on the WISC Block Design but are not as good at interpreting a speaker's tone of voice or accurately understanding the author's intent. That sounds like your son.

Other people have weak abstract reasoning in all realms, verbal and non-verbal. I think that describes both caniac's daughter and my dd. Before ADHD meds, my dd's first Block Design score was a 1.

For my dd, the PRI was not the only indicator of her problems with abstract reasoning. Many factors were used by the neuropsych to conclude that dd has Nonverbal Learning Disability. As you know, NLD is far broader than just difficulty with abstract reasoning. But difficulty with abstract reasoning is a hallmark of NLD.

[healthy11]

Sharon, we've known each other for many years, and you clearly recognize that my son (with his 19 on Block Design) is far different from your daughter (and from me, my husband, etc...perhaps he's from another planet? ) I definitely agree that he doesn't pick up on subtle cues, like a speaker's tone of voice or understanding inferences, but I've often felt it's mostly because of his ADHD. I just want to be sure that other people who might be lurking and reading this thread realize that there can be other factors besides low PRI that can be reasons for all the difficulties our kids are having.

[SharonF]

Excellent point. There are few generalities, even among kids with LDs. That's what makes it so hard for parents, teachers..even doctors.

Funny how I read caniac's descriptions (or coby's) and realize how similar their daughters are to mine--in so many, many ways. But your son, with his top-of-the-charts Block Design score has some of the same difficulties as my daughter with her lowest-score-possible Block Design.

[caniacfan]

Sharon, I think "connecting the dots" is a good way to explain it. My dd doesn't draw conclusions easily, in many areas of life, not just in school. My son is a lot like healthy's. He scored very high on block design (actually, he scored high on all the subtests of PRI). He's in 7th grade now so he hasn't encountered a lot of the "what is the author trying to say" yet, but I'm curious as to how well he'll do. For some reason, I think he'll be better at that type of thing. He sees the world differently from my dd, he's always been more intuitive and sees deeper meaning into things. However, he's also ADHD-Inattentive so anything could happen!

[michellea]

So many things go into abstract reasoning - many of them the executive functioning skills. For instance, less flexible thinkers (trouble shifting sets - common with ADHD) may come up with an interpretation and leave it at that. If directed to think differently or if reminded of other information, they may have the "reasoning" ability to come up with a better answer. In this case, it's not abstract reasoning that is getting in the way, but metacognitive issues.

My son does better on the VCI but scores in the high average on the PRI - so I wouldn't call his PRI skills deficits. Yet, there are times he misses the main point. He has trouble integrating information and getting caught up in the details. This came out in the rey complex figure drawing where he took a part to whole approach. This is another case of metacognitive difficulties related to EF and ADHD. Yet I have a same aged client that is exactly the opposite (big picture thinker, higher PRI than VCI) and on the suffice, his learning looks just like my son's.

What helps almost everyone - is a structured approach to think about new material, find relationships and patterns and connect it to what the learner already knows. Scaffolded questions that help peel back the onion can often help to lead the learner to a better understanding of the concepts.